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      05-11-2012, 10:00 AM   #441
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As you can see, the Toyota Sports 800 is the reason why I prefer to use the moniker Toyobaru (and not Subieyota) despite the fact that the car is built by Subaru.

The concept dates back to 1962 and was an instant hit when it came into production in 1965!

That concept is as actual today as it was in the sixties... so an instant hit it will be, I'm positive!
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      05-11-2012, 11:01 AM   #442
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Cdrockies is still trolling here? lol.. what happened to clublexus young man? Anywho, there are some nice original japanese cars that I admire. The GTR comes to mind. This Brz and FRS is a nice car for the money imo.. I like it.
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      05-11-2012, 05:32 PM   #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Please, the guy had BMW X1 written in the 'Drives:' information and deleted it. Obviously, it's someone who wants to see this thread closed and I think he will succeed if you guys still keep helping him.

The 1965 Toyota Sports 800 was the first and up until now the ONLY 'modern era' Front-engine, Rear-wheel-drive sports car featuring a boxer engine (0.8 liter 2-cylinder, 580kg curb weight ). The Sports 800 was also one of the first production cars featuring a lift-out roof panel, or targa top, pre-dating the Porsche Targa. Weight was kept down by using aluminum on selected body panels and thin steel on the unibody construction. For the first few years of production even the seat frames were made of aluminium. That's the Toyobaru heritage:









However, the handling benchmark was the mid-engine Porsche Cayman despite the fact that the Toyobaru's center of gravity (17.7 inches high) is one inch lower than a Cayman's. They tried to copy the Germans after all!
OK. Tracus is added to my troll list. Keep the constructive discussion going and stop feeding the troll!
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      05-11-2012, 05:41 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER View Post
This Brz and FRS is a nice car for the money imo.. I like it.
See your countryman Tim Schrick with a big grin driving the Toyobaru... I'm quite sure that you perfectly understand him :


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      05-11-2012, 08:41 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER View Post
Cdrockies is still trolling here? lol.. what happened to clublexus young man? Anywho, there are some nice original japanese cars that I admire. The GTR comes to mind. This Brz and FRS is a nice car for the money imo.. I like it.
Still hanging around being the resident douche over there too?

j/k
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      05-13-2012, 11:18 AM   #446
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I think you can better judge the Toyobaru's merits through a small Advevo's quotes compilation about his views on cars. All we know is that he owns now not one but two 1Ms... the rest is history:


Quote:
I drove both standard i still pick an 135i over a m3 e92 anyday.

135i is much agiler to drives it gives much more a smile on my face.

M3 was in early days motorsport. Now M stands for marketing.

M3 has more status than an 135i. But he fu.. status i am a driver.
Quote:
Yes i go to a m3 e46 to a 135i msport but sold the 135i again and went for E90 M3.

Can t get used to turbo. Throttle response is insane on m3 and 8400 sets youre hair on fire. Incredable engine. No turbo can give you the sensation of 8400 rpm and throttle response.
Quote:
I would like to see a 3.0 6 cil with 320 hp in M hatchback. With more than 8000 rpm on tap. I rather see that than a turbo.

Throttle response is so much better from an atmo engine.
Quote:
that s turbo.

I drove M3 sedan yesterday. Thats throttle response.

Atmo engines are still the best at the throttle response.
Quote:
I want NA high rev engine. New 3.0 alu mag engine with about 320hp is more than enough for me if the the car is lightweight.
Quote:
I once test drive a 997 GT3. If you can not afford one never test drive one. You can throw every other car in the sea. This car is soo damn good. When i drove i one i could not afford one. I had an e46 m3. I instantly sold my m3 i could not enjoy a car at that price anymore. I drove the new M3 also the e90 and e92 are shitty cars compared to a 997 GT3. So as long i can t afford a porsche i won t spend big money on cars and be happy with the cheaper 1 series.

997 GT3 the best driver car atm. A friend of mine has a 599 ferrari i rather buy two 997 GT3 instead of one 599. That good is a 997 gt3 as a drivers car.

So all the stories of the e90 and e92 you can forget. It just a bmw with an M marketing badge which is a heavy bitch for to much money.
Quote:
I have driven the e92 m3 too. But i have much more fun in a 135i that s why i bought one.

135i is much more nimble than the larger M3.

///M stands for ///Marketing not for Motorsport anymore.

Only the M engine is Motorsport that s about it.
Quote:
Call it an M1 if it s really an M1 an AG turbo has nothing to do with proper ///M engines. So no worthy ///M badge on the boot then. If the engine is ///M build and runs 8400 rpm minimum YES PUT A BIG FAT ///M ON THE BOOT

An X5///M and X6///M are no real ///M cars it s AG car with some ///M badges. I hope it doesn t goes the same way for the M1.
Quote:
I have an M3 E90 i only have it because of the 8400 rpm engine. It s a piece of art. But for me the 3 series has grown to much. It s to big and heavy. I would like a smaller ///M1 love it. Only concern is the engine. If it s turbo and if does not have the throttle response like my M3 E90 and CSL i quess my E90 M3 and CSL stays a bit longer.
Quote:
throttle response like my M3 (thats off and on throttle)

Reliability like an e92 V8 atmo ///M engine. (That means i can drive all day on track without overheating and other problems)

if it lacks these 2 i don t even care for a test drive.
Quote:
using the 135i engine is the easy making money way. If i spend ///M money i want something special engine wise. Like 360hp out of 3.2 engine with a carbon airbox. No it s not as fast as 135i 400 hp turbo engine. But that 3.2 is a piece of art. A 135i or any other turbo will never be one. Same goes for the X5 M and X6 M

Then the other thing.

Try the balance a turbo on under and oversteer with the throttle. Try that you proberly end up in the hedges. Turbo s are nice on 4wd rally cars. They don t belong in RWD car with a LSD on. You need a more liniear throttle response.

I want to spend lots money on ///M cars but if can t play with the throttle to balance the car i won t spend one dollar/euro on it.

Pedal to metal on the straight brigades i am not a member of. There more than enough manufactures who build those high power high nm turbo torque cars. I rather see 9000 rpm and sound to die for. Engine like a piece of art.

E30 dtm airbox
M3 3.0
M3 3.2
M3 CSL airbox
M3 V8 with 8400 rpm. Mount an airbox you will get crazy.

I don t care if people overtake me with turbo engine in my high ///M engines. You get used to torque. You never get bored listen to high rev engines.
Quote:
i had a 135i sold it after driving ///M3 E90.

Turbo lag is killing me. As long as they have not find a solution to turbo lag en get a throttle response like an atmo engine i don t want turbo ever again.

If bmw does n t make atmo anymore i buy myself a GT3.
Quote:
Atmo all the way.

turbo are laggy
turbo break down more easily
turbo goes more often in limp mode.
turbo overheats faster.

with the 128 you can drive all day on track without manny engine problems try that with a 135i. Temp is rising like crazy with the turbo cars.
Quote:
i have had an 135i sold it after 3 months fed up with the turbo lag en limp mode on track.

I now have an M3 E90 fantastic machine. Throttle respons just awesome never saw that in a turbo engine.

Bring on M 4 cil turbo with 300hp no problem but

throttle response like atmo ///M
Can drive all day on track without limp mode and heating problems.
No turbo failures
No turbo lag.

If they can manage that in a one series ///M hatch or coupe with a weight of 1200kg. I am going for a test drive.
Quote:
We need a 3.0 atmo with 8000 rpm and 300hp min on tab an a car weigh about 1250kg in a 3 doors hatchback.

Those 1.3 turbo are nice for my grandma to get the grocery s.
Quote:
qoute from scott

The initial idea for the M2 began with the outgoing engines that had featured in the M3 and Z4M being rebuilt with am magnesium block to offset some weight, The uprated engine found in the M3 CSL was also tested, The problem was that no matter what BMW had done to lighten the front of the car it still proved to be insufficient and felt noseheavy The car was proving difficult to compare with the developing 135i eventually they axed the programme settling for the 135i to cope with demand.

That s a strange sentence if i read it again.

That means a magnesium 6 cil is to nose heavy and 135i with turbo and hoses and intercooler is lighter and better for use in a 1 series ///M. I know for sure a 6 cil alu/mag engine is lighter than a 6 cil biturbo that s for sure.


I have had and still have a 130i street and racecar and i have also owned a 135i i can tell you the 135i is far more nose heavy than the 130i with alu magnesium engine.

The choice ///M has for this car is either the alu magnesium high rev 6 cilinder or a 4 cil turbo. I can tell you a 6 cil turbo with all the extra hoses and intercoolers is far to nose heavy for good cornering. The 135i is worse in cornering than a 130i so why on earth should bmw ///M put in a heavier 6 cil turbo.
Quote:
You can drift turbo cars it s done for ages.

But what is so nice at atmo engine that s the linear power delivery. I can set the back out 5 inches with throttle if i want and if i want 10 inches it s no problem at all adjust a little throtte and you get it instantly. Now with turbo you can t adjust it that precisely if do it it s mostly to much or it s to late etc.

So you never can put the back end out exactly how you want it with turbo. That s why the highrev ///M engine are so fantastic on track that s why you see porsche cup cars are always highrev engines. Because highrev is simply the best for extreme driving on corners it s so well controlleable.

But if you want youre engine tuned up turbo is nice but then the lag is getting even worse.
Quote:
It s not funny it s serious.

I buy ///M because of it s Motorsport heritage. If i would buy a ///M car for hp and NM that would be stupid. There are far more manufacters that offer cheaper and a lot of hp an nm for less money.

///M was always something special for motorsport enthusiasts guys who bring there cars to the track. Now with turbo it s nothing special anymore.

This is a nice quote.

If you can only put youre foot on the gas when the car is straight is no driving fun for me. (This is the way how most the turbo cars needs to be driven.)
Quote:
yes i go on with the progress.

Is the letter ///M Motorsport or what. I have raced all my life. And turbo engines are pain in the ass on track.

Why do you think we have porsche carrera cup, GT3 cup and not Porsche GT2 cup. Go drive on track on the limit and you know it.

Most of the guys talking about turbo s and torque are highway burners. Higway burners you can buy at almost every corner of the street. Well balanced chassis with atmo engines wich can be perfectly controlled with throttle in corners (yes corners guys not straights) is a piece of art. And worth the ///M money which has to be paid for it.

If you want highway burners buy a modded 135i

It has totally no use if the M1 gets a 6 cil turbo if you looking for ///M motorsport in a car. That means corners yes corners.
Quote:
The idea of a turbo 6 cil is stupid for a ///M1

Why because we have an 135i already with chip 326hp. So if people want turbo s buy a 135i. What s the point of bringing a ///M1 turbo.

The M1 should be an atmo with 345hp. A drivers ///M car should always be an atmo.

Turbo ///M are good for the big cruise ships like M5 M3 and X5 X6M. A drivers car like the 1 series deserves only one engine and that is a high rev atmo engine with 345hp. Everything else is only made to make easy money. The 135i was enough then.
Quote:
Levi

I am comming from a E90 M3 and have a csl. But you have to admit bmw does not make drivers cars anymore even the upcomming M1 that wil weight about 1500kg. That s insane for such a small car. I was also so bored with my E90 M3. It s so heavy you feel it in cornering the front and rear tires when driven hard are gone in notime because of the weight.

It s all green agenda and luxery at ///M. For a daily drive an M1 is nice. But ///M gave you a special feeling in early days when buying. I know when i was a kid drooling over a E36 M3 GT. Last car at bmw i was drooling over was the M3 CSL. The new GTS at 1490kg and M1 at 1500kg with turbo is not were i am in search for. It s a big shame. Because i am a big bmw fan. The CSL is an awesome machine and give you the feel you drive something special.
Quote:
1500kg is a heavy bitch for such a small car.

Like pointed out before weight is the biggest enemy and fun killer. I have sold my E90 M3 because of it.
Quote:
Nelson piquet once said when he drove the bmw turbo F1.

If you wanted to stay on the track you could only give throttle on the straights.

Now that s fun.




A turbo car rwd with a limited slip diff is never as nice to control midcorner than NA high rev engine with inmediate throttle response. If you don t know the difference you better can buy a drag race car.
Quote:
guibo fantastic write up.

You can try every turbo you want. But midcorner off throttle and on throttle is laggy with every turbo even ferrari or porsche turbo doesn t matter. That spoils my fun in driving. I would not spend premium money on such car. Turbo s are nice in diesel and daily drives. Cars for fun needs to be NA great throttle response and give emotion.

I am a big ///M enthusiast but not turbo s if the M1 is turbo i am 100% not buying it. Car would give me zero driving emotion. I rather pay a lot more and buy myself a GT3. That s a car which give you throttle response that s a car which give emotion. Bmw could build one out of a 1 series. But the bmw ag board would proberly not aprove because it is not green enough.

I had it with bmw green agenda. It s about time they bring a new 6 cil high rpm///M engine with 8500 rpm NA.
Quote:
I think not.

A 1 M will never get the race heritage like the E30 M3. And ///M is looking away from real motorsport engines.

So what has a 6cil turbo to do with a 380hp 4cil M3 E30 at more than 9000 rpm.

So in my opinion a turbo M1 is as far from motorsport as a cow which is sitting at the table eating a nice hot meal.
Quote:
Segler talks about low weight and throttle response.

If this thing weight above 1400kg than it s all a bunch of marketing b.llsh.t. talk overthere.

The car looks is fantastic.
Quote:
They should use a 3.0 alu mag engine and pump out 320hp with 8500 rpm on tap. That s a thru motorsports engine. That s like a swiss watch.

What we get is a Casio with a price tag on it from a rolex.
Quote:
Trier

I have done that route also. Bought a gt3 mk2 after my e90 m3. Porsche atmo s are pure porn.

This 1 series M is nice for a daily drifter and some sideways shopping for driving on track all day you can better take the GT3.
Quote:
Way i need a daily drifter next to the GT3.

GT3 can t take all speedbumps

I won t sell a GT3 for it though. High rev engines are the best.
Quote:
Perfect post. So thru.

I have had an M3 sold it because of all those aspects. Waiting for the 1M. Pity its a turbo though but the car size is perfect.
Quote:
I have also a 997 MK2 GT3. I want de 1M next to it as my daily drive/and driftfun. I have had a E90 M3. It is a to big car to toss around in the twisty s. I like the size of the 1M a lot more. As a family car i rather buy me a X3 or X5.


So poor mans M3 doesn t count for me. It s the best M car in the line up right now. The AG Turbo engine is a bit of let down. But everything else is fine.

Turbo is ok if the price is low too. Every car maker can make turbo s so that s nothing special to begin with. If the asking price is low then turbo is ok. For a racing engine like the CSL bmw bmw can ask a higher price. I would never pay premium for a turbo engine. Every jap manufacturer has one.

My conclusion is: if you value what a driver's car really is and want to stay true to yourself you have no choice but to buy a Toyobaru for the 'price of a casio'!

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-13-2012 at 01:06 PM.
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      05-15-2012, 04:47 PM   #447
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GM’s European arms, Opel and Vauxhall, are preparing to introduce three new engine families in the course of the following year:

Quote:
The first new engine to be introduced is a turbocharged 1598 cc, four-cylinder gasoline unit with direct injection and Start/Stop. The new SIDI (spark ignition direct injection) ECOTEC engine will be available in various power outputs and across several car lines. Production at the Szentgotthardt plant in Hungary will begin in late 2012.

Smooth acceleration, strong pulling power, low noise levels and low fuel consumption were the main focus of the engine development. The emphasis was on torque with the engineers achieving up to 187.5 Nm (138 lb-ft) per liter of displacement—a benchmark for gasoline engines produced in high volume, according to GM. Maximum torque is up to 300 Nm (221 lb-ft) and is already available at 1,700 rpm. Peak power of up to 200 hp (149 kW) is reached at 4,700 rpm. Compared to the predecessor 1.6-liter turbocharged gasoline engine, fuel consumption and CO2 have been cut by 13%.

"Our new 1.6 liter direct-injection engine is a real giant in terms of torque. Power builds up very smoothly and quietly"

—director of gasoline engines, Thomas Johnen



Jaguar will also offer a 240-horsepower 2.0-liter turbo four which can be one of the powerplants in the forthcoming Jaguar F-TYPE roadster:

Quote:
The introduction of the Turbocharged I4 to the Jaguar range brings greatly improved efficiency* with competitive power outputs. This new engine will be used in a longitudinal configuration and mated to the new ZF eight-speed automatic transmission that will be used on the V6. Again, this transmission's large spread of ratios maximizes both performance and efficiency. Producing 240hp at 5,500 rpm, this engine offers a highly flexible powerband.

With a weight of only 304 lbs (138kg), courtesy of compact dimensions and all-aluminum construction, it is the lightest engine ever fitted into a production Jaguar. This low mass improves dynamic agility while bringing further emissions and economy benefits.

The engine uses of a low-inertia turbocharger that enables it to produce its high-specific power and torque outputs. The turbocharger is fed via a lightweight thin-walled exhaust manifold which offers a shorter engine warm-up period and faster catalyst light-off. Chain-driven cams operate with variable timing on both the intake and exhaust valves to maximize the broad spread of torque.

The engine features specialized coatings on the piston rings and tappets in order to reduce unwanted internal friction. Efficiency and power gains are also realized using direct injection technology. Fuel is injected in precisely measured doses several times during each combustion cycle to ensure the most efficient possible burn with the maximum benefit in terms of power generation while maintaining the lowest possible fuel consumption and emissions.

Significant steps have been taken to ensure expected levels of smoothness and sophistication refinement including twin balancer shafts, active engine mounts, an acoustic engine cover, and the use of additional sound insulation.


TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS

240hp Turbocharged 2.0-liter I4
Engine type: four-cylinder, in-line, turbocharged
Capacity (cc): 1999
Bore/stroke (mm): 87.5/83.1
Peak power (HP@rpm): 240@5500


The Toyobaru will not be an exception...
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      05-15-2012, 08:16 PM   #448
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i think it's gonna be a great track car. I am hoping I can get a brz just for that and not having to worry about wrecking my M3 at the track. :-)
also, having less power is probably going to be good for me until i get to learn to be a better driver.
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      05-16-2012, 08:55 AM   #449
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Turbo Version of Subaru's BRZ's FA-Series Engine Debuts in Japanese Legacy



We recently confirmed that we won’t be seeing a turbocharged Subaru BRZ anytime soon; however, we now have a fairly good idea of what kind of power such a model will eventually bring. Subaru has dropped the first turbocharged variant of its 2.0-liter, FA-series flat-four engine—the naturally aspirated version of which powers the BRZ and its Toyota/Scion brethren—into the refreshed Japanese-market Legacy sedan and wagon.

The turbo FA20′s output numbers are impressive: 300 PS and 400 Nm of torque. In the JDM Legacy, the engine is bolted to Subaru’s CVT, likely for fuel-economy reasons.






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      05-16-2012, 09:12 AM   #450
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GRMM SPORTS FR Concept

Lenght / Width / Height (mm) : 4.350 / 1.855 / 1.250
Wheelbase (mm) : 2.570
Vehicle weight (kg) : 1.280
Tire size (front & rear): 245/40R18 & 265/35R18

Engine : Twin charged (turbocharger + supercharger) 2.0l H4 based on 4U-GSE
Power : 320 PS
Torque : 421 Nm
Transmission : 6 speed manual





















Gazoo Racing
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      05-16-2012, 09:58 AM   #451
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omg, grmm kit is looking really nice.

i like it.
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      05-16-2012, 04:00 PM   #452
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      05-16-2012, 09:46 PM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Turbo Version of Subaru's BRZ's FA-Series Engine Debuts in Japanese Legacy

We recently confirmed that we won’t be seeing a turbocharged Subaru BRZ anytime soon; however, we now have a fairly good idea of what kind of power such a model will eventually bring. Subaru has dropped the first turbocharged variant of its 2.0-liter, FA-series flat-four engine—the naturally aspirated version of which powers the BRZ and its Toyota/Scion brethren—into the refreshed Japanese-market Legacy sedan and wagon.

The turbo FA20′s output numbers are impressive: 300 PS and 400 Nm of torque. In the JDM Legacy, the engine is bolted to Subaru’s CVT, likely for fuel-economy reasons.

Levi,

First of all thank you for the info and the very nice pics - I usually don't like big wings but in this case I think it matches the car very nicely indeed and it certainly is needed to cope with those impressive performance figures:

Weight: 1.280 kg
Power : 320 PS
Torque : 421 Nm


I think they have heard Advevo.

What is especially significant though is the addition of a supercharger to a turbo in order to have no throttle response lag. (As you can see there's no space issues ). I can remember the VW's 'twincharger' 1.4-liter direct-injection, high compression ratio (10.0:1), four-cylinder engine that produced 170 horsepower and 177 pound-feet of torque (1750 to 4500 rpm):

Quote:
Below 2400 rpm, all the boost comes from the supercharger; at 2400 rpm, both the supercharger and the turbocharger provide boost; and beyond 3500, the turbo works alone as the supercharger is disengaged by an electromagnetic clutch. The transition, controlled by the engine management computer, is seamless and undetectable.

The supercharger provides instantaneous power. Once the turbo is providing boost, the supercharger's clutch is disengaged and it is closed off from the induction system, allowing the turbo to take over completely.




In the case of the Toyobaru, I think that in order to preserve the low weight, without striping the car and adding a roll cage, the chassis will be good enough for 185 - 221 lb-ft (250-300 Nm) of torque maximum with slightly wider tires, say: 225/45 R 17.

Also, in order to keep the emissions and the weight as low as possible, without bias the weight toward the front, I think the Toyobaru will receive the lighter and small Boxer 1.6L Direct Injection Turbo (DIT) engine with a 220-240hp version instead of the bigger turbocharged FA20 engine (impressive numbers indeed):

Compression Ratio: 10.6:1
Power: 300 PS (221 kW; 296 hp) at 5,600 RPM
Torque: 40.8 kgm (400 Nm; 295 lbft) at 2,000-4,800 RPM
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      05-21-2012, 04:08 AM   #454
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That's all the Toyobaru would need :


Quote:
MINI has introduced a new engine for their JCW lineup



1.6-liter four-cylinder engine has the same output and torque as its predecessor [boasting a twin-scroll turbocharger and petrol direct injection] (...) In the JCW Countryman, it produces 218 PS (160 kW / 215 hp) at 6,100 rpm and 280 Newton metres (207 lb-ft) of torque between 2,000 and 5,600 rpm [The Overboost function briefly pushes this figure up to 300 Nm (221 lb-ft)]. In the rest of the lineup, the engine develops a maximum output of 211 PS (155 kW / 208 hp) at 6,000 rpm and 260 Nm (192 lb-ft) of torque between 1,850 and 5,600 rpm[The Overboost function briefly pushes this figure up to 207 lb-ft between 2,000 – 5,100 rpm].


Model.................. 0-100 km/h.................. Top Speed.......................................... Average Fuel Consumption............ CO2 emissions

JCW Cooper...... 6.5 (6.7) seconds...... 238 km/h / 148 mph (236 km/h / 147 mph)............ 6.6 / (7.1) L/100km................ 153 (165) g/km

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      05-21-2012, 09:06 AM   #455
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Saw an FRS on the freeway today. I have to say, it looks very good (only time I'll probably say anything good about a Scion). Anyway, it didn't ring any BMW bells visually. It reminded me more of a mature RX-8.
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      05-23-2012, 08:38 AM   #456
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      05-25-2012, 04:34 AM   #457
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      05-25-2012, 05:10 AM   #458
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The BRZ it's all good. But just not possible to trade a bimmer for this thing... If only someone is in the market for a new car anyways, or if someone can afford this thing as a track toy, while keeping the bummer as a DD...
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      05-25-2012, 06:49 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
The BRZ it's all good. But just not possible to trade a bimmer for this thing...
No sweat! The Toyobaru is not aimed to Bimmers... very different animals, the Toyobaru is actually very lightweight and with exceptional turn-in ability you see?!

The Toyobaru's benchmark is the Cayman... I think that people will start to ask themselves why to pay such money for a 'Rolex concept' when the WAY cheaper 'Casio' delivers countless hours of sheer joyful fun.

Unless, fun is overrated... is it?!
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      05-25-2012, 01:32 PM   #460
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I'm sure no one will cross shop the BR-Z with the Cayman. It's more like, the BR-Z is a poor-man's Cayman.
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      05-25-2012, 07:48 PM   #461
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Quote:
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The BRZ it's all good. But just not possible to trade a bimmer for this thing... If only someone is in the market for a new car anyways, or if someone can afford this thing as a track toy, while keeping the bummer as a DD...
that is exactly how i see it. I would love to add this as my track car.

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I'm sure no one will cross shop the BR-Z with the Cayman. It's more like, the BR-Z is a poor-man's Cayman.
they are different demographics who buy the cayman vs. brz. they used cayman as their benchmark. But duplicating the speed doesn't give it all the character of a porsche. enuff said.
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      05-26-2012, 11:50 AM   #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
I'm sure no one will cross shop the BR-Z with the Cayman. It's more like, the BR-Z is a poor-man's Cayman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raja Ventureshield View Post
they are different demographics who buy the cayman vs. brz. they used cayman as their benchmark. But duplicating the speed doesn't give it all the character of a porsche. enuff said.





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