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      06-09-2012, 10:31 AM   #45
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Someone once posted something that I will share. It went something like this - No one in an M3 ever pulled up next to 335 at a stop light and said to them self, "damn, I wish I got that car".
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      06-09-2012, 04:38 PM   #46
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for all those who mentioned fuel economy as a factor..... efff offffff. The only reasons you would care about gas mileage are
a. You cant afford the extra 150 bucks a month on gas!!
b. your a enviro friendly, green, tree hugger
c. gas mileage is a priority as a purchase decision
If you are either of these or think gas mileage is a priority then the M3 or any GT performance car should never be a thought... buy a prius
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      06-09-2012, 06:36 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
As a little background to my ownership situation, did Euro delivery both on the 335 and on the M3, drove both on various track (including the Nordschleife) and had both cars lightly modified: a chip on the 335i and muffler on the M3. As far as street driving, they were both my daily drivers (the M3 until recently).

Let's start with the 335... I loved the sound, power delivery and tuning capability of the 335i. It can be made quite quick for very little money, has excellent tractability in town due to the torque and good throttle response (very little lag) and definitely gets better gas mileage than the M. It's a good car, responsive, adjustable, not much understeer, a class act. On the debt side, the runflats are complete rubbish, the suspension inadequate (especially tuned), the open diff spoils the fun and the reliability suspect (mine had wastegate problems since day 1).

The M3 is simply put in a different class in all these metrics, except fuel economy. It rides better than the 335 with the EDC suspension, sound even better and the throttle response is absolutely incredible. It's the Ferrari of the sport sedans, no doubt about it. Compared to previous M3's, it handles better than the E46 (better damping and less understeer) and than the E36 (better damping and possibly less understeer) but of course feels a bit heavier than both - because it is. It has a very throttle-adjustable attitude, especially in faster corners (you have to be quick to respond in the slower corners), it works with you well beyond the limit and this makes it a very confidence inspiring car to drive in all conditions. This very poise and confidence is what makes it such an incredible drive in the rain, even on track.


If you are looking to marry the 335's daily driving capabilities with the M3's suspension/handling, then the 1M is a good compromise - with the added bonus of a significantly lower weight than the M3. It has most of the M3's suspension bits, comes already tuned from the factory, and is super-rare. A future collector's item IMO. The 335is might also be close, but it still rides on ruflats and has an open diff (and is expensive).

Hope this helps...
Great post.

I can't write much but suffice to say it just feels like another class of car.

Although I think the 335i is the best value in its (own) class.
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      06-10-2012, 07:53 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Denver View Post
for all those who mentioned fuel economy as a factor..... efff offffff. The only reasons you would care about gas mileage are
a. You cant afford the extra 150 bucks a month on gas!!
b. your a enviro friendly, green, tree hugger
c. gas mileage is a priority as a purchase decision
If you are either of these or think gas mileage is a priority then the M3 or any GT performance car should never be a thought... buy a prius
* Well, I do care about the environment and I don't see why caring about the environment and not being purposefully wasteful means I have to drive a Prius. You're probably one of the guys who thinks running CATLESS for a few extra HP is OK too.

* OP, I love the engine in the car and how your can stretch it out over its long rev range and to me, it makes it that much more rewarding to drive than a turbo-charged car. The engine in the 1/335 makes effortless power but it doesn't quicken my pulse because the car requires so little interaction to keep it within it's power band. I don't need to drive much so I need to enjoy driving the car when I do.

* Regarding the Fuel Economy, I would like more if it were better: poor fuel economy + small fuel tank means you're always at the gas station. I get about 250 km a tank in the city and about 300 km on the highway. As my low fuel light comes on with a 100 km or so left in the tank, I constantly feel like I'm stopping for gas. (And as someone else as mentioned, the car is also super thirsty at the track - make sure you have access to gas - as I can barely get to noon without needing a top-up)

* Despite what I've said above, If taking long drives in this car is not your primary reason for getting it (it's capable but there are better GT cars for this), I'd get the M3 as the driving experience is more special. I think the 135/335 are competent vehicles, but rather souless: a German appliance as tuned from the factory. Really bland. But, now even though I've had the M3 coming up to four years now, the car still feels special when I fire it up.
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      06-10-2012, 11:47 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by M3Denver View Post
for all those who mentioned fuel economy as a factor..... efff offffff. The only reasons you would care about gas mileage are
a. You cant afford the extra 150 bucks a month on gas!!
b. your a enviro friendly, green, tree hugger
c. gas mileage is a priority as a purchase decision
If you are either of these or think gas mileage is a priority then the M3 or any GT performance car should never be a thought... buy a prius
This post has already been refuted both adequately and elegantly, but let me add just one other factor - a technical one:

From my point of view, this is an incredibly good car, with an amazing array of capabilities, but the M guys should be ashamed of themselves in the one area of fuel economy.

On technical grounds, there is no way a 3600 pound car with a four-liter engine should get mileage this bad. Just no way. Horsepower is not an important issue in this regard, since the EPA tests are so gentle.

And get off your snob horse (see A and B, sbove). Any person with even a few firing neurons should have some concern about fuel usage.

Personally, if I see just one more report on "Bad News for Polar Bears", I may vomit. How about a "Good News for Arctic Seals" report instead.

That said, it's clear that there will be continuing pressure on fossil fuel availability and pricing from now on. Politically, I don't give a damn about gas hogs, but better mileage from any given performance package is a no-brainer good thing - and it seems clear the M guys missed the boat on this. Simple gearing changes could improve the M3's EPA numbers, and tuning can address throttle response issues that might arise.

Hell, if the current Mustang and Camaro entries can beat up on the M3, mileage-wise, and even the RS5 appears to be better in that regard, then BMW has screwed up in this regard, for no obvious reason.

I'm personally a fan of the M3's top-gear acceleration and throttle response, but would be willing to give some of that up in favor of respectable highway mileage.

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      06-10-2012, 01:16 PM   #50
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Please correct if I'm wrong but I believe any car any that has this kinda power so high in the rpm range gets poor fuel mileage. That's a tradeoff I'll HAPPILY make. It's simple math really. The more rpm's your using, the more fuel your using. Even the Wankel powered 1.3 liter rotary in the now deceased RX-8 got piss poor mileage. That thing revved over 9k rpm and strangely consumed oil, just like some of ours...hmmm. It's a matter of priorities. I'll take the lack of fuel economy for all the other attributes the car has.
I think the only only exception to this engine rule right now is the Coyote V8 that Ford builds for the Mustang. It's efficient, revs high and has alot of power uptop but still only revs to 7.5k rpm I believe. Great engine but I'll still live with what I have, ANY DAY.
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      06-10-2012, 01:27 PM   #51
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      06-10-2012, 02:26 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muskamatt View Post
everyone on here is comparing the 335 to the m3. This is not the right argument to make. Listen to what the OP is saying...I am never going to rev more than 3k, I want fuel economy, traffic is terrible and I am concerned about fuel prices. Shame on you M3 owners for saying yeah you should really get an M3 to do those things. That is silly.

That sir is an argument to get yourself a 328i or even better, whatever has the nicest darn seats you can sit in cause apparently that is pretty much the most exciting thing you will be doing in your vehicle. You literally argued the fact that there is no point to having a performance vehicle cause you won't use it the way it is intended. If that is the case then don't spend 20k on something you wont use!

(give it to me instead)
Your comments are so far off base it really defies description.

You have no idea my level of automobile enthusiasm, my full realm of auto driving, much less anything else. Having built race car engines, worked on exotic cars (Lamborghini), road raced motorcycles, etc., I love motorsports, but some performance vehicles are better suited to my urban driving conditions than others. Of course I would prefer the M3, but there will be some compromises vs the 335i, and if not too severe, would still opt for the M3. If I was as you described, I would have never owned a prior M3 or ridden stiff riding ucomfortable motorcycles. The suggestion I get a 328i is absurd.

I don't know where your hostility comes from, but it serves no useful purpose here other than to steer people to other forums. Thankfully, some others here did provide useful information.
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      06-10-2012, 02:29 PM   #53
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      06-10-2012, 02:37 PM   #54
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Screw it, just get both and your problems are solved. That's how i did it....
You should have just bought one nicer car like a Porches!
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      06-10-2012, 03:20 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warranty View Post
OP, I just recently purchased an E90 M3 myself and went through some of the same thought processes as you: 335i or M3? Like you, I need a 4-door (kiddie taxi), and I live & work in Bay Area so I know that most of the time I'd be driving way under the speed limit--probably in traffic--so fuel economy is a factor, and there's some of that "is it really worth the extra $$ just to have a few seconds of more fun a day?" question.

Honestly, for me the dilemma came down to be about money, and I imagine it's probably the same for you (but I can't speak for you): am I willing to spend a little more to purchase and run an M3, or put that money towards something else? At the end, I said "f*ck it, I've done a lot to save and provide for my family, now I want to get something DADDY WANTS."

Somebody else put it very succinctly this way: 335 enthusiasts will wish they could upgrade to an M3, but no M3 driver would ever wish they had gone with a 335 instead. It's simple as that. 335 is a nice car in its own right, but M3 is much more special. It's a dream car for those of us who need 4 doors.

So, I can't tell you what to do, but I'll tell you this: now that I got the M3, I've never again even spent a nanosecond thinking about "what if I saved the money and got a 335i instead?". On the contrary, I have a ear-to-ear shit-eating grin on my face every time I get behind the wheel of my M3...even in traffic. Why, all the more reason to row through the gears of my 6MT! Heck, even going to the store to get diapers is fun because staring at that power dome reminds you that you're going to get Huggies in machine engineered by gearheads who accepted very little compromises.
I am the OP and welcome the many responses. Many were helpful (with a few exceptions). Responses by TTG, ADC, Pharmdphd98, Warranty, and others were good.

The bolded sections above hit home. Yes, the M3 IS special. It may not be needed or ideal for my driving environment, but just driving a car like this, at ANY time, ANYWHERE can be rewarding. Those comments reminded me that I found my old M3 enjoyable ALL the time, whether through a school zone, pulling hard at high rpm, or flinging it down a back road, or just a brisk ride with wife and daughter.

My Porsche Cayman S is more narrowly focused with more compromises for street driving which is what gave me pause on the new M3. Has the focus on constantly increased performance (great!) resulted in compromises in the M3 that are really just too much for a typical urban environment?

Responses so far make it easier now to understand the real question. Of course the 335i (or something far less) is the best sedan for the majority of my driving...if you look at it from a purely practical point of view and exclude passion and lust for fine performance engineering that sits in your garage, ready to devour pavement, straight or winding, with grace, speed, control, precision, luxury, and sound. You may not use all it can offer, but you can still feel and enjoy a lot of the soul of the car at any speed.


Phil
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      06-10-2012, 03:23 PM   #56
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Are you planning to drive these cars or write a discertation/thesis on them?
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      06-10-2012, 04:28 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNate View Post
Please correct if I'm wrong but I believe any car any that has this kinda power so high in the rpm range gets poor fuel mileage. That's a tradeoff I'll HAPPILY make. It's simple math really. The more rpm's your using, the more fuel your using.
Except in the EPA tests, minimum shift speeds are used in order to get the best results, and your simple math isn't useful in that example. I do agree, however, that very high performance cars tend to not do well, mileage-wise. However, I still think that the M guys could've done better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNate View Post
Even the Wankel powered 1.3 liter rotary in the now deceased RX-8 got piss poor mileage. That thing revved over 9k rpm and strangely consumed oil, just like some of ours...hmmm. It's a matter of priorities.
Poor example. Every Wankel suffered from poor economy due to an amazing amount of surface area in the combustion chamber, leading to major heat loss and major pollutants because of massive boundary layer problems. These were solved through the use of draconian emissions controls which further hurt fuel economy. Oil use was a part of the design, though. They fed the end seals with no way to collect that oil, therefore letting it be consumed in the combustion process. Another factor in the draconian emissions controls.

Loved that engine, though. Had an RX4 in '74.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNate View Post
I'll take the lack of fuel economy for all the other attributes the car has.
Hell yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNate View Post
I think the only only exception to this engine rule right now is the Coyote V8 that Ford builds for the Mustang. It's efficient, revs high and has alot of power uptop but still only revs to 7.5k rpm I believe. Great engine but I'll still live with what I have, ANY DAY.
The new RS5 is estimated by Audi to come in at 15/22, city/highway, and that car weighs about 400 pounds more than the M, according to Car and driver. More power and similar red line, as well.

My ONLY point is that I think the M guys dropped the ball in this one area. Otherwise, the car is damned close to being a paragon.

Bruce
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      06-10-2012, 05:14 PM   #58
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best $ to performance ration 335I, for every thing else M3
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      06-10-2012, 07:55 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by pharmdphd98 View Post
Screw it, just get both and your problems are solved. That's how i did it....
You should have just bought one nicer car like a Porches!
I love having cars with different characters and the N54 is a great engine for daily driver. Porsche is great sports car but simply too impractical.
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      06-10-2012, 08:12 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil3 View Post
I am the OP and welcome the many responses. Many were helpful (with a few exceptions). Responses by TTG, ADC, Pharmdphd98, Warranty, and others were good.

The bolded sections above hit home. Yes, the M3 IS special. It may not be needed or ideal for my driving environment, but just driving a car like this, at ANY time, ANYWHERE can be rewarding. Those comments reminded me that I found my old M3 enjoyable ALL the time, whether through a school zone, pulling hard at high rpm, or flinging it down a back road, or just a brisk ride with wife and daughter.

My Porsche Cayman S is more narrowly focused with more compromises for street driving which is what gave me pause on the new M3. Has the focus on constantly increased performance (great!) resulted in compromises in the M3 that are really just too much for a typical urban environment?

Responses so far make it easier now to understand the real question. Of course the 335i (or something far less) is the best sedan for the majority of my driving...if you look at it from a purely practical point of view and exclude passion and lust for fine performance engineering that sits in your garage, ready to devour pavement, straight or winding, with grace, speed, control, precision, luxury, and sound. You may not use all it can offer, but you can still feel and enjoy a lot of the soul of the car at any speed.


Phil
Another factor is the transition from a Cayman to either car, unless your keep both. I think Cayman to 335 is a definite downgrade, whereas Cayman to M3 isn't (coming from a former Cayman S 987.1 and 987.2 driver).

I converted to the E92 M3 world after borrowing a E92 M3 instead of my Cayman for a track event, I was blown away by how much more capable the car was at the limit.
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      06-10-2012, 08:48 PM   #61
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The 335i is a great DD. The M's suspension geometry is currently second to none though. Although, I personally think their main rival Mercedes-Benz has come pretty close with the C63 AMG. I love feedback I'm getting through the twisty stuff. I know exactly what the tires are doing. Unfortunately, that's not the case at slower speeds. The steering gets too light.
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      06-10-2012, 08:50 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Except in the EPA tests, minimum shift speeds are used in order to get the best results, and your simple math isn't useful in that example. I do agree, however, that very high performance cars tend to not do well, mileage-wise. However, I still think that the M guys could've done better.



Poor example. Every Wankel suffered from poor economy due to an amazing amount of surface area in the combustion chamber, leading to major heat loss and major pollutants because of massive boundary layer problems. These were solved through the use of draconian emissions controls which further hurt fuel economy. Oil use was a part of the design, though. They fed the end seals with no way to collect that oil, therefore letting it be consumed in the combustion process. Another factor in the draconian emissions controls.

Loved that engine, though. Had an RX4 in '74.



Hell yes.



The new RS5 is estimated by Audi to come in at 15/22, city/highway, and that car weighs about 400 pounds more than the M, according to Car and driver. More power and similar red line, as well.

My ONLY point is that I think the M guys dropped the ball in this one area. Otherwise, the car is damned close to being a paragon.

Bruce

Are you HotIce's smurf or something? You two do nothing but rag on the M3. The S65 simply put, is an engineering marvel.
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      06-10-2012, 11:01 PM   #63
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I love having cars with different characters and the N54 is a great engine for daily driver. Porsche is great sports car but simply too impractical.
Then you should've bought a GT3 and a Cooper S!

But seriously, I think my M3 is as good as a daily as my sisters 335i and more fun in every department! Thanks to M button and specially EDC!
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      06-11-2012, 12:31 AM   #64
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Then you should've bought a GT3 and a Cooper S!

But seriously, I think my M3 is as good as a daily as my sisters 335i and more fun in every department! Thanks to M button and specially EDC!
Good suggestion, I will trade all my cars in tomorrow for one Porsche and a Mini...LOL

I agree with you that M3 is fine as a daily driver but the low end torque in the N54 is really enjoyable plus the 1 series is a fun car in its own way, smaller and and more like the traditional BMWs.
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      06-11-2012, 12:35 AM   #65
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Good suggestion, I will trade all my cars in tomorrow for one Porsche and a Mini...LOL

I agree with you that M3 is fine as a daily driver but the low end torque in the N54 is really enjoyable plus the 1 series is a fun car in its own way, smaller and and more like the traditional BMWs.
indeed! and N54 is sounds phenomenal
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      06-11-2012, 02:02 AM   #66
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indeed! and N54 is sounds phenomenal
Being able to enjoy my 135/335 at legal speeds helps to keep me from getting arrested for hauling ass in my M3. Well worth it!
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