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      06-02-2012, 03:43 AM   #67
Jewbacca
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post

I don't want the government making these sort of decisions, quality cuts, judgements. Show up, pay your fee, you are legit. However, if a church does or does not want to "marry" someone it should be their call.
BINGO!
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      06-02-2012, 03:53 AM   #68
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2) I don't care if someone is gay or not as it doesn't affect me but they shouldn't be allowed to marry because there will be lots of abuse to the system as marriage will be between anyone and the rights will be abused.)
My Father's been married 5 times and is going on #6 in a few months (he's 80 years-old, by the way)...there's plenty of "abuse" already with hetero couples!
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      06-02-2012, 03:57 AM   #69
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The flaw? As in, only 1 flaw? Oh, you are funny !
What...funny haha, like I'm a clown...do I amuse you?
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      06-02-2012, 02:02 PM   #70
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dog in this fight

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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
and i'm not democrat nor republican. i'm not a US citizen, but i must say, your politcal system entertains me regularly
You don't have a dog in this fight and it looks like your system is having its own severe problems. So as my dear Grandmother used to say "if you like in a glass house, you shouldn't throw stones". Plus you're not even living in your own house. You're living in mine...........
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      06-03-2012, 05:38 AM   #71
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56. Masturbation is a sexual sin/transgression and seen as cheating on your existing or future spouse

Not gonna cut it as a Mormon.
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      06-03-2012, 08:33 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by mspeasl View Post
You don't have a dog in this fight and it looks like your system is having its own severe problems. So as my dear Grandmother used to say "if you like in a glass house, you shouldn't throw stones". Plus you're not even living in your own house. You're living in mine...........
You may be right about my system, but at least we don't have an equivalent of the republican party over there

I can throw as many stones as I need to
Is this not the land of the free?
Or does that only apply to citizens?
Practice what you preach etc

I ain't living on your house
I'm paying the same taxes as you
So I could be paying for some of the services you are receiving
You're welcome
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      06-03-2012, 09:16 PM   #73
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I don't get why liberals love high taxes and government so much. Government does nothing but waste the taxpayers money and it gives them nothing in return. Do you really believe that the SS and Medicare I'm paying from my taxes will be there for me in the future? I think not.
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      06-03-2012, 09:37 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
Mitt Romney and the Republicans say it's off limits and don't want to talk about it, but I really want to know more about it. Can someone explain it.

Is Mormonism the same as Christianity and if not, in what ways does it differ from Christianity?
I guess I will bite at this one. For the record, I am a devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons). I do not, however, speak for the church. I am also neither a Republican or Democrat.

As I read through this thread, I was surprised at a lot of the misinformation floating around. To be honest, a lot of the information presented in this thread just isn''t true or have things that are taken way out of context. I don't see any advantage to going back through and correcting the misinformation and I am not here to either defend or justify any beliefs. I post here to give a perspective from someone that lives the faith devoutly.

Mormons consider themselves Christian. The foundation of the church is the belief that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that He atoned for our sins, died on the cross at Calvary, and was resurrected. We believe that it is through the grace of Christ that we can be saved. We believe that He lives today as a resurrected being (see http://www.mormon.org/jesus-christ/).

One of the main difference between mainstream Christianity and Mormonism lies in the difference in beliefs of the trinity. Mainstream Christianity largely adopts the Nicene Creed (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creed_of_Nicea). In this, the idea that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are of the same "substance" is given. Mormonism does not adopt this and teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. Because of this fundamental difference, many mainstream Christian religions will say we worship a different God than they do and therefore are not Christian. I don't argue it either way.

There are, of course, a lot more theological differences if you talked about various doctrines and interpretations of scripture, but my understanding is that this is the fundamental difference of why mainstream Christianity does not consider Mormons as Christian.

The LDS church was founded in 1830 by a man named Joseph Smith. His testimony was that after praying about which church to join he received the literal visitation of God the Father and Jesus Christ. In this visit, he was instructed that the full truth of the gospel had been taken from the earth at some point after Christs ascension into heaven and that the world had fallen into apostasy and that part of his mission was to restore the full truth to the earth in preparation for the second coming of the Savior (see http://www.mormon.org/joseph-smith/).

We believe that Joseph Smith was given a set of gold plates by an angel. These gold plates related the history of the American continent from about 600BC to 400AD. These plates were translated into English and this comprises the Book of Mormon. We consider this book as scripture similar to the Bible and we believe that both books are Gods word to his prophets on the earth at the relative times of the books. A focal point of the Book of Mormon is that after Christ was resurrected in Jerusalem he visited the American continent (see http://www.mormon.org/book-of-mormon/).

Beyond popular belief, we don't practice polygamy. It was banned from the church in the late 1800's and those that do choose to practice it today are excommunicated.

We believe that God continues to speak to prophets today. We believe that the family is the cornerstone of happiness in life and the cornerstone of society. We believe in eternal progression and that we existed before our mortal life and that we will exist after our mortal life and that the bonds of family can and do exist after death.

Today there are about 14 million members of the church worldwide.

There of course is a lot more to it, but I think these are the fundamental teachings of the LDS church. For more information, please visit http://www.mormon.org.
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      06-04-2012, 01:09 AM   #75
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I don't get why liberals love high taxes and government so much.
Completely off topic, but we don't. You've once again repeated the #1 republican talking point, despite the hundreds of posts in dozens of threads you've seen which say otherwise. That's the textbook definition of ignorance, and the reason that debating with you is a waste of time, because nothing anyone posts ever seems to register with you.
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Originally Posted by EvosM3 View Post
Government does nothing but waste the taxpayers money and it gives them nothing in return.
Do you literally mean this, or are you wildly exaggerating? Because at this moment, the US govt is providing millions with medicaire and SS (partially paid-in by individuals), defending our country, funding our military, providing billions in education assistance, infrastructure, R & D, and keeping our 3 branches of govt going, so we can have laws and judgements. Feel free to go somewhere and start your own anarchist society. Maybe try Mexico, it worked for Romney's family.
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      06-04-2012, 01:21 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by 128vertinnoho View Post
http://listverse.com/2008/02/04/top-...ormon-beliefs/

http://peanutroaster.hubpages.com/hu...Banned-Cartoon

1. Polygamy is still doctrinal in heaven and included in LDS scripture. See D&C 132

2. Sports should not be played on Sunday

3. TV or movies should not be viewed on Sunday (except Church or "happy" media)

4. Children should not be allowed to play with friends on Sunday

5. Working on Sunday is strictly discouraged and really only not looked down on if you're an emergency response personnel, or other on-call emergency type jobs (doctors, police, firemen, nurses etc)

6. Rated R movies should be strictly avoided

7. 10% of your gross income (tithing) needs to be paid to the bishop/church before you pay for any other financial obligations, bills, food or other purchases

8. Coffee and tea are prohibited even though they aren't specifically referenced by doctrine

9. For some families, all caffeinated drinks and sodas are prohibited

10. If you have dark skin and convert to Mormonism, your skin will begin to lighten/whiten

11. You become a God/Goddess and are given powers to create your own worlds without number

12. You should not be alone in a room or car with a member of the opposite sex to "avoid even the appearance of evil"

13. Beer is prohibited even though it is scripturally allowed (D&C 89:17) "...and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain" Beer was openly consumed in Utah by Mormons until Prohibition made it unpopular and the practice ceased.

14. The Garden of Eden was in Missouri when Adam and Eve were kicked out

15. All saints are to return to Missouri before the final arrival of Jesus for the Second Coming. Some believe this exodus back to Missouri would be on foot.

16. Two LDS Elders or Missionaries will stand and protect the city of Jerusalem during Armageddon, as spoken of in Revelations and D&C 77:15

17. Native Americans are the descendants of the Lamanites spoken of in the Book of Mormon

18. The LDS Temple marriage is considered superior to all other religious marriage ceremonies and must be obtained if you want to be with your spouse in the after life. Not married in the temple? Too bad, no spouse/partner in the after life.

19. Love isn't as strong between couples and families who are not LDS

20. Follow the prophet or leaders even if you think they are wrong

21. Criticism of prophets or leaders will lead you towards apostasy

22. Don't use Ouija boards, face cards or tarot cards. They are of the devil.

23. The US Constitution will hang by a thread and be saved by LDS Elders before the 2nd coming

24. Women were discouraged from wearing pants up until the late '60s or '70s

25. 3 Nephites still rome the Earth from Christ's visit to the America's, blessed by Him to not experience death until his second coming

26. The moon will literally turn to blood during second coming crisis

27. Heavenly Mother/Goddess exists, but she/them are too sacred to discuss and cannot be worshiped or prayed to

28. Only Mormon's can go to the highest degree of heaven, which is why proxy ordinances are done in LDS temples for as many dead people as LDS Inc can get their hands on

29. Kids or babies who die before reaching 8 years old are perfect and automatically get into heaven

30. Missionaries can curse people by dusting their feet off as a witness to them rejecting the gospel

31. Satan has power over the oceans, lakes and rivers which is why LDS Missionaries are not allowed to swim

32. Satan can't read your thoughts so praying silently can help keep some of your secrets from him

33. Dating is strictly prohibited until you're 16 and then only group dating is allowed or encouraged until you can marry after your mission or marry a return missionary

34. Doctrinal polygamy gives the 1st wife authority to reject any prospects she doesn't like. This was never really practiced though.

35. Women who fail to marry in the temple during their life will be assigned a worthy spouse in the hereafter and likely as a sister wife with a harem of women

36. Black people bear the curse of Cain and were born black because they were less valiant in the pre-existence (pre-Earth life) and sat on the fence as to whether to follow Satan/Lucifer or Jesus

37. Cremation will make being resurrected harder, having to recollect all of your atoms/molecules from where ever they were spread

38. God the father is only one of millions or endless Gods who are all basically relatives, fathers, brothers, grand-gods and so forth to our own God. If we're worthy, we get to join the God club too.

39. From the polygamy days, a man had to have at least 2 wives to get into the highest degree of heaven

40. A woman's purpose in heaven is solely to birth endless babies to populate the worlds created by their husbands. Billions and billions of babies!

41. Gestation is still 9 months in heaven

42. You are better off dying trying to fend off a rapist than to survive as a victim of rape, your virginity forever stolen from you

43. Temple garments or underwear will protect you from physical harm or the grasp of Satan

44. Girls can only have one piercing in each ear. No piercings allowed by boys/men.

45. Tattoos are a big no-no and should never be allowed to defile your bodies. If you have tattoos when you convert, you may be encouraged to pay for laser removal at your own expense.

46. Flip-flops are not to be worn in the church building

47. All forms of birth control (condoms, pills, etc) are discouraged and the couple should allow as many children into their home as God decides to send them

48. The Earth was not created by God, but by Jesus and Michael/Adam as taught in the LDS Temple endowment ceremony

49. Secret hand shakes, keywords and signs are provided in the Temple endowment as passwords and keys to get back into heaven, like a kids club where only those with the secret passwords can get in

50. The church partners with Boy Scouts of America for the development of males but does not endorse nor partner with the Girl Scout programs or similar female development programs

51. The Holy Ghost is threatened or turned away by bars, clubs and "dirty" places so will not protect you or guide you if you choose to enter such filthy places

52. Mormon Garments must be worn day and night, only removed for sex, showering and some sporting activities

53. Women must wear their bras and panties over their garments, as the garment should be the layer closest to the skin for maximum protection

54. If you're not a Mormon, or are unworthy without a temple recommend, you get excluded from the Temple wedding ceremony of loved ones, kids, siblings or best friends

55. Mormon's do feel there is something special about them, or that they are better than non-mormons. Having the ultimate "truth" does that to people.

56. Masturbation is a sexual sin/transgression and seen as cheating on your existing or future spouse

57. Sexual transgression is a sin next to murder in God's eyes

58. Jesus atoned for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, not on the cross

59. Jesus wasn't born of a virgin. God had natural sex with Mary to impregnate Jesus

60. You can't get into heaven without Joseph Smith's permission

61. You can visit loved ones in lower kingdoms, but you cannot visit higher kingdoms of heaven if you didn't merit it yourself, though they can visit you (see D&C 76)

62. You can tell the difference between a good angel, bad angel or resurrected being by their willingness or ability to shake your hand

63. No rainbows shall appear during the year before Jesus' second coming

64. If you've had a sex change, you cannot ever hold any callings/jobs in the church and only get baptized at the express permission of the First Presidency/prophet

65. Role playing games, like D&D, are also evil

66. Dinosaur fossils are to test our faith, and likely came from matter left over from past destroyed planets that were used/recycled to create Earth

67. When a prophet or leader errors, it was because he was acting as a man and not as a prophet. There's no indication until after the fact as to whether he was acting as one or the other, so you should always presume he's acting as prophet until proven otherwise

68. Free agency and choice is revered, but don't make the wrong choice or we will judge, look down on and guilt you until you either stop making said wrong choices

69. Once the prophet or brethren have spoken, the thinking has been done. Don't question it.

70. When someone leaves the church, it is God's way of separating the wheat (good mormons) from the chaff (bad, evil apostates)

71. Jesus was supposed to come in the year 2000, that is until he didn't

72. God is a resurrected, extra terrestrial, exalted human male who lives on a planet near a star called Kolob. See Book of Abraham, chapter 3 in Pearl of Great Price

73. Even though Jesus had a beard, we aren't allowed to have facial hair while attending the Lord's University, BYU, and are discouraged or flat out not allowed to have facial hair in high up leadership positions, despite early leaders all having beards

74. The LDS Temple questions somewhat encourage the shunning or disassociating with anyone who is anti, apostate, or against the church. This may include family members, close relatives or best friends if they end up leaving the church.

75. The "Inspired" Joseph Smith translation of the bible is more correct than the KJV

76. Joseph Smith's money digging and glass looking were actually God's way of preparing him for his role as a prophet and revelator.

77. Our dead relatives and angel friends can see us when we sin, and so even when alone, it is not safe to masturbate or do anything "bad".

78. The Holy Ghost goes to bed at midnight, so all dates, sleepovers, or other activities by youth or single people need to end by midnight or else you won't have protection or guidance against the temptations of the devil

79. Hoard enough food, water and fuel to survive 3-12 months or more

80. Women must wear modest clothing that extends to the floor while kneeling down (shorts, skirts etc) and that covers the shoulders and upper arms, no revealing of the midrift, no bikini swim suits, no tank tops, no spaghetti straps etc

81. Satan's real name in the Pre-existence is Lucifer, even though that name is only used once in the Old Testament

82. The ancient Jews were the only people who would kill Christ and therefore the most wicked people in the universe

83. So long as the US/America's stay righteous, aka, primarily Christian and God fearing, they will not be attacked by foreign powers or enemies (stems from the tradition laid out in the Book of Mormon that righteousness equals protection from enemies by God etc).

84. The Earth is a living entity that must also go through ordinances, death and exaltation. The Flood of Noah was the Earth's baptism. The fire and burning at the 2nd coming will be the baptism by fire and immediately after, exaltation to a perfect sphere of glass

85. The Earth was once in orbit around Kolob, but was expelled when Adam fell from the Garden of Eden. It will again return to that orbit after the millennium.

86. If you don't make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, you will be gender-less in the after life. No sex or sex urges for you in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms.

87. When people leave the church and can't leave it alone (despite being psychologically and emotionally damaged by it), it is called "kicking against the pricks", and is fulfillment of prophesy.

88. There are people living on the moon. LINK They dress much like Quakers and they are tall, many standing seven feet tall or more. One day we will send missionaries to teach them the gospel. There are also people living on the sun. Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 217

89. Brigham Young (2nd LDS prophet) taught that Adam was the literal God of the Earth and Earth's family

90. If you serve valiantly as a missionary, you'll be blessed with a beautiful and righteous spouse when you return

91. If you hold your right arm to the square and invoke the power of the priesthood, you can cast out devils, divert floods and lava flows, and baptize others

92. Women covenant in the temple to "observe and keep the law of the Lord and hearken unto the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Father"

93. All covenant in the temple "to sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God"

94. We covenant to "avoid all lightmindedness, loud laughter, evil speaking of the Lord's anointed, the taking of the name of God in vain, and every other unholy and impure practice"

95. More, we covenant in temples to "accept the Law of Consecration as contained in theDoctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion"

96. Garments represent the garment God/Jesus made and gave to Adam when he discovered his nakedness in the Garden of Eden

97. Women are most valued when in the home, rearing children and taking care of domestic affairs (laundry, dishes, house cleaning, etc)

98. In the temple marriage covenant/ceremony, women "give [themselves] to [their husband] to be his lawful and wedded wife" and men "receive her unto [himself] to be [his] lawful and wedded wife for time and all eternity"

99. If a widow remarries a man for time only, and bears him children, those children will belong to her first and sealed husband in the eternities

100. Before a woman can remarry in the temple for eternity, she must first get a temple sealing annulment, which can only come at the approval of the First Presidency, and will likely not be allowed if the first husband is deceased

101. Women were at one point allowed to give blessings by the laying on of hands, but that practice was ended when they were found to be more successful at healing than the priesthood holding men

#55 explains Romney perfectly!

http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/pr...efs-of-mormons
Doesn't sound so bad.







Oh wait...











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      06-04-2012, 01:27 AM   #77
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Back when I was a mindless bible banger I used to love to debate with basically everybody concerning their messed up beliefs vs. my perfect and correct ones LOL

I don't even remember much about it but since mormons have the BOM (book of mormon) AND use the bible (or claim to), there are doctrinal inconcistencies etc. Doctrine of salvation, doctrine of faith, doctrine of god... yaddi yadda yadda

Things like (BOM) "God has a flesh and bones body" (bible) "God is spirit"

Shit like that. Thankfully I redlined far away from religion a long time ago.

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      06-04-2012, 12:52 PM   #78
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1561137.html

Without illegal aliens, felons, and dead people the dems are finished as a party. They know that without their fraud, they could never get elected. That's why the IN-justice department is stopping Florida from cracking down on illegal voters. Your liberal party should be non-existent if we had a government that didn't allow illegals and dead people to vote.
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      06-04-2012, 02:49 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvosM3 View Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1561137.html

Without illegal aliens, felons, and dead people the dems are finished as a party. They know that without their fraud, they could never get elected. That's why the IN-justice department is stopping Florida from cracking down on illegal voters. Your liberal party should be non-existent if we had a government that didn't allow illegals and dead people to vote.
When are you going to stop posting foolish, stupid, baseless thoughts and conjecture? The article you reference doesn't even remotely support your commentary.

If anything, between the well documented dying-off of republicans, and the expansion of urbanesque suburbs, it's the GOP that's doomed. In any case, I'd recommend you research how to go about posting fact-based viewpoints, or just stop posting.
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      06-04-2012, 04:40 PM   #80
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...............and dead people to vote.
JFK - Chicago Nov 1959. Oh, guess who else lived there? This is not a new tool for the Dems
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      06-04-2012, 05:16 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
When are you going to stop posting foolish, stupid, baseless thoughts and conjecture? The article you reference doesn't even remotely support your commentary.

If anything, between the well documented dying-off of republicans, and the expansion of urbanesque suburbs, it's the GOP that's doomed. In any case, I'd recommend you research how to go about posting fact-based viewpoints, or just stop posting.
Same time you stop praising obama for nothing.
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      06-04-2012, 06:52 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvosM3 View Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1561137.html

Without illegal aliens, felons, and dead people the dems are finished as a party. They know that without their fraud, they could never get elected. That's why the IN-justice department is stopping Florida from cracking down on illegal voters. Your liberal party should be non-existent if we had a government that didn't allow illegals and dead people to vote.
So you are ok with the State of Florida restricting the rights of eligible voters? Have you read up on what they have been doing in Florida? They have all but tried to stop voter registration. It is so restrictive, that basically if you are an individual that tried to register someone to vote, and you don't get the registration into the Secretary of State's office within 48 hours, you get fined up to $1000. So imagine a school teacher in a civics class, trying to their students that are 18 and over to register to vote. If that teacher does everything within their power to get the registration cards to the state, yet for whatever reason they get it to the office in 49 hours, well guess what, that teacher is now going to personally face a huge fine, and the voter registration won't be valid. Sounds like the state of Florida is actively trying to make it difficult for individuals to register to vote. Sounds downright un-democratic to me, in fact it sounds very totalitarian.

Previously the state allowed for 10 days to get the registrations in. Why a need to make that time less?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...ote-in-florida

EvosM3, it sounds like you would rather not let people exercise their constitutional right to vote.
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      06-04-2012, 06:55 PM   #83
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Same time you stop praising obama for nothing.
Hmmm, how's Bin Laden being dead working out for ya?
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      06-04-2012, 08:36 PM   #84
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Same time you stop praising obama for nothing.
Hmmm, how's Bin Laden being dead working out for ya?
Yep, Obama went out and killed him Rambo style. Oh yea, it was a gutsy move, because you know if the military tells you they have very strong evidence they know where Osama is, it would be tough to give them the ok to go get him.
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      06-04-2012, 09:03 PM   #85
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Hmmm, how's Bin Laden being dead working out for ya?
While I will give him credit for going into Pakistan to get him and for not deconstructing the anti-terrorism network that had been created post 9/11, I don't really know if he really had a choice. If he had a chance to get Bin Laden and chose not too, how do you sell that to the American public? Because we all know at some point that would get leaked that he had a clear shot and didn't take it. But what I don't agree with was what happened afterword. With the post mission press conference and the information leak about how the mission worked and what units were involved. Not to mention doesn't Bush get some credit as well? Just because we didn't get him when he was in office doesn't mean that his efforts for all those years didn't count. I believe that it has been reported that some of the information that was used to find him was directly related to Bush's efforts.
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      06-04-2012, 09:06 PM   #86
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While I will give him credit for going into Pakistan to get him and for not deconstructing the anti-terrorism network that had been created post 9/11, I don't really know if he really had a choice. If he had a chance to get Bin Laden and chose not too, how do you sell that to the American public? Because we all know at some point that would get leaked that he had a clear shot and didn't take it. But what I don't agree with was what happened afterword. With the post mission press conference and the information leak about how the mission worked and what units were involved. Not to mention doesn't Bush get some credit as well? Just because we didn't get him when he was in office doesn't mean that his efforts for all those years didn't count. I believe that it has been reported that some of the information that was used to find him was directly related to Bush's efforts.
So you're saying that he did something, which is the opposite of nothing, which was e90soflo's comment. Some of you may or may not agree with the President's policies, but you can't go around saying he has done nothing, it's dishonest at best.

Here is a list of accomplishments President Obama has done:

http://obamaachievements.org/list

Saying that has done nothing is a bald faced lie.
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      06-04-2012, 09:44 PM   #87
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So you're saying that he did something, which is the opposite of nothing, which was e90soflo's comment. Some of you may or may not agree with the President's policies, but you can't go around saying he has done nothing, it's dishonest at best.

Here is a list of accomplishments President Obama has done:

http://obamaachievements.org/list

Saying that has done nothing is a bald faced lie.
I can't and won't support e90soflo's comments, but I was just responding to your comment. I was just stating that I didn't think it was that hard of a call to make. If all the information that we know was true, then the biggest decision was to go into another country to get him. But again how could you as a president stand and defend the decision not to go after him just because he was in another country that we have a strained relationship with anyways? Pakistan probably knew he was there the whole time and is probably helping our enemies in the region too.

Do you think Bush deserves any credit?

How about the base and personnel in Guantanamo?

And that website you linked sure looks far to the left to me. How about a far right one listing all of his failures to even things out?

http://obamalies.net/list-of-obamas-failures
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      06-05-2012, 04:59 AM   #88
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