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      06-07-2012, 08:36 AM   #67
Robin_NL
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Interesting stuff. Following the 7 speed manual Porsche box. Great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
The best performance isn't always the most fun; people might prefer a Miata, S2000, or Cayman over other cars that might be faster but don't have as engaging a feel. And why are you hung up on getting an "objective reason" for what's better? Most of the appeal of cars, whether it's paint color, engine note, handling feel, overall styling, or yes, even transmission, is inherently SUBJECTIVE, and it's by those subjective measurements that people decide what is most appealing or enjoyable to them. For many people, the "objective" superiority of a DCT/PDK doesn't hold a candle to the subjective enjoyment of the clutch/blip/shift rhythm, always chasing the perfectly smooth shift, and the sense of accomplishment when YOU get it just right rather than just pulling a paddle and having the computer do it right for you every time. There's a certain joy that comes from honing a craft and getting more out of a car as you invest more effort into it. And no, BMW's manuals aren't the best, but for many they're still better than the alternative.

Drive what YOU want, but there's no reason why you should expect objective reasoning for people's preferences when it comes to cars.

Have you ever even owned a manual transmission driver's car?
Well spoken.

Example: I prefer a McLaren F1 to a Veyron anytime.

Autoboxes can make the car feel like playing GT5 on the Playstation(having owned a F10 535i 8AT I 'm entitled to say that, or what?), but they are functional and fast nowadays, but take a lot of subjective fun out of the driving experience imo.

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      06-07-2012, 10:57 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post

I always find it amusing to hear the "must have manual" crowd chime in about connectivity or engagement. You will be significantly slower and at times make mistakes when shifting...something that will never happen with PDK/DCT/etc.
The thing is, we manual drivers know DCT's will shift faster, but that is not the end all, be all for us. They are both completely different driving experiences.
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      06-07-2012, 01:55 PM   #69
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      06-07-2012, 02:16 PM   #70
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The upcoming BMW 1er City Compactive is a key strategic car for BMW and possibly the most important car for BMW at this time because it is a mass volume product that is expected to increase not only profitability but BMW's sales to over 2 Million units by 2020.

Combined with MINI BMW are looking at total FWD units sales @ 600,000 units per annum. Making up a serious amount of overall BMW sales.
Both the MINI and the BMW will be so technologically and economically advanced to take advantage of a growing demand for premium small cars something that MINI has proved to be very adaptable at , now BMW will be joining in with the scope to bring a revolutionary new driving concept to the segment so advanced in everyway over its competitors , expect the next generation MINI and the upcoming BMW City Compactive to stand out in not only offering luxury car technology but highly advanced efficiency through new solutions including transmissions in both manual and automatic format.
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      06-07-2012, 04:28 PM   #71
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The thought of changing 7 gears manually does seem a lot of work. Especially when semi-automatics are advancing all the time.
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      06-07-2012, 07:36 PM   #72
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I have a 135i with the DCT and my father has a 991 911 with the 7 speed manual. He picked it up earlier this week, and I had my first opportunity to drive it extensively last night.

For anyone complaining that 7 gears is just too many to shift through (or too much work ?!), remember that with a real manual you don't have to shift sequentially. 2nd gear is good for 75 mph, so in theory you could jump straight from 2nd to 7th. In general I was shifting from 4th into 7th on the highway, dropping into 5th to pass. 7th gear is really high, so I'd probably downshift into 6th on steep climbs. I didn't once have trouble selecting the intended gear. If you've never accidentally shifted into reverse then you wouldn't have any problems with it.

I got the DCT so that my girl friend could drive the car. It's a decent compromise, but I definitely had more fun with the manual last night than I have pushing buttons in my car. Sure, I can't shift as fast with a manual, but there's more to enjoying driving than absolute speed.
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      06-07-2012, 10:22 PM   #73
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cool. as long as it is not too intrusive, but I bet BMW will get it right
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      06-08-2012, 02:16 AM   #74
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Why are we even discussing 7 or 8 speed manual gearboxes? Oh wait...fuel economy. Unfortunately gas prices are going up; It is not only due to the demand for a dying resource, but because we have to please tree hugging hippy politicians worldwide: Lets go "green" in the auto industry- We might slow the pollution process down, but in the end we humans will continue to pollute earth till the day we die, or at least till the day the earth dies.... So f*ck it, let's make some gas guzzling beasts, go back to traditional gearboxes, and have some fun!
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      06-08-2012, 09:19 AM   #75
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That's amazing! Don't know how they do it ay....
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      06-08-2012, 10:44 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Power_Fan View Post
i think that - in today's cars and today's technology - a manual gearbox doesnt make sense at all.

i think that DCT, speedshifts and stuff is faster, more suitable on a racetrack and paddles on wheel are cool anyway
But even enthusiast are a track once a month (at the most). I enjoy shifting my gears daily. I may be .3 seconds slower than you in a race, but the joy is worth it.
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      06-08-2012, 10:53 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panoz7 View Post
For anyone complaining that 7 gears is just too many to shift through (or too much work ?!), remember that with a real manual you don't have to shift sequentially. 2nd gear is good for 75 mph, so in theory you could jump straight from 2nd to 7th.....

.......I can't shift as fast with a manual, but there's more to enjoying driving than absolute speed.
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      06-08-2012, 12:41 PM   #78
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I agree with the fact that you can jump from 2nd to 7th, and 7th is unnecessary unless on a big motorway anyways, so it will work especially for people who dont want to run through all 7 gears(I do it in my six speed sometimes when I'm lazy). But they design these new cars for mpg. It's a waste because many people will buy these cars for fuel economy and will hurt his or her own fuel consumption by jumping gears, you're either under revving hurting your motor, or running the revs high in the low gears, wasting more gas to satisfy the rpms to jump to the final gear, compared to just running through each gear properly, so what's the point? I know the gear jumping supposedly applies to apply to enthusiasts that dont want the hassle of 7 gears, but come on, who drives a manual these days that isn't an enthusiast, we are a dying breed. I could care less about mpg, but on a long trip i do as well like to conserve fuel, but i shouldn't have to run through 7 gears to obtain this, 6 is already enough!
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      06-08-2012, 01:06 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csween86 View Post
It's a waste because many people will buy these cars for fuel economy and will hurt his or her own fuel consumption by jumping gears, you're either under revving hurting your motor, or running the revs high in the low gears, wasting more gas to satisfy the rpms to jump to the final gear, compared to just running through each gear properly, so what's the point? I know the gear jumping supposedly applies to apply to enthusiasts that dont want the hassle of 7 gears, but come on, who drives a manual these days that isn't an enthusiast, we are a dying breed. I could care less about mpg, but on a long trip i do as well like to conserve fuel, but i shouldn't have to run through 7 gears to obtain this, 6 is already enough!
Briefly revving a low gear up to high RPM to jump straight to a very high gear is more fuel efficient than working your way up to moderate RPMs in each intermediate gear, especially when you could jump from 2>7. It's not a huge savings, but considering automakers are doing things as drastic as switching to electric steering for a fairly trivial increase in fuel economy, they'll take what they can get.

As for only enthusiasts driving manuals, have you been outside the US? In Europe about 80% of cars are manual transmissions; hell, one of the tour buses I was on in Italy had an 8-speed manual. The reason is that cars are a hell of a lot more expensive pretty much everywhere else in the world, so the marginal cost of a slushbox is MUCH more significant there, so most people get manual. And consequently, pretty much everyone everywhere else knows how to drive stick, so it's not seen as some sort of enthusiast Jedi power the way it is here. In fact the enthusiasts and wealthier people are almost always driving SMG/PDK/DCT if their cars can be ordered thusly. They wouldn't impress anybody by driving driving stick, so they opt for the added performance and status symbol of the newer automated alternative.

And that's why the M5 can be ordered with a manual transmission only in the US.
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      06-08-2012, 01:17 PM   #80
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Sorry i seem to think this an american post a lot of times, and i talk as if im speaking only to Americans. I Lived in Germany for three years and saw a lot of Europe, so yes I know that most people drive manual, and yes most shitty and small busses there use manuals too, buts it's opposite in the US. In Europe most would love an auto because there is so much traffic, especially "staus" in Germany that people just don't want to deal with manuals anymore. But i do not agree with you on the saving fuel by jumping from 2nd to 7th. By jumping to 7th you're either under revving and forcing the engine to work harder to get up to speed, or revving high early on to satisfy 7th gear revs thus burning more gas compared to just gradually and conservatively building up the rpms. Run through each gear to its optimal rpm range and you will get best gas mileage. If you don't care about mpg and want to get through the gears as quick as possible be my guest, I do it all the time... Not like going either route makes much of a difference anyway
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      06-08-2012, 01:35 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csween86 View Post
Sorry i seem to think this an american post a lot of times, and i talk as if im speaking only to Americans. I Lived in Germany for three years and saw a lot of Europe, so yes I know that most people drive manual, and yes most shitty and small busses there use manuals too, buts it's opposite in the US. In Europe most would love an auto because there is so much traffic, especially "staus" in Germany that people just don't want to deal with manuals anymore. But i do not agree with you on the saving fuel by jumping from 2nd to 7th. By jumping to 7th you're either under revving and forcing the engine to work harder to get up to speed, or revving high early on to satisfy 7th gear revs thus burning more gas compared to just gradually and conservatively building up the rpms. Run through each gear to its optimal rpm range and you will get best gas mileage.
Regardless of torque, a motor is most efficient at larger throttle openings and lower revs than smaller throttle openings and higher revs. There's a reason that GM uses the 1-4 skip shift on their six speed manuals. In city driving, I'll frequently use 1-3-5 and get 2-3 mpg better than if I use each gear.

Similar logic applies to my wife's 135i slushbox which shifts below 2k rpm every time, unless it's in DS. Using your theory of shifting where the torque and power curves cross, around 5.2k rpm with the N54, she'd probably get single digit mpg.

Funny thing is that while working in Germany for four years, I think all but one of my colleagues drove manual cars, and most skipped gears.
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      06-08-2012, 01:44 PM   #82
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Yea i skip gears all the time too...I never said anything about shifting at the meeting of the power and torque curves, and at 5000 and whatever rpms... My 135i owners manual clearly tells me which rpm I should run each gear to for optimal fuel consumption. It's usually above 2500 and below 3,000 rpm, i don't have it right in front of me. But hey, maybe I'm a noob and there are better ways to do it, but for now I'm going to trust BMW on this one.
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      06-08-2012, 01:59 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by csween86 View Post
Yea i skip gears all the time too...I never said anything about shifting at the meeting of the power and torque curves, and at 5000 and whatever rpms... My 135i owners manual clearly tells me which rpm I should run each gear to for optimal fuel consumption. It's usually above 2500 and below 3,000 rpm, i don't have it right in front of me. But hey, maybe I'm a noob and there are better ways to do it, but for now I'm going to trust BMW on this one.
That will make it more fun to drive, but will clobber your mileage. Just try shifting under 2k and then reset the onboard computer and try shifting at 3k. My M Coupe required more rpm as it had a lot less low end torque, but the N54 can be shifted quite low and will return reasonable mileage when you do so.
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      06-08-2012, 02:08 PM   #84
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I hear ya. I'll try it out. I only take my 135i out on the weekend, or in nice weather for fun. I have another car for my dd so I never get good gas mileage with the 135 anyway But when I have to travel far to an autocross event I usually just get on the interstate and get into 6th ASAP and just relax... Seems to work fine... I could be wrong but, i think if I did follow what the manual says that I would get a tad better gas mileage, but I haven't cared enough to test it out lol.
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      06-08-2012, 02:30 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by csween86 View Post
I hear ya. I'll try it out. I only take my 135i out on the weekend, or in nice weather for fun. I have another car for my dd so I never get good gas mileage with the 135 anyway But when I have to travel far to an autocross event I usually just get on the interstate and get into 6th ASAP and just relax... Seems to work fine... I could be wrong but, i think if I did follow what the manual says that I would get a tad better gas mileage, but I haven't cared enough to test it out lol.
Fair point, just don't go looking for 7th.
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      06-08-2012, 02:54 PM   #86
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Sorry to blab on, ill stop after this. I agree with all of you guys to a certain extent. Much of what im trying to say is i think if you find yourself in a situation for example where you want to save gas, and you rev up high let's say merging onto a highway to keep
up with traffic, I agree it's probably best to just go ahead and skip a gear or two to save gas since your already at higher revs, no need to go through the other lower gears. But If you had the opportunity to merge onto that same highway without being forced to accelerate hard to keep up with traffic and then skip to the final gear, i think slowly and steadily shifting each gear to its manufactured recommend range would suffice the best fuel economy.
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      06-08-2012, 08:45 PM   #87
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Great to see hope for us purists. I simply enjoy manually shifting to much. It's a connection I feel is lost on an auto.
agreed. im a die-hard manual fan.
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      06-09-2012, 09:37 AM   #88
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This is dumb. Why not just do sequential shifting electromechanical gate?
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