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      07-09-2012, 07:07 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by WULFFZA View Post
To me, calling the Lime Rock edition a marketing fraud or simply an exploitation for profit, first of all, misses the entire point of the car and, secondly, just isn't supported by the numbers.

At an average price per car of $75,000, the total sales from these 200 cars is going to be around $15,000,000. Total 2011 BMW sales was just under 92 Billion dollars. That means these 200 Limerock cars is probably going to represent about 0.00016 of their 2012 sales. A proverbial drop ( a very small drop) in the BMW bucket.

Do they stand to make a large profit? Not really. Remembering that instead of selling 200 Limerocks at an average cost of 75K, they would be selling 200 ordinary M3s probably at an average cost of 60k. Their increase in profit by selling 200 Limerocks instead of the 200 garden variety M3s is a measly $213,000.00. BMW profit margin for 2011 was 7.1%. (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/09/bu...-for-2011.html)
There is nothing in the numbers related to these cars to support the conclusion of greed, fraud or exploitation. But, if it's not greed, then what's the motive behind this beast?

The answer, I think, is hidden in the press release. Where it says the car is meant to celebrate the relationship between BMW and Limerock park, what it really should say is: Skip Barber has a solid friendship with a person(s) in the BMW organization and the car is meant to memorialize that friendship. In other words, the car was born from two buddies getting together and having some fun . That's the way I look at it.
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      07-09-2012, 07:14 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Vbcarguy View Post
I agree this is a stupid model. They are loosing their edge.

The japolink article made me sad.
They are also losing their edge. No gain in performance but lots of trinkets is not a proud moment for the M division.
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      07-09-2012, 07:50 PM   #157
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As someone who took European Delivery of a Fire Orange M3 last month, I'm a little pissed.
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      07-09-2012, 07:59 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by M3ManiacSenior View Post
As someone who took European Delivery of a Fire Orange M3 last month, I'm a little pissed.
You got the car you wanted. The Lime Rock is just a few bits of crap that don't make the car faster or handle better.
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      07-09-2012, 08:04 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuddman View Post
To me, calling the Lime Rock edition a marketing fraud or simply an exploitation for profit, first of all, misses the entire point of the car and, secondly, just isn't supported by the numbers.
At an average price per car of $75,000, the total sales from these 200 cars is going to be around $15,000,000. Total 2011 BMW sales was just under 92 Billion dollars. That means these 200 Limerock cars is probably going to represent about 0.00016 of their 2012 sales. A proverbial drop ( a very small drop) in the BMW bucket.
Do they stand to make a large profit? Not really. Remembering that instead of selling 200 Limerocks at an average cost of 75K, they would be selling 200 ordinary M3s probably at an average cost of 60k. Their increase in profit by selling 200 Limerocks instead of the 200 garden variety M3s is a measly $213,000.00. BMW profit margin for 2011 was 7.1%. (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/09/bu...-for-2011.html)
There is nothing in the numbers related to these cars to support the conclusion of greed, fraud or exploitation. But, if it's not greed, then what's the motive behind this beast?
The answer, I think, is hidden in the press release. Where it says the car is meant to celebrate the relationship between BMW and Limerock park, what it really should say is: Skip Barber has a solid friendship with a person(s) in the BMW organization and the car is meant to memorialize that friendship. In other words, the car was born from two buddies getting together and having some fun . That's the way I look at it.
Err the average price of a fire orange E92 M3 is around $85k and that's not even a limited production. Limited edition cars usually go for even higher dealer mark-ups than just an orange or yellow M3's.

To be fair you have to add all the other bogus limited editions worldwide to the mix not just this one, also BMW has higher profit per car on those than the rest of the cars they sell.
Maybe not the BMW group but someone must be makin a killing on those cars.

http://www.cars.com/for-sale/coupe/b...bsId&pgId=2102
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      07-09-2012, 08:28 PM   #160
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      07-09-2012, 08:47 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
You got the car you wanted. The Lime Rock is just a few bits of crap that don't make the car faster or handle better.
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      07-09-2012, 08:52 PM   #162
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total marketing scam POS, stupid looking car that performs no better than a base M3
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      07-09-2012, 09:03 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuddman View Post
To me, calling the Lime Rock edition a marketing fraud or simply an exploitation for profit, first of all, misses the entire point of the car and, secondly, just isn't supported by the numbers.

At an average price per car of $75,000, the total sales from these 200 cars is going to be around $15,000,000. Total 2011 BMW sales was just under 92 Billion dollars. That means these 200 Limerock cars is probably going to represent about 0.00016 of their 2012 sales. A proverbial drop ( a very small drop) in the BMW bucket.

Do they stand to make a large profit? Not really. Remembering that instead of selling 200 Limerocks at an average cost of 75K, they would be selling 200 ordinary M3s probably at an average cost of 60k. Their increase in profit by selling 200 Limerocks instead of the 200 garden variety M3s is a measly $213,000.00. BMW profit margin for 2011 was 7.1%. (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/09/bu...-for-2011.html)
There is nothing in the numbers related to these cars to support the conclusion of greed, fraud or exploitation. But, if it's not greed, then what's the motive behind this beast?

The answer, I think, is hidden in the press release. Where it says the car is meant to celebrate the relationship between BMW and Limerock park, what it really should say is: Skip Barber has a solid friendship with a person(s) in the BMW organization and the car is meant to memorialize that friendship. In other words, the car was born from two buddies getting together and having some fun . That's the way I look at it.
I like your thinking, but then why charge $5,000 for individual colors that are simple base colors if its not about the money? Surely it doesn't cost much more to paint an orange car rather than a white one? Special order only with a deposit, I get that, pay extra for it, no. This model is special, but just in a marketing sense, it's not a special performance model that you would expect from a performance icon like the M3. I am tired of hearing about the cost of certification and emissions testing in the US being the reason we can't get models they get in other countries. The company is flush, hitting sales records every month. Won't suck up some losses for a halo car? You did for the Z8,
and look how it has been celebrated for 10years, why not for the M3?
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      07-09-2012, 10:05 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimoM3 View Post
You're arguments are ridiculous. So, because the brakes after heavy track use the car is all marketing? Pssht! And because the Limerock is orange it's a fake GTS?? WTF? Where do you come up with this stuff? BMW didn't clai it was a GTS. It's a special trim package on an ALREADY competent sport coupe that still butchers the competition 6 years into its lifecyle. Your argument was about the cars being all marketing, not whether the older ones were more "pure".

And yes, I've tracked all of my cars aside from my first Jetta at age 16 many moons ago. My e92 is awaiting production and I will be tracking the car at Laguna and T-Hill after break-in on the Nurburgring in September.
This is what BMW used to build as "Special Edition" models. I am not trying to argue with you but you miss my point - which was that this Lime Rock car is nothing but a marketing exercise. That is what BMW has been doing since the introduction of the E36 M3....which was a marketing exercise. That car was nothing more than a 332is....not a real M3.
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      07-09-2012, 10:28 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WULFFZA View Post
why charge $5,000 for individual colors that are simple base colors if its not about the money?
When I was touring the painting area at the Welt, the guide proudly told us it would only take 30 seconds to change paint colors on the assembly line. Naturally, I asked him: why then does it cost $5000 for individual color. He smiled but did not answer. I do not think it's factory cost related. I think it's dealer risk related.
I don't know about you, but $1,000 down at my dealer brought the car I ordered to the showroom. But what if, after seeing it, I decide to kiss off the $1,000 and walk away. The dealer is stuck with what is, quite possibly, a hard sell color. Which means he would probably have to discount it. It's a risk scenario a smart dealer is not going to ignore. Solution: get the $5,000 up front before the car is delivered and, oh, blame it on the factory. He just lowered his cost of risk. That's why I think some dealers will move a bit on the price of individual colors.
That's my take on it, anyway.
With respect to valuing the Limerock car, should that beautiful Fire Orange color be considered an option worth $5,000 included in the base price of the car? I think so.
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      07-09-2012, 10:44 PM   #166
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From the Jalopnik article.

"It's for guys who want to be associated with racetracks but don't actually go to the track themselves. It's for the modern poser racer. A luxury version of those fast and furious Honda civics with race seats and belts but stock engines that kids drive around on the street."

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      07-10-2012, 12:48 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cme View Post
This is what BMW used to build as "Special Edition" models. I am not trying to argue with you but you miss my point - which was that this Lime Rock car is nothing but a marketing exercise. That is what BMW has been doing since the introduction of the E36 M3....which was a marketing exercise. That car was nothing more than a 332is....not a real M3.
Fine, but take a look around the forum and see how many guys/gals have the carbon fiber trim pieces, M Performance exhaust, and are clammoring for special colors to be offered - especially fire orange. Now they are factory installed options as part of a last run "special" edition. BMW didn't have to do anything, don't you think this is better than nothing?

With that said, this car doesn't appeal to me either as I've said before, but I certaily don't think it's a "marketing exercise" or "poser mobile". What it is, definitively, is not as much as many of us would have liked from something named after a race track. I think that's where the rub is - it's named after a track car, but has the standard "competition pkg" rather than any real performance upgrades. Albeit, you could argue the exaust might be tad more free flowing and communicative.

My argument to your original comment was based on you saying that this car and all other M's of today are just a marketing exercise. That's crap. It's a different world with different regulations than it was 30 years ago. It's the last year of a six year old car with a new generation 3-series car already in showrooms and on the streets. Did you really expect them to homologate the 4.4l or build in new brakes, suspension, seats, or remove any noticeable weight this late in the lifecycle? Crash testing, certifying, etc? Would have been awesome, but so would a flying car be. Let's be realistic folks...

Again, Limerock Edition is not for me, but I certainly wouldn't hate on anyone for choosing it. Short of the wow factor for sure, but a purely marketing exercise it is not.
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      07-10-2012, 12:57 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
From the Jalopnik article.

"It's for guys who want to be associated with racetracks but don't actually go to the track themselves. It's for the modern poser racer. A luxury version of those fast and furious Honda civics with race seats and belts but stock engines that kids drive around on the street."

Yeah, becasue those guys don't buy standard M3's either...? Pssht. There's posers in every group and in every car and respective forum. There are kids who drive kitted GT3 Porsche's around my neighborhood that have zero idea how to handle the car around a track. And just the same, I know guys who can take a car like a miata with under 150hp and run circles around many of us in cars with three times that power.

This kind of sensationalist journalism sells magazines, ad space, and impressions. You want to talk marketing, that guy's overly critical article is just that. And, if you read all the way through, he contradicts himself countless times.
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      07-10-2012, 09:42 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by understeer View Post
Skip drives an E93 M3 with a DCT
Not anymore That car was destroyed over the weekend....

It was used for hot laps around Lime Rock and crashed in chicane...
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      07-11-2012, 05:22 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimoM3 View Post
You're arguments are ridiculous. So, because the brakes after heavy track use the car is all marketing? Pssht! And because the Limerock is orange it's a fake GTS?? WTF? Where do you come up with this stuff? BMW didn't clai it was a GTS. It's a special trim package on an ALREADY competent sport coupe that still butchers the competition 6 years into its lifecyle. Your argument was about the cars being all marketing, not whether the older ones were more "pure".

And yes, I've tracked all of my cars aside from my first Jetta at age 16 many moons ago. My e92 is awaiting production and I will be tracking the car at Laguna and T-Hill after break-in on the Nurburgring in September.
If you are coming to Germany for ED and going to N-ring, look us up (///M Flight). There are some "frequent flyers" that go there on regular bases from our ///M Flight club. We also do monthly meets and hit various places related to BMWs (tuners, shows, etc).
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      07-11-2012, 05:37 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Piotr View Post
If you are coming to Germany for ED and going to N-ring, look us up (///M Flight). There are some "frequent flyers" that go there on regular bases from our ///M Flight club. We also do monthly meets and hit various places related to BMWs (tuners, shows, etc).
Cheers - that's much appreciated. I'll be there 9/21-10/1 and was there last year at that time, too.

Looks like we're California neighbors too - I'm in the South Bay.
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      07-12-2012, 11:05 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
The E30 M3 sold so poorly in the US the E36 M3 almost didn't happen, now that is the true story.
Yet the E30 still has the best resale of any M3
If you can find one in excellent condition with low miles
It's worth more than sticker back when it was new
A lot more

Find me another BMW that has such good resale
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      07-12-2012, 11:39 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
From the Jalopnik article.

"It's for guys who want to be associated with racetracks but don't actually go to the track themselves. It's for the modern poser racer. A luxury version of those fast and furious Honda civics with race seats and belts but stock engines that kids drive around on the street."

So true. I've talked to a lot of M3 owners who spend thousands on 20 HP gain , coilovers and nice light weight wheels and rubber, but don't have any desire at all to even try the track.
The author is a total //M fanboi and has been with //M for many decades. He's seen special track edition cars with true performance improvements and this one is named after a legendary track with NO IMPROVEMENTS.
How can people not see why he'd be upset about it??

.
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      07-13-2012, 08:10 AM   #174
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      07-13-2012, 08:43 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
So true. I've talked to a lot of M3 owners who spend thousands on 20 HP gain , coilovers and nice light weight wheels and rubber, but don't have any desire at all to even try the track.
The author is a total //M fanboi and has been with //M for many decades. He's seen special track edition cars with true performance improvements and this one is named after a legendary track with NO IMPROVEMENTS.
How can people not see why he'd be upset about it??

.
Which track specials? The E30 Evo? Not sold here. M3 LTW? Sold for one year with the punched-out 325i engine, but wonder of wonders they're "hand picked" from all the other engines so you're guaranteed to get the best-performing punched-out 325i engine possible. At least it was lighter. FOR ONE MODEL YEAR, and oh by the way PTG were the ones who did final assembly, not BMW M. The E46? CSL wasn't sold here, maybe he's upset because the E46 Competition Package was such a huge improvement with its mouse-fur cruise-control delete steering wheel and wheels from a model we can't get here. What, exactly, was so much better 5, 10, 15, or 20 years ago in the US? M cars were still heavier and just as or more cushy than the base cars, M cars were still not up to prolonged track duty without improvements, M cars were still higher-performing STREET CARS and they always have been.

People are such goddamned whiners it's unbelievable.
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      07-14-2012, 10:44 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Yet the E30 still has the best resale of any M3
If you can find one in excellent condition with low miles
It's worth more than sticker back when it was new
A lot more

Find me another BMW that has such good resale
Z8's seem to be holding well.
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