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      05-10-2012, 11:10 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3DCTBT View Post
15k is about the limit I saw before the plugs start retarded timing/inconsistent timing. We dyno tested every 1500 miles on the same machine.

231E will not solve the issues, it 35% bandaids it. So much for marketing hype.
Re: Marketing hype, and Tom - he specifically urged against blindly updating assuming it would add tons of power.

But if everyone wants to do it, then of course he has to get in on the action.

: )

Appreciate all your real world data here very much!
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      05-10-2012, 11:48 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
Re: Marketing hype, and Tom - he specifically urged against blindly updating assuming it would add tons of power.

But if everyone wants to do it, then of course he has to get in on the action.

: )

Appreciate all your real world data here very much!
I was referring to the swoop in by Mr. Mike Benvo
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      05-10-2012, 11:53 AM   #201
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I was referring to the swoop in by Mr. Mike Benvo
Excuse me? Swoop in? I have no idea what you are talking about..
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      05-10-2012, 11:56 AM   #202
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Why wouldn't you just compare sae numbers of both runs so they are corrected for temperature etc instead of guessing?
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      05-10-2012, 12:04 PM   #203
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I loaded the 231E software from Evolve yesterday. Seemed a little doggy at first but seems fine now. I gotta go dog it a little....safely of course.
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      05-10-2012, 01:12 PM   #204
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I was referring to the swoop in by Mr. Mike Benvo
Roger. You guys can duke it out.

I think Mike provides a valuable service.
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      05-10-2012, 01:16 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
I think Mike provides a valuable service.
I couldn't agree more!! This guy knows his shit!

He's done a ton of work for me. Only uses the dealer tools, not some third party autological thing. A true professional.
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      05-10-2012, 01:38 PM   #206
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I couldn't agree more!! This guy knows his shit!

He's done a ton of work for me. Only uses the dealer tools, not some third party autological thing. A true professional.
Agreed...100%.
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      05-10-2012, 01:46 PM   #207
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Agreed...100%.
+1
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      05-10-2012, 02:14 PM   #208
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Read this entire thread. I have 03/08 software. My dealer said they WILL do the update for a fairly reasonable cost. Just ordered new plugs, I'm unsure of when these were last change, the car was recently purchased. Will perform a before and after dyno for results.
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      05-10-2012, 02:21 PM   #209
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My dealer did it for free, under warranty - as long as I had a reason/complaint for it to be done.

I'm now on 2.46.X
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      05-10-2012, 03:19 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
I couldn't agree more!! This guy knows his shit!

He's done a ton of work for me. Only uses the dealer tools, not some third party autological thing. A true professional.
Autologic is dealer equivalent, even better in some instances. Most serious independent repair facility purchase the these tools as they are essential to troubleshooting and/or repair.

Please let's not get into a pissing match on tools, unless you are fully aware of what's involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
Re: Marketing hype, and Tom - he specifically urged against blindly updating assuming it would add tons of power.
Agreed. I can't stress this enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakPoint View Post
Read this entire thread. I have 03/08 software. My dealer said they WILL do the update for a fairly reasonable cost. Just ordered new plugs, I'm unsure of when these were last change, the car was recently purchased. Will perform a before and after dyno for results.
Thanks for taking the time to follow through correctly. Looking forward to your results.
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      05-10-2012, 03:22 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Autologic is dealer equivalent, even better in some instances. Most serious independent repair facility purchase the these tools as they are essential to troubleshooting and/or repair.

Please let's not get into a pissing match on tools, unless you are fully aware of what's involved.



Agreed. I can't stress this enough,.
How so? Please enlighten me/us.

If it was equivalent or better, the dealer would be using it.
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      05-10-2012, 03:45 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
I couldn't agree more!! This guy knows his shit!

He's done a ton of work for me. Only uses the dealer tools, not some third party autological thing. A true professional.
Autologic is dealer equivalent, even better in some instances. Most serious independent repair facility purchase the these tools as they are essential to troubleshooting and/or repair.

Please let's not get into a pissing match on tools, unless you are fully aware of what's involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
Re: Marketing hype, and Tom - he specifically urged against blindly updating assuming it would add tons of power.
Agreed. I can't stress this enough,.
I understand the autologic is a powerful tool and used by independent shops. However, I'd much rather prefer that my car be updated with the same exact factory tools that the dealer uses. Mike has demonstrated mastery of factory tools in front of me - like serious stuff - passing actual commands straight to different control units. I've seen him work some serious magic.

I have never met anyone as knowledgable on this subject. I was there once when a BMW dealership called him for help on a car they couldn't fix.

I'm sure the autologic does a few things with more ease than the dealer tools, but there is definitely nothing it does that Mike can't do. I couldn't say the same thing the other way around.

In my opinion both you guys are talented in similar and different ways. I can almost feel the tension in the thread and think two talented individuals as yourselves should work together for the betterment of the community.
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      05-10-2012, 03:54 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
I couldn't agree more!! This guy knows his shit!

He's done a ton of work for me. Only uses the dealer tools, not some third party autological thing. A true professional.
Autologic is dealer equivalent, even better in some instances. Most serious independent repair facility purchase the these tools as they are essential to troubleshooting and/or repair.

Please let's not get into a pissing match on tools, unless you are fully aware of what's involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
Re: Marketing hype, and Tom - he specifically urged against blindly updating assuming it would add tons of power.
Agreed. I can't stress this enough,.
I understand the autologic is a powerful tool and used by independent shops. However, I'd much rather prefer that my car be updated with the same exact factory tools that the dealer uses. Mike has demonstrated mastery of factory tools in front of me - like serious stuff - passing actual commands straight to different control units. I've seen him work some serious magic.

I have never met anyone as knowledgable on this subject. I was there once when a BMW dealership called him for help on a car they couldn't fix.

I'm sure the autologic does a few things with more ease than the dealer tools, but there is definitely nothing it does that Mike can't do. I couldn't say the same thing the other way around.

In my opinion both you guys are talented in similar and different ways. I can almost feel the tension in the thread and think two talented individuals as yourselves should work together for the betterment of the community.
Agreed.

I actually tried reaching out to Tom a few times to have a friendly conversation on this topic, but never heard back. Hopefully he'll call.
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      05-10-2012, 03:56 PM   #214
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How so? Please enlighten me/us.

If it was equivalent or better, the dealer would be using it.
Please take the bring yourself up to date on Autologic's website:

http://autologic.us/en/pages/homepro...mw-diagnostics

Autologic is the only licensed 3rd party provider of BMW diagnostic tools I'm aware of. Most serious brick and mortar repair facilities will have one with accompanying hardware (power supply for voltage stabilization, OPS head for MOST programming, etc) in order to program. There is a yearly subscription fee in order to get updates, which are needed to keep current as updates/fixes are provided from BMW.

Autologic is also capable of updating/coding individual modules, which dealerships cannot do.

The game changes on new BMWs F-chassis BMWs are ethernet based. There's Byteflight. The list goes on. Autologic works closely with BMW and has a competently understanding of these tools and software, which is also used on its GUI. As stated before, it's dealer equivalent, with the addition of failsafes to minimize programming failures or use corrective measures to keep failures from appearing at all.

Another other option is to purchase authentic diagnostic hardware yourself and pay the $2500/year subscription fee through BMW's TIS program:

http://www.bmwtis.com/

Otherwise, most coding is performed via leaked/pirated versions of BMW software and Chinese ICOM/DCAN systems. A number of these pieces can be found on eBay, with subpar reliability rates.

Either will do the job, but all have one thing in common - they are merely tools.

The above-mentioned methods are completely worthless unless the individual using them knows how to use it, and what corrective measures to take when he (or others) makes a mistake in order to correct it. If you're in a jam, you need to know what it takes to correct it - and mistakes happen from time to time in any field.

I'm sure you're happy with Mike's services and that's perfectly fine. But please don't discredit a system, field or procedure you have completely no understanding about.
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      05-10-2012, 04:00 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
How so? Please enlighten me/us.

If it was equivalent or better, the dealer would be using it.
The Autologic is more capable than the dealer equipment is in many cases. I am not saying it is BETTER, but it is more capable, easier to use and cheaper to obtain. I can tell you this, I use it all the time.

Perpetuating information on this forum that the Autologic is not a dealer tool and therefor it should not be used isn't helpful to anyone here. It is a great tool, and behind dealer equipment (if you can afford and obtain the real thing and not the replica crap that is readily available for 1200 all over the internet), it is the only other tool we BMW guys trust.

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      05-10-2012, 05:10 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Please take the bring yourself up to date on Autologic's website:

http://autologic.us/en/pages/homepro...mw-diagnostics

Autologic is the only licensed 3rd party provider of BMW diagnostic tools I'm aware of. Most serious brick and mortar repair facilities will have one with accompanying hardware (power supply for voltage stabilization, OPS head for MOST programming, etc) in order to program. There is a yearly subscription fee in order to get updates, which are needed to keep current as updates/fixes are provided from BMW.

Autologic is also capable of updating/coding individual modules, which dealerships cannot do.

The game changes on new BMWs F-chassis BMWs are ethernet based. There's Byteflight. The list goes on. Autologic works closely with BMW and has a competently understanding of these tools and software, which is also used on its GUI. As stated before, it's dealer equivalent, with the addition of failsafes to minimize programming failures or use corrective measures to keep failures from appearing at all.

Another other option is to purchase authentic diagnostic hardware yourself and pay the $2500/year subscription fee through BMW's TIS program:

http://www.bmwtis.com/

Otherwise, most coding is performed via leaked/pirated versions of BMW software and Chinese ICOM/DCAN systems. A number of these pieces can be found on eBay, with subpar reliability rates.

Either will do the job, but all have one thing in common - they are merely tools.

The above-mentioned methods are completely worthless unless the individual using them knows how to use it, and what corrective measures to take when he (or others) makes a mistake in order to correct it. If you're in a jam, you need to know what it takes to correct it - and mistakes happen from time to time in any field.

I'm sure you're happy with Mike's services and that's perfectly fine. But please don't discredit a system, field or procedure you have completely no understanding about.
I'm semi-surprised you have posted this, considering you said you didn't want to get into a tool X vs tool Y thread.

There is no doubt that the autologic is a fantastic tool. I've used it a few times my self at independent shops, and was happy with the way it operates. There are a couple of quirks, and when there is an issue, unfortunately you have to wait until autologic gets back to you to correct the issue. Two examples come to mind - I've seen two cars programmed with the autologic for the factory alarm system, and both cars had only about half the volume for the audible beep. After reading out the file from those cars, it was apparent that the coding data that the autologic used was not consistent with factory settings, and this is why the beep was not nearly as audible. You can not perform serious changes with the autologic. You can not do anything 'custom'.

As you said, Autologic will allow you to program specific modules without having to update the whole car. However, the reason why the dealer system does not allow this is because it's not the correct way of doing things. If the autologic writes the UIF to the car it's possible that the dealer systems will complain about a mismatch in integration levels and that it may show those modules as failed. Regardless, with my BMW expert tools I can go above and beyond what the factory dealer tools I have will do. It's always 'advised' to update the whole car.

Now you have mentioned that the game changes with the F series. Not sure what you mean by that, considering the ICOM is 100% ethernet based. All communication with the car is only VIA ethernet, and the ICOM will switch between ethernet, k-line, d-can, and MOST bus as necessary. The ICOM covers every BMW from 1990 to cars rolling off of the dealers assembly line this moment. Not sure why you brought Byteflight up, should we discuss Flexray as well?

The online BMW ISTA/P and ISTA/D system works very well. I know many people that use it. I do not use the online BMW system, but actually have the complete installations that the dealers themselves use, aside from the expert tools.

You also referenced Chinese clones of DCAN Cables and ICOM's. You are correct that these exist. The factory DCAN cable is made by Omnitec, and I have one of those. My ICOM is not a clone, it's a 100% legit original. I have never used an ICOM clone myself, but know quite a few people that do. If you opened up the ICOM clone, you would see that it is 100% identical to the original ICOM. It's amazing what they are capable of in China. The real beauty of what I'm able to do comes with using the factory expert tools through the ICOM. Sorry, the autologic will not be able to compete there. Autologic will allow a 'trial' substitution of a module, but will not permanently mate anything but a new module to the car. That's a shortcoming right there. Personally, I would rather have an ICOM clone with the factory tools over an Autologic, but for an independent shop the Autologic is easier to use and pre-programmed for you.

There is no doubt that the autologic is a great dealer 'replacement' tool - in fact, it's the best around. But to argue that it's 'better' than the factory tools themselves is taking it a step too far.

Again I tried to make amends with you Tom, but instead you told me there is nothing to talk about and that I am 'harassing' you. I will never try to contact you again per your request. If you are ever up for a friendly, professional conversation on the topic, my door is open. I'm not sure where all of this hostility has come from as we have always gotten along. I think it's a benefit to everyone for vendors to work together, healthy competition is a positive thing.

The factory dealer ICOM A, ICOM B (for most bus), and C for legacy round pin vehicles is shown below. I have also included a picture of the factory omnitec D-Can programming cable for reference.

Kind Regards,
Mike
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      05-10-2012, 05:56 PM   #217
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[edited for content]

Kind Regards,
Mike
The reply was directed towards THE TECH's comment towards the "third party autological thing". Out of respect for the OP and his thread, I am not about to engage in any online pissing matches.

Please keep the thread 231-specific, M3PO should be posting his dyno sheets soon.
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      05-10-2012, 06:04 PM   #218
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When I contacted my SA, he was unaware of the update. He called me back and referenced this thread, spoke to a mech, and then agreed to perform the update.

So, be aware, service advisors are reading this thread.
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      05-10-2012, 07:19 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
The reply was directed towards THE TECH's comment towards the "third party autological thing". Out of respect for the OP and his thread, I am not about to engage in any online pissing matches.

Please keep the thread 231-specific, M3PO should be posting his dyno sheets soon.
If this was the case, I am not sure why the subject of china ICOM clones and unreliability was brought up. I would think that you would only address the Autologic and the capabilities it has. You mentioned to THE TECH not to discuss tools that he doesn't know anything about, yet you have made comments on tools that you are not familiar with.

Looking forward to more 231E discussion, and on that note:

My car is currently on 220E at the moment, and I am going to flash it later today or tomorrow (time permitting) with 231E. I will report back if I feel anything different. I suspect that recent versions of the software will not show overly significant gains - that only older versions such as 80E and 100E will have such gains.
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      05-10-2012, 07:20 PM   #220
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Here is the dyno sheet:



RUNFILE002: 100E Baseline
RUNFILE005: 100E Evolve tuned
RUNFILE011: 231E Baseline
RUNFILE016: 231E Baseline, verified before 231 Evolve tune
RUNFILE023: 231E Evolve tuned
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