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      06-11-2012, 09:57 PM   #1
OC3
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Big Willow 06.09.2012 (Shift-S3ctor)

A video from Big Willow on Saturday.



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And, some photos.

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      06-11-2012, 09:58 PM   #2
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      06-11-2012, 11:55 PM   #3
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Looks like a great time. Your car seems pretty loose - curious what mods/tires/suspension you have?

Good photos, too, that Ford GT looks like a step back in time in the Gulf livery.
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      06-12-2012, 01:54 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by signes View Post
Looks like a great time. Your car seems pretty loose - curious what mods/tires/suspension you have?

Good photos, too, that Ford GT looks like a step back in time in the Gulf livery.
Ever since I went DSC off, my car definitely does feel loose. This video & previous videos all show that. Perhaps MDM was masking that well before.

Ground Control sleeve kit (over ZCP dampers) with 450f/600r springs, -4.0f/-2.2r camber, 275/35/18 R-S3 on Apex 18x10 wheels.

I think may be I'll go 295 at the rear. Every time I try to go around corners fast, my car slides (gettin' lots of practice on counter-steering as a result).
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      06-12-2012, 03:37 AM   #5
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Been waiting for someone to post pictures! Thanks man.
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      06-12-2012, 12:49 PM   #6
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Might I offer a few suggestions that may drop a couple of seconds from your time. Not trying to pick anything apart, just done a lot of instruction with BMW on this track . Just here to help as I was in the high 1:30s at one point.

Your hands need to be at the 9 - 3 position permanently. Shuffle steering causes the brain to lose relativity of where straight is when unwinding the wheel on exit. Also, be sure to relax your fingers...tight grip of the wheel does not let us feel the wheel's feedback. Smooth inputs!

In turn 2, you want to be one cars width off of the inner edge. Too close in causes all kinds of issues with understeer to reach the cornerworker apex at the end. Additionally, once you have turned the wheel, you want to keep it held in that position for the entire turn. Once the wheel is set at the beginning of the turn, you use the gas pedal to modulate vehicle position and apex planning...(less gas brings you in-more gas pushes you out).

In 3, not sure if you had downshifted to 2nd gear and you had major traction issues...but the steering wheel went crazy. Even though it seems underpowered, I always only go to 3rd for smooth traction reasons. Smooth steering inputs are what keeps the car so well balanced.

In 5, I like to only apex the second apex (cone+grate) in this heavy of a car. If you stay center-left after the downhill braking, you can reach the second apex cone much easier which allows you to straighten the car out earlier for 6.

In 8, it isnt really even a turn if you enter mid track and stay mid-inner. That inside position is bumpy as hell and can sometimes unsettle the car when it comes time for the braking zone before 9.

In 9, taking such a shallow approach throws all of your exit speed to the left instead of straight down the straightaway. Try a more outside left edge approach and just before the last red mark point the car into the apex nice and late.

I think I saw you out there on some of my cooldown laps, if you were the black sedan. I was the white coupe M3 GURU plate.
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      06-12-2012, 06:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrip View Post
Might I offer a few suggestions that may drop a couple of seconds from your time. Not trying to pick anything apart, just done a lot of instruction with BMW on this track . Just here to help as I was in the high 1:30s at one point.
I welcome any feedbacks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrip View Post
Your hands need to be at the 9 - 3 position permanently. Shuffle steering causes the brain to lose relativity of where straight is when unwinding the wheel on exit. Also, be sure to relax your fingers...tight grip of the wheel does not let us feel the wheel's feedback. Smooth inputs!
Kinda hard to always have the hands at 9-3 position when the (my car being so loose) correction requires more than 180 degree steering wheel movement.


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Originally Posted by EuroTrip View Post
In turn 2, you want to be one cars width off of the inner edge. Too close in causes all kinds of issues with understeer to reach the cornerworker apex at the end. Additionally, once you have turned the wheel, you want to keep it held in that position for the entire turn. Once the wheel is set at the beginning of the turn, you use the gas pedal to modulate vehicle position and apex planning...(less gas brings you in-more gas pushes you out).
Re: off of the inner edge, yeah, I've had other people tell me that too. And, that definitely leads to understeer at the end of turn 2 when you approach the apex. I was doing something similar at Buttonwillow's Riverside 'til several months ago.

Re: using gas to steer, that's a bit of a scary proposition at that speed, but actually, at first lap of the day, the car did do mild 4-wheel drift outward when I modulated/increased the throttle at a bit past the mid-point of the turn. It was the usual amount of gas increase which normally didn't cause that before, so I thought perhaps it was because the tires weren't warmed up yet. In any case, I will focus on trying that next time.


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Originally Posted by EuroTrip View Post
In 3, not sure if you had downshifted to 2nd gear and you had major traction issues...but the steering wheel went crazy. Even though it seems underpowered, I always only go to 3rd for smooth traction reasons. Smooth steering inputs are what keeps the car so well balanced.
If I take that corner in 3rd gear (DCT), the rear end comes out very easily; but in, 4th gear, it does not. So, 4th gear is safe, but lacks power at that speed there.

I'm not sure how you're able to take that corner in DCT 3rd gear and not experience oversteers. You must be very gentle on the gas there?

As I got myself off of MDM permanently 4 track days ago, these (which gear in various corners, etc) are some of the experiments I find myself doing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrip View Post
In 5, I like to only apex the second apex (cone+grate) in this heavy of a car. If you stay center-left after the downhill braking, you can reach the second apex cone much easier which allows you to straighten the car out earlier for 6.
10-4


Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrip View Post
In 8, it isnt really even a turn if you enter mid track and stay mid-inner. That inside position is bumpy as hell and can sometimes unsettle the car when it comes time for the braking zone before 9.
Hmm, I've had other people tell me to hug the inner edge here, and gradually go to the outer edge as you approach the braking zone before 9...

8 is bumpy everywhere, actually, don't you think?


Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrip View Post
In 9, taking such a shallow approach throws all of your exit speed to the left instead of straight down the straightaway. Try a more outside left edge approach and just before the last red mark point the car into the apex nice and late.
It's great you mention this issue -> taking a "more outside left edge approach" at corners like that. As I follow fast cars, I see them doing exactly that. After braking, they stay on the outer edge, following those 3 outer cones there and then, seems to me as I watch from the back, take a rather sharp-angled right turn, and hence, do have a rather straight line as they enter the front straightaway; whereas, I wind up at the left trackout cone and move back to the center/right.

I witness that type of turning in many other corners (BW & other tracks) too. And, my question is, to execute that kind of sharp turn, don't you have to bleed off a lot of speed? And, if you do bleed off speed, you're starting the next straightaway at lower speed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrip View Post
I think I saw you out there on some of my cooldown laps, if you were the black sedan. I was the white coupe M3 GURU plate.
Yeah, black sedan.
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      06-12-2012, 09:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrip View Post
Might I offer a few suggestions that may drop a couple of seconds from your time. Not trying to pick anything apart, just done a lot of instruction with BMW on this track . Just here to help as I was in the high 1:30s at one point.

Your hands need to be at the 9 - 3 position permanently. Shuffle steering causes the brain to lose relativity of where straight is when unwinding the wheel on exit. Also, be sure to relax your fingers...tight grip of the wheel does not let us feel the wheel's feedback. Smooth inputs!

In turn 2, you want to be one cars width off of the inner edge. Too close in causes all kinds of issues with understeer to reach the cornerworker apex at the end. Additionally, once you have turned the wheel, you want to keep it held in that position for the entire turn. Once the wheel is set at the beginning of the turn, you use the gas pedal to modulate vehicle position and apex planning...(less gas brings you in-more gas pushes you out).

In 3, not sure if you had downshifted to 2nd gear and you had major traction issues...but the steering wheel went crazy. Even though it seems underpowered, I always only go to 3rd for smooth traction reasons. Smooth steering inputs are what keeps the car so well balanced.

In 5, I like to only apex the second apex (cone+grate) in this heavy of a car. If you stay center-left after the downhill braking, you can reach the second apex cone much easier which allows you to straighten the car out earlier for 6.

In 8, it isnt really even a turn if you enter mid track and stay mid-inner. That inside position is bumpy as hell and can sometimes unsettle the car when it comes time for the braking zone before 9.

In 9, taking such a shallow approach throws all of your exit speed to the left instead of straight down the straightaway. Try a more outside left edge approach and just before the last red mark point the car into the apex nice and late.

I think I saw you out there on some of my cooldown laps, if you were the black sedan. I was the white coupe M3 GURU plate.
Lots of good advice there, but I have to disagree about steering. There are a number of effective ways to steer a race car. Some of the better pros I've ridden with were shuffle steerers. Here is an interesting post on steering techniques:

http://sportscarforums.com/f7/steeri...ues-32259.html

And another:

http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Steering_techniques
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      06-12-2012, 09:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
It's great you mention this issue -> taking a "more outside left edge approach" at corners like that. As I follow fast cars, I see them doing exactly that. After braking, they stay on the outer edge, following those 3 outer cones there and then, seems to me as I watch from the back, take a rather sharp-angled right turn, and hence, do have a rather straight line as they enter the front straightaway; whereas, I wind up at the left trackout cone and move back to the center/right.

I witness that type of turning in many other corners (BW & other tracks) too. And, my question is, to execute that kind of sharp turn, don't you have to bleed off a lot of speed? And, if you do bleed off speed, you're starting the next straightaway at lower speed.
Slow in, fast out. With the kind of power and torque our M3s have, it's usually the fastest way for a corner that leads to a long straight. The idea is to be fully rotated quickly to be full throttle soon as possible. Ricky is quite good at this. I was surprised how much he slowed for some corners at Buttonwillow, but he is on the gas very early, very hard, and he deals with the consequences of power oversteer.
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      06-12-2012, 11:46 PM   #10
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Nice driving, video and editing. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice does... Looking good
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      06-13-2012, 02:58 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyoo View Post
Slow in, fast out. With the kind of power and torque our M3s have, it's usually the fastest way for a corner that leads to a long straight. The idea is to be fully rotated quickly to be full throttle soon as possible. Ricky is quite good at this. I was surprised how much he slowed for some corners at Buttonwillow, but he is on the gas very early, very hard, and he deals with the consequences of power oversteer.
Well said.


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Originally Posted by klammer View Post
Nice driving, video and editing. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice does... Looking good
Thanks mang.
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      06-13-2012, 04:08 AM   #12
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Jeesus, I can't keep up w/ you guys and the track time!!! Any job openings?? Great driving overall. So you were consistently 3 seconds slower without mdm? Interesting. Just a suggestion to kill the oversteer through 3, going deeper into the corner before turning in will lead to the car cresting the hill in a straighter line. If your still pulling lateral g over the crest even a fwd car will get sideways. Great video Tanner Foust! I'm so jealous of the norcal trip.
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      06-13-2012, 06:41 PM   #13
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^Yeah, 10-4 re: going deeper into corner before turning.

Re: NorCal trip, wish you could join us. The stars have lined up. It's going to be epic. For those who are wondering, a bunch of us SoCal people are doing Thunderhill (Fri), Infineon (Sat) & Laguna Seca (Sun). Hope our cars & tires hold up, lulz.
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      06-13-2012, 06:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
I witness that type of turning in many other corners (BW & other tracks) too. And, my question is, to execute that kind of sharp turn, don't you have to bleed off a lot of speed? And, if you do bleed off speed, you're starting the next straightaway at lower speed.
No. And here's the reason why.

What you're seeing, is that the INITIAL turn-in of those faster cars happen earlier, but at a slower pace. So the weight is allowed to transfer gradually and smoothly to the outside wheels, thus giving the outside FRONT wheel far more grip than say, were you to turn in quickly and sharply. The end result is they can make a much "sharper" turn, or a turn that requires more steering input, while maintaining a superior entry speed as opposed to not using all of your front end's available grip while using up more than you've got in the rear.
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      06-13-2012, 07:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
No. And here's the reason why.

What you're seeing, is that the INITIAL turn-in of those faster cars happen earlier, but at a slower pace. So the weight is allowed to transfer gradually and smoothly to the outside wheels, thus giving the outside FRONT wheel far more grip than say, were you to turn in quickly and sharply. The end result is they can make a much "sharper" turn, or a turn that requires more steering input, while maintaining a superior entry speed as opposed to not using all of your front end's available grip while using up more than you've got in the rear.
It may happen earlier & at a slower pace, but from my view from the back, there is at some point a rather acute/sharp change in car's angle.

This is going to be a challenge to practice & get it right.
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      06-13-2012, 10:57 PM   #16
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Your hands are much faster than in the BW vid you posted with the spins.
The line could be better. I'm still learning that track, and turn 9 in particular. I took a ride with an instructor and he was flat on the floor way before the apex at 9. I didn't have the balls for it. It's probably what HACK is talking about with smooth but sharp turn in, so you can get on the gas much earlier, though it didn't seem that sharp to me. I just don't like how you're braking and turning entering 9.

HACK, will there be a 2 day Willow event this year? I know the CCA got some crappy weekends after dropping off for a year.

.
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      06-14-2012, 09:50 AM   #17
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The two day weekend will either be at WSIR or Spring Mountain. The big question is if the Spring Mountain expansion plan will be completed on time. Currently I'm leaning toward WSIR the first weekend of December. Luckily I don't have to make a decision for a few more months.
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      06-15-2012, 02:04 AM   #18
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How'd the drive up today go? And hey if you can remember, do you know what that Boxster Spyder was running? My dad had one and sold it before letting me get it on the track So I'm extremely curious as to what they can do.
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