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      06-28-2012, 10:54 AM   #1
BKsBimmer
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Obama healthcare law upheld by Supreme Court - Justice Roberts casts deciding vote

This is a major victory for the President. What now Republicans?
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      06-28-2012, 11:25 AM   #2
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I think I may be leaving the US.
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      06-28-2012, 11:33 AM   #3
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I think I may be leaving the US.
I agree!!!
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      06-28-2012, 11:40 AM   #4
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Don't have time now to read the decision, but I'm dying to know how they interpreted the Commerce Clause. Must be along the same lines are regulating crop growing, i.e., yes, it's a state thing, but it affects commerce over the whole US. Got to be something along those lines.
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      06-28-2012, 11:49 AM   #5
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I think I may be leaving the US.
One less vote for Romney
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      06-28-2012, 11:50 AM   #6
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I agree!!!
Correction, 2 less votes for Romney
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      06-28-2012, 12:13 PM   #7
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Correction, 2 less votes for Romney
Who says I am leaving before the election?
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      06-28-2012, 12:23 PM   #8
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Don't have time now to read the decision, but I'm dying to know how they interpreted the Commerce Clause. Must be along the same lines are regulating crop growing, i.e., yes, it's a state thing, but it affects commerce over the whole US. Got to be something along those lines.
Because it can be considered a tax, and Congress has the ability to levy taxes.

This is great news for our country.
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      06-28-2012, 12:34 PM   #9
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Don't have time now to read the decision, but I'm dying to know how they interpreted the Commerce Clause. Must be along the same lines are regulating crop growing, i.e., yes, it's a state thing, but it affects commerce over the whole US. Got to be something along those lines.
Actually, justice Roberts, casting the swing vote said it does NOT hold up under the commerce clause, but is acceptable as a form of fee or taxation. However, the others had split views of the commerce interpretation along party lines.

What amazes me is how the media has ignored the fact that Mitt Romney brought this into law in Massachusetts years ago, and it continues to be the law here. I know there are constitutional differences between state and federal, but most Americans don't care about that fine point, rather they seem to think that Obama is instituting something "new" and idealogically bad to us.
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      06-28-2012, 01:11 PM   #10
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What amazes me is how the media has ignored the fact that Mitt Romney brought this into law in Massachusetts years ago, and it continues to be the law here. I know there are constitutional differences between state and federal, but most Americans don't care about that fine point, rather they seem to think that Obama is instituting something "new" and idealogically bad to us.
Agreed. They constantly show him saying how he will defeat Obamacare, when he originally brought the idea up and put it in play in MA. I don't get that at all...
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      06-28-2012, 01:20 PM   #11
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...and on a lighter note...

http://imgur.com/jf4P2
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      06-28-2012, 05:10 PM   #12
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Forgetting the ideological/partisan implications of this (2 sides that will never agree with each other anyways), lets look at something perhaps less divisive: the cold, hard logistics of making it all work.

You dont need to look hard to find many examples of people enduring long waits to get medical procedures in places with universal health care like Canada.

Now, in a few years when all of this is more fully rolled out, we will have something on the order of 35-40 million more people who will now have coverage that didnt before. That is basically equivalent to the entire population of Canada, or almost double the population of Australia.

Who exactly is going to treat these folks who were reluctant to seek treatment before? How is it possible to pump that many new doctors, nurses, hospital beds, MRI machines, etc into the system in such a short period of time?

Of course there were some folks with no coverage who went before when they were at deaths door, so I'm not suggesting that those 40 million NEVER went to the hospital, and now they'll be going daily. However, if you must pay now to get coverage, there is no savings to be had by avoiding the doctor, so minor non-life threatening issues that people didnt seek professional treatment for previously, those folks will now be getting a lot more stuff looked at.

Without having hard quantitative numbers available, it is possible this will be seamless and trouble-free, but somehow I just think there is a big traffic jam coming in the future, I just dont know how big it will be... am I the only one who is concerned about this?

This is like making state universities free (everyone must must pay for tuition via taxes or something). If you didnt drastically increase the number of profs and classrooms, wouldnt that cause another logistics problem ?
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      06-28-2012, 05:16 PM   #13
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Now to a question--what impact will this have on voter interest, commitment, turnout in November?

Perhaps it will actually serve to mobilize the conservative base.
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      06-28-2012, 05:37 PM   #14
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I think I may be leaving the US.
Where do you plan to go?
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      06-28-2012, 05:44 PM   #15
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Now to a question--what impact will this have on voter interest, commitment, turnout in November?

Perhaps it will actually serve to mobilize the conservative base.
It did in 2010
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      06-28-2012, 05:50 PM   #16
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Now to a question--what impact will this have on voter interest, commitment, turnout in November?

Perhaps it will actually serve to mobilize the conservative base.
Or perhaps the Republicans will fall into the trap of taking their attention off of the economy and jobs and focusing on healthcare. This is not a winner for Romney and Republicans. Don't forget this is the same healthcare law that was Romneycare before it was Obamacare.
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      06-28-2012, 08:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Forgetting the ideological/partisan implications of this (2 sides that will never agree with each other anyways), lets look at something perhaps less divisive: the cold, hard logistics of making it all work.

You dont need to look hard to find many examples of people enduring long waits to get medical procedures in places with universal health care like Canada.

Now, in a few years when all of this is more fully rolled out, we will have something on the order of 35-40 million more people who will now have coverage that didnt before. That is basically equivalent to the entire population of Canada, or almost double the population of Australia.

Who exactly is going to treat these folks who were reluctant to seek treatment before? How is it possible to pump that many new doctors, nurses, hospital beds, MRI machines, etc into the system in such a short period of time?

Of course there were some folks with no coverage who went before when they were at deaths door, so I'm not suggesting that those 40 million NEVER went to the hospital, and now they'll be going daily. However, if you must pay now to get coverage, there is no savings to be had by avoiding the doctor, so minor non-life threatening issues that people didnt seek professional treatment for previously, those folks will now be getting a lot more stuff looked at.

Without having hard quantitative numbers available, it is possible this will be seamless and trouble-free, but somehow I just think there is a big traffic jam coming in the future, I just dont know how big it will be... am I the only one who is concerned about this?

This is like making state universities free (everyone must must pay for tuition via taxes or something). If you didnt drastically increase the number of profs and classrooms, wouldnt that cause another logistics problem ?
We have cousins in London, Ontario and I've lived and worked in Germany under the German healthcare system. There were no lines or waits for healthcare in Germany. It was awesome service. And our family members in Canada constantly boast about their healthcare. So where are these Canadians and Europeans who have such a hard time getting medical care?

Now having said that, the medical care in Germany (and all the other services Germans get) cost a bundle and that showed up in my paycheck every month. Still, working as a run-of-the-mill UPS driver I was doing ok financially. Not great and not getting rich, but no worse off than the same driver in the states. The real killer during my non-Army time in Germany was the price of gas. I got out of the Army owning a 633CSi. That didn't last long once I went to work for UPS and started paying German prices for gas.
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      06-28-2012, 08:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Because it can be considered a tax, and Congress has the ability to levy taxes.

This is great news for our country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Actually, justice Roberts, casting the swing vote said it does NOT hold up under the commerce clause, but is acceptable as a form of fee or taxation. However, the others had split views of the commerce interpretation along party lines.

What amazes me is how the media has ignored the fact that Mitt Romney brought this into law in Massachusetts years ago, and it continues to be the law here. I know there are constitutional differences between state and federal, but most Americans don't care about that fine point, rather they seem to think that Obama is instituting something "new" and idealogically bad to us.
Thanks. I read that later. So what he's saying is that you can't be forced into an act of commerce (buying insurance), but you can be taxed if you don't. Interesting. I guess that makes it like car insurance. They can't force you to buy car insurance, but driving without it will cost you a penalty.
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      06-28-2012, 11:55 PM   #19
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And our family members in Canada constantly boast about their healthcare. So where are these Canadians and Europeans who have such a hard time getting medical care?
Proper studies involving thousands of sample points can often paint a more accurate picture than the anecdotes of a friend or relative...



"The results of this year’s survey indicate that despite high levels of health expenditure and provincial wait time strategies, it is clear that patients in Canada are waiting too long to receive treatment."
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publi...?id=2147484001


"It's becoming clearer that Canada's current health-care system cannot meet the needs of Canadians in a timely and efficient manner, unless you consider access to a waiting list timely and efficient"
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/...es-fraser.html


"One dimension of the ECHI in which Canada fared particularly poorly was waiting times for medical services. In fact, Canada was among the very worst performers in this component of the index."
http://www.fcpp.org/publication.php/3222


And keep in mind, Canada has had universal health care for decades, so the system has had ample time to grow to meet the demands of the increasing population. What happens if you dump tens of millions of new people into the system at once, rather than the slow increase normally associated with population growth?

I dunno, it just seems to me that the likelihood of this causing a huge strain and backlogs on the system is higher than the chances of it absorbing this huge spike smoothly. That will decrease the quality of care for everybody.
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      06-29-2012, 12:17 AM   #20
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Quote:
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Proper studies involving thousands of sample points can often paint a more accurate picture than the anecdotes of a friend or relative...



"The results of this year’s survey indicate that despite high levels of health expenditure and provincial wait time strategies, it is clear that patients in Canada are waiting too long to receive treatment."
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publi...?id=2147484001


"It's becoming clearer that Canada's current health-care system cannot meet the needs of Canadians in a timely and efficient manner, unless you consider access to a waiting list timely and efficient"
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/...es-fraser.html


"One dimension of the ECHI in which Canada fared particularly poorly was waiting times for medical services. In fact, Canada was among the very worst performers in this component of the index."
http://www.fcpp.org/publication.php/3222


And keep in mind, Canada has had universal health care for decades, so the system has had ample time to grow to meet the demands of the increasing population. What happens if you dump tens of millions of new people into the system at once, rather than the slow increase normally associated with population growth?

I dunno, it just seems to me that the likelihood of this causing a huge strain and backlogs on the system is higher than the chances of it absorbing this huge spike smoothly. That will decrease the quality of care for everybody.
Well said. You have really good points. You cannot just expect to completely change the current system without there being any type of "buffer zone" or time for everything to adapt, or there will be a "traffic jam" type effect in play. This will obviously create chaos in the order people recieve care, and how long one must wait.

The next question I (and many) have is: How is all of this going to be funded? I don't think it's fair at all. It really just drills into your head; "Why am I working so hard? So I can pay for a high school dropout flipping burgers at Wendy's, healthcare??" The system is just unbalanced and unfair, and really gives you a slap in the face for working hard.
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      06-29-2012, 12:27 PM   #21
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Who exactly is going to treat these folks who were reluctant to seek treatment before? How is it possible to pump that many new doctors, nurses, hospital beds, MRI machines, etc into the system in such a short period of time?
...

am I the only one who is concerned about this?

Um, nope, apparently I am not the only one concerned about this logistical elephant in the room.....


http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/29/health...html?hpt=hp_c1


You could be the biggest supporter of this initiative in the world, but guess what, you'll be waiting in a line that is just as long as someone who is not a big fan of it.... good luck with that.
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      06-29-2012, 01:01 PM   #22
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So anyone here know how this will work? let me spell it out:

If you are an employer with 50 or more employees, you will either have to provide health care OR pay a tax of $2000 for every (full time equivalent) employee you have in excess of 30.

It gets better. A full time employee under this law is an employee that works 29 or more hours a week. No problem, just hire part timers below 29. NOPE. You take all of your part time employees, add the hours, and divide by 30. If this works out to 29 or more, then you have to pay healthcare cost or penalty.

IF you DONT have insurance, you must pay either 1% of your yearly income or $95 whichever is more.

This should be a great deficit neutral or reducing strategy....no doubt..... make me sick.


I was reading an article on HuffPo about small business and Obamacare, they interviewed this one business owner who said it best, something along the lines of: "If you have 60 employees, you have to downsize to 49. If you have 49 you dont hire...."

Last edited by txz4; 06-29-2012 at 01:06 PM.
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