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      05-03-2012, 06:10 AM   #45
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It's been a while, but somewhere back in time around the launch of the E9x M3, a BMW official stated that M Division expected 90+% of the E9x M3s produced to be equipped with DCT. For comparison purposes, the SMG to MT ratio of the previous generation was closer to 1:1. If the prediction was accurate, MTs will be relatively rare, even in America where MT enthusiasts are most numerous. FWIW, the only MT E9x M3 I've ever seen on a showroom floor was the first 2008 M3 delivered to dealers with everything thereafter having DCT.
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      05-03-2012, 07:20 AM   #46
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It seems the market today is more inclined to drive something other than a manual as the trend by manufacturers has been to offer automatic-type transmissions in performance cars. These companies also want to explore technology with these fast-shifting transmissions, too. Couple this with the lazy driver who dreds manually shifting in gridlock and who's preoccupied with gadgets including cell phones. Other than Porsche, I'd say the manual transmission is slowly going away.
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      05-03-2012, 07:43 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 48Laws View Post
It seems the market today is more inclined to drive something other than a manual as the trend by manufacturers has been to offer automatic-type transmissions in performance cars. These companies also want to explore technology with these fast-shifting transmissions, too. Couple this with the lazy driver who dreds manually shifting in gridlock and who's preoccupied with gadgets including cell phones. Other than Porsche, I'd say the manual transmission is slowly going away.
What about PDK ??
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      05-03-2012, 08:20 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
What about PDK ??
Porsche just offered the first 7-speed manual, too. That's a big step forward for manuals when the market is exploring non-manual transmissions.
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      05-03-2012, 11:54 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benmoooon View Post
DR.WOnder, you know that E46 M3 6MT's are worth more than E46 M3 SMG's even though SMG's were extra.
Most people that buy used M3's are enthusiasts and I think they prefer manuals?

I believe the same thing will happen for E92 M3's.
Yeah, I believe that's because the SMG wasn't a very good transmission, and it hasn't been reliable, and when something does go bad, it's expensive to fix. That's a pretty potent combo in the used market. I know I test drove a Z4 SMG, and it was literally the worst transmission I've ever drove. Granted, if I owned one, I'd probably learn how to drive it better, but still, most people dont' want to readjust their driving style for a transmission. The DCT is worlds different as a transmission, plus I think it suits the car a bit better. If you can downshift 3 gears in a few milliseconds to get more power when you need it, it doesn't matter as much that the engine isn't that torquey. Furthermore, so far it's been a pretty reliable transmission, and most of the issues have been seen fairly early in the car's life. So, we'll see.
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      05-03-2012, 11:57 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
Makes no difference. I've been through two of them and they're both the same. Like someone else said, this car forces you to pay attention while driving the 6MT and the driver just naturally adjusts to it. 1st to 2nd is notchy and the clutch in this car has little to no feedback for the driver. After 4 years of driving my car I still can't consistantly get a smooth take off out of 1st. Hopefully the next M3/4 manual will address this.
^this

I drove an older M3 yesterday for the first time and compared to my 08 M3, that transmission struggles. Don't get me wrong its a great car, but I was getting sea sick from all of the shift lag
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      05-03-2012, 09:41 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eau Rouge View Post
It's been a while, but somewhere back in time around the launch of the E9x M3, a BMW official stated that M Division expected 90+% of the E9x M3s produced to be equipped with DCT.
wow, never thought there are that many posers among M3 owners?

When I was shopping for my car, it seemed the only things that mattered were mileage, options packages, and warranty (original, cpo, etc). How many pedals on the footwell didn't have an effect on price. Contrary to what some are saying, there really wasn't a shortage of 6MT. In fact, sedans were mostly mt. Convertibles were somewhat biased to dct, and coupes were about 50/50 split.

As for long term, I'm sure the dct would lose value more than the mt. It's a very complicated and expensive piece of technology, with questionable long term reliability. Not to mention people are still haunted by the horror stories about the problematic e46 smg. Many buyers would be afraid of owning a dct once warranty is expired for fear of expensive repairs.
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      05-03-2012, 09:46 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian stig View Post
wow, never thought there are that many posers among M3 owners?

When I was shopping for my car, it seemed the only things that mattered were mileage, options packages, and warranty (original, cpo, etc). How many pedals on the footwell didn't have an effect on price. Contrary to what some are saying, there really wasn't a shortage of 6MT. In fact, sedans were mostly mt. Convertibles were somewhat biased to dct, and coupes were about 50/50 split.

As for long term, I'm sure the dct would lose value more than the mt. It's a very complicated and expensive piece of technology, with questionable long term reliability. Not to mention people are still haunted by the horror stories about the problematic e46 smg. Many buyers would be afraid of owning a dct once warranty is expired for fear of expensive repairs.
Good point.

However, 6MT on E9x M3's are nothing to boast about (i.e. they're mediocre).
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      05-04-2012, 12:29 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
Makes no difference. I've been through two of them and they're both the same. Like someone else said, this car forces you to pay attention while driving the 6MT and the driver just naturally adjusts to it. 1st to 2nd is notchy and the clutch in this car has little to no feedback for the driver. After 4 years of driving my car I still can't consistantly get a smooth take off out of 1st. Hopefully the next M3/4 manual will address this.
Do you mean starting from a dead stop in 1st?, or going from 1st to 2nd, which I agree is still notchy even with SSK. Performance or smaller shift knob does help. Guess I've just learned to live with it.
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      05-04-2012, 12:37 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
Makes no difference. I've been through two of them and they're both the same. Like someone else said, this car forces you to pay attention while driving the 6MT and the driver just naturally adjusts to it. 1st to 2nd is notchy and the clutch in this car has little to no feedback for the driver. After 4 years of driving my car I still can't consistantly get a smooth take off out of 1st. Hopefully the next M3/4 manual will address this.
You right that some 6MT owners wish for BMW to change the M car manual box but I suspect they intentionally leave it as it is. I have this feeling that as much as the 1-2 shift sucks I will miss this manual gearbox if I never get to drive it again. I drove my e92 M3 with 6 MT last night for about 10 miles just for the fun of it. When I came home I jumped into my 135i with the smooth 6MT and realized how ordinary it is compared to the 6MT in the M.
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      05-04-2012, 04:57 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
Yeah, I believe that's because the SMG wasn't a very good transmission, and it hasn't been reliable, and when something does go bad, it's expensive to fix. That's a pretty potent combo in the used market. I know I test drove a Z4 SMG, and it was literally the worst transmission I've ever drove. Granted, if I owned one, I'd probably learn how to drive it better, but still, most people dont' want to readjust their driving style for a transmission. The DCT is worlds different as a transmission, plus I think it suits the car a bit better. If you can downshift 3 gears in a few milliseconds to get more power when you need it, it doesn't matter as much that the engine isn't that torquey. Furthermore, so far it's been a pretty reliable transmission, and most of the issues have been seen fairly early in the car's life. So, we'll see.
The SMG in non-M models was completely different from SMGII in the e46 M3 from what I remember.
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      08-17-2014, 08:01 PM   #56
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Anyone have thoughts on this after a few years have passed? Do we see DCT still retaining more value than the 6MT?
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      08-17-2014, 08:15 PM   #57
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If trading-in the car, DCT will be worth more. It's a VIN based and DCT is an additional 2,500$ option.
As these cars continue to age and with the flooded aftermarket support, I see manuals becoming more desirable. Mileage and age become more of a factor... The manual trans, clutch and flywheel is cheaper to maintain or replace if "kaputt".
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      08-17-2014, 08:26 PM   #58
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My logic would be based on demand. If a buyer wants a 6MT the dealer realizes this that "only" a manual will do and will set/negotiate price based on that desire vs a buyer who doesn't demand a manual.
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      08-17-2014, 08:38 PM   #59
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manuals are a thing of the past, this is 2014 not the 80's
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      08-17-2014, 09:06 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M3_DCT View Post
If trading-in the car, DCT will be worth more. It's a VIN based and DCT is an additional 2,500$ option.
As these cars continue to age and with the flooded aftermarket support, I see manuals becoming more desirable. Mileage and age become more of a factor... The manual trans, clutch and flywheel is cheaper to maintain or replace if "kaputt".
Agree but keep in mind that the cost of an option when the car was new has no bearing on what the car brings down the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinm3 View Post
manuals are a thing of the past, this is 2014 not the 80's
That may be, but that is even more reason why they will be worth more, especially since most car makers are now catering to simple drivers with these automatics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by templarklimek View Post
My logic would be based on demand. If a buyer wants a 6MT the dealer realizes this that "only" a manual will do and will set/negotiate price based on that desire vs a buyer who doesn't demand a manual.
Yes and no, supply is more likley to dictate. Less MTs means they will be worth more down the line
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      08-17-2014, 09:10 PM   #61
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I think the market will rise this year, I think it will drop this year....I think the MT will be more valuable , I think the DCT will be more valuable...

No one knows....but one thing is certain this will turn into another MT VS DCT thread.....

So....

All the supercars are using DCT, everyone wants the latest technology, DCT is faster....(no one wants slower with less technology) bet on DCT being more valuable.
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      08-17-2014, 09:13 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by M3-S65 View Post
All the supercars are using DCT, everyone wants the latest technology, DCT is faster....bet on DCT being more valuable.
So basically you are refuting the first law of economics. The more items that are available the more they will be worth.

Also no cares about super cars on this thread. They are designed for people who want to spend more time tinkering with their e-gadgets than actually driving

And you should know that most super cars are using single clutch automatics, with the exception of Porsche's PDK
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      08-17-2014, 09:18 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3ray View Post
So basically you are refuting the first law of economics. The more items that are available the more it will be worth.
Just because there were more E9X M3 DCTs produced for the US/Canada than manuals doesn't mean manuals will be worth more. The fact of the matter is over 25,000 E9X M3 were produced for the US/Canada and over 11,000 were manuals. With those numbers I would think there is more supply than demand for either transmissions, so it's a buyers market not a suppliers.
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      08-17-2014, 09:22 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaddylo View Post
Just because there were more E9X M3 DCTs produced for the US than manuals doesn't mean manuals will be worth more. The fact of the matter is over 25,000 E9X M3 were produced for the US and over 11,000 were manuals. With those numbers I would think there is more supply than demand for either transmissions, so it's a buyers market not a suppliers.
I agree it's not the only criteria to judge future value, but the point is, finding a really nice example with an MT is going to become harder with each passing year, as more cars than ever are being ordered with DCTs
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      08-17-2014, 10:25 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3ray View Post
So basically you are refuting the first law of economics. The more items that are available the more they will be worth.

Also no cares about super cars on this thread. They are designed for people who want to spend more time tinkering with their e-gadgets than actually driving

And you should know that most super cars are using single clutch automatics, with the exception of Porsche's PDK
You need to have more demand for the supply variable to come into play...with less demand ( car enthusiasts continuing to progress towards faster better technology) then the amount produced does not matter. Plus for that niche that wants to go slower and feel connected, there is a huge supply. Nothing special that the M3 has it, you can go get a MT in a C6 Z06 that will outperform the M3 in every way, and 100s of other brands... so who cares, plenty of supply.

No one cares about supercars on this thread? Really? so your own interest in manuals is I guess representative of the majority on this forum? I guess based on your logic GTR owners and Ferrari owners (who will destroy you on the track) don't care about driving....??

Plenty using the dual, however, not the point ( you lump them all under automatics anyhow) dual is still faster and newer technology than the MT...this is what future buyers want.....irrelevant point.

Last edited by M3-S65; 08-18-2014 at 12:50 PM.
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      08-17-2014, 11:32 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
Yeah, I believe that's because the SMG wasn't a very good transmission, and it hasn't been reliable, and when something does go bad, it's expensive to fix. That's a pretty potent combo in the used market. I know I test drove a Z4 SMG, and it was literally the worst transmission I've ever drove. Granted, if I owned one, I'd probably learn how to drive it better, but still, most people dont' want to readjust their driving style for a transmission. The DCT is worlds different as a transmission, plus I think it suits the car a bit better. If you can downshift 3 gears in a few milliseconds to get more power when you need it, it doesn't matter as much that the engine isn't that torquey. Furthermore, so far it's been a pretty reliable transmission, and most of the issues have been seen fairly early in the car's life. So, we'll see.
You know in a 6mt you can skip gears to? You can go 5 to 2.
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