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      05-21-2012, 11:10 AM   #177
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Is this thread serious?
Sadly it is..thought we were being trolled but scary enough the OP actually believes this nonsense..oh well ..what r u gonna do?
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      05-21-2012, 11:31 AM   #178
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As interesting as some of the info in this thread is, it's all based on the flawed assumption that DCT is safer than 6spd.... Which in itself is an outrageously individual opinion.

If you drive a DCT, then you'll have a hand free to text..... Maybe that's why you wanted it...
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      05-21-2012, 11:32 AM   #179
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cant believe this thread is for real. OP....it doesnt matter what kind of transmission you have it all comes down to have safe the driver is.

you should change the title to " How come i don't know how to drive maunal" lol
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      05-21-2012, 01:01 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Ohferchrissake. Your participation here began with a somewhat snotty reply to Radiation Joe, taking him to task for his use of threshold braking in a track environment.
If you taken the time to read back through the thread you would see it was in fact RJ who called me "Flat out wrong" using his track experience as justification in reply to my first post in this thread.
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      05-21-2012, 05:22 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
If you taken the time to read back through the thread you would see it was in fact RJ who called me "Flat out wrong" using his track experience as justification in reply to my first post in this thread.
Yes, my bad (sort of).

And he was flat out right calling you flat out wrong.

Yeah, yeah, we've already agreed that threshold braking is almost impossible to properly achieve in a typical street environment, so it's better to flat go for ABS - but that doesn't mean that ABS can stop you as fast as threshold braking can.

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      05-21-2012, 06:05 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
If you taken the time to read back through the thread you would see it was in fact RJ who called me "Flat out wrong" using his track experience as justification in reply to my first post in this thread.
True comment.

I've stayed out of this fray since I believe the ABS systems are very good. Under a panic situation, I'm sure once the ABS initiates, I would be foolish to try to modulate the rest of the stop.

However, it has been my track experience that if ABS initiates, for whatever reason, my corner is a throw away. I do believe that most competent drivers familiar with their cars, can brake better, consistently, without ABS.

And back on topic: My DCT was frightfully unsafe.
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      05-21-2012, 11:18 PM   #183
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I am really amaized at how few people know how to drive a manual. Please go and do advanced driver training and learn!!! If you think you can drive and you dont need it stick to the DCT cause with some of the statements made DCT is the safer option you will never experiance the added thrill of MT.
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      05-22-2012, 05:32 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
- but that doesn't mean that ABS can stop you as fast as threshold braking can.

Bruce
Interesting that in pretty much every major race car category that allows ABS, few (if any) teams choose to run without it.
In one Porsche series where 996 were allowed ABS but 997 not, the 996 would always make up ground under braking.
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      05-22-2012, 07:39 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Interesting that in pretty much every major race car category that allows ABS, few (if any) teams choose to run without it.
Y'know, I've always considered you to be a pretty smart guy and a general voice of reason, but I guess we all have our blind spots.

To state the absolutely, completely, utterly obvious, of course you'd go with ABS if it were allowed. Even though you'd stay out of ABS normally, it could save your butt if you got into a grease spot, or thrown-up gravel, or whatever. Duh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
In one Porsche series where 996 were allowed ABS but 997 not, the 996 would always make up ground under braking.
I call BS. Prove it unequivically, please. And by the way, let me know about other rule differences between the two cars.

Bruce

PS - If you know any race drivers, ask them about threshold braking vs ABS. Then maybe we can stop boring everyone else with this conversation.
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      05-22-2012, 08:09 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Y'know, I've always considered you to be a pretty smart guy and a general voice of reason, but I guess we all have our blind spots.

To state the absolutely, completely, utterly obvious, of course you'd go with ABS if it were allowed. Even though you'd stay out of ABS normally, it could save your butt if you got into a grease spot, or thrown-up gravel, or whatever. Duh.
I don't get why so aggressive but hey clearly you don't like folk disagreeing with you, So I'll leave you to it.
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      05-22-2012, 11:12 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I don't get why so aggressive but hey clearly you don't like folk disagreeing with you, So I'll leave you to it.
I'm perfectly fine with disagreements, but get testy after something has been explained three or four times and the person still doesn't get it.

Look, do yourself an educational favor and Google "abs vs non abs stopping distance". Then you can sort through around three billion entries showing reduced stopping distance with threshold braking compared to ABS.

Pay close attention to those entries that quote the Skip Barber, Jim Russell, Bob Bondurant (et al) positions on the subject.

Of course, we still agree on what I consider the main point to be, which is that, on the street, going for ABS is the thing to do.

Bruce
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      05-22-2012, 06:41 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Interesting that in pretty much every major race car category that allows ABS, few (if any) teams choose to run without it.
In one Porsche series where 996 were allowed ABS but 997 not, the 996 would always make up ground under braking.
It's only my opinion, but, to me, the advantage of ABS is that you can trail brake into a corner without locking up an inside rear tire. I would guess that is the reason race teams would want it. When ABS kicks in on a front tire, your game is over.

Another point about ABS, that has always been a sore point with me is that it terrifies me with regard to spins. In the old days without ABS (yes, I'm that old), when you knew you weren't going to recover from a slide, you'd lock up all four wheels once you knew the car was heading in a direction that wouldn't hit anything. With ABS, if you try to lock up all four, the car has a very real chance of heading in whatever direction the car is pointed. Often this is a wall.
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      05-22-2012, 07:36 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
Even though I used to drive a DCT M3, the fun of rowing yourself makes the manual my choice for a sporting car.

And my final comment on 6MT:
As described in my post above, when trail braking for a turn and downshifting while heel-n-toein' a driver is performing 5 physical actions with four appendages while cognitively planning for the corner exit and possibly even checking the mirror for that faster DCT equipped car that's about to pass, while the DCT driver is eating a hamburger and getting a BJ.
LOL This is GOLD

In regards to original post that started this show, money does not buy ability, sell your M3. M3 is for people who want to drive the car (6MT or DCT - doesn't matter). You sound like you should have bought the 520D but saw the M3 and got excited
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      05-23-2012, 05:26 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
It's only my opinion, but, to me, the advantage of ABS is that you can trail brake into a corner without locking up an inside rear tire. I would guess that is the reason race teams would want it. When ABS kicks in on a front tire, your game is over.

Another point about ABS, that has always been a sore point with me is that it terrifies me with regard to spins. In the old days without ABS (yes, I'm that old), when you knew you weren't going to recover from a slide, you'd lock up all four wheels once you knew the car was heading in a direction that wouldn't hit anything. With ABS, if you try to lock up all four, the car has a very real chance of heading in whatever direction the car is pointed. Often this is a wall.
Most of the tracking I've done has been in non ABS cars mostly 911s...(and if there was ever a car that begged for ABS it was the 911). So I have to admit to a low level of personal experience...but I can see that it could cause problems in some situations. Though in F1 you can often see the unloaded front wheel smoke while braking and turning so ABS would be an advantage there to allow heavier braking without flatspotting the unloaded tyre.
I think the conflict here is the perception of where the current level of ABS is at. In the past ABS was quite crude and perhaps some of those impressions still linger. But the advances in recent times have been quite impressive. The integration of very sophisticated stability control systems requires highly accurate wheel speed reading to compare with the output from lateral, yaw, and steering angle sensors and a fast and accurate response from the ABS.
Can a modern system cycle quickly and accurately enough to keep within the optimum target slip rates? - everything I've read on the subject suggests to me that it can. Would ABS be a benefit on track? I guess thats less clear cut.
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