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      05-03-2012, 02:26 AM   #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Now that's the real question... but then again, why wouldn't the Miata power/torque be also enough for DD in the Toyobaru?!
IMO, almost any car (except for maybe the Smart...) have enough power/torque for DD. Very few car have the handling/fun that the Toyobaru or the Miata has, esp for the price. COG-wise only the LFA and a few Ferrari's have it as low as the Toyobaru. For 25k? Enuf said~
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      05-03-2012, 03:51 AM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
IMO, almost any car (except for maybe the Smart...) have enough power/torque for DD.
No way! Handling/fun-wise the following video just proves you wrong...

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      05-03-2012, 06:44 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Pure marketing... they know that the 0-62 mph time figure is, above everything else, a VERY powerful marketing instrument... and in the case of the Toyobaru it isn't stellar.
While I was thinking about this... it came up to me that it would be fairly easy for Subaru to marketing a so called up-rated version of the Toyobaru in the near future as a BIG 'step forward' by just making reference to a way better 0-62 mph time figure (since the present one is so modest)!

When in reality all they have to do is to raise the rev limiter just 400 rpm higher (from the actual 7450 rpm) even if the power gains would only be marginal (say 10-15 hp).

How?! Just loook at what insideline said:

Quote:
At 7.3 seconds, its 0-60 time (7.0 seconds using a 1-foot rollout like on a drag strip) isn't going to win over many drag racers. But this time comes with an explanation. The rev limiter in 2nd gear kicks in at 59.2 mph, requiring a second shift to achieve the milestone and slowing the time considerably.
And they are right about this... so let's go back to the math:

7450 rpm (BRZ's rev limiter) * k (const.) = 59.2 mph

y rpm (new rev limiter) * k (const.) = 62.0 mph

y = (62.0 mph * 7450 rpm) / 59.2 mph = 7802 rpm


So, with the rev limiter placed at 7850 rpm the engine is allowed to rev freely to 7800 rpm and the Toyobaru can reach 62.0 mph in 2nd gear which means that only one 'time-consuming' gear change is needed!

The 0-62 mph (and also the 0-60) time can drop significantly from 7.6 sec. to sub-sevens... say:

2014 New Toyobaru R (racing spec.) 0 - 62 mph in only 6.5 seconds, 7800rpm redline!!!


How about that as pure marketing propaganda?!
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      05-03-2012, 08:57 AM   #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
While I was thinking about this... it came up to me that it would be fairly easy for Subaru to marketing a so called up-rated version of the Toyobaru in the near future as a BIG 'step forward' by just making reference to a way better 0-62 mph time figure (since the present one is so modest)!

When in reality all they have to do is to raise the rev limiter just 400 rpm higher (from the actual 7450 rpm) even if the power gains would only be marginal (say 10-15 hp).

How?! Just loook at what insideline said:



And they are right about this... so let's go back to the math:

7450 rpm (BRZ's rev limiter) * k (const.) = 59.2 mph

y rpm (new rev limiter) * k (const.) = 62.0 mph

y = (62.0 mph * 7450 rpm) / 59.2 mph = 7802 rpm


So, with the rev limiter placed at 7850 rpm the engine is allowed to rev freely to 7800 rpm and the Toyobaru can reach 62.0 mph in 2nd gear which means that only one 'time-consuming' gear change is needed!

The 0-62 mph (and also the 0-60) time can drop significantly from 7.6 sec. to sub-sevens... say:

2014 New Toyobaru R (racing spec.) 0 - 62 mph in only 6.5 seconds, 7800rpm redline!!!


How about that as pure marketing propaganda?!
True. Either that, or, if they don't want to risk the higher redline, slightly adjust the gear ratio.
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      05-03-2012, 02:34 PM   #401
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It's funny - having designed a fast looking, but relatively inexpensive car(s), both companies may find themselves being panned for the lack of desired performance. They won't care if people still buy them, but it will be interesting to see if or how fast they offer more power.
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      05-03-2012, 07:05 PM   #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptack View Post
It's funny - having designed a fast looking, but relatively inexpensive car(s), both companies may find themselves being panned for the lack of desired performance. They won't care if people still buy them, but it will be interesting to see if or how fast they offer more power.
I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the Toyobaru for 'the lack of desired performance'... this is the best DD fun car that money can buy if you can live without the 4 seats of the 1M or if you can't live with 16.3 mpg in a daily basis (I'm doing 14.0 mpg consistently and I'm starting to not like it ):

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      05-03-2012, 08:05 PM   #403
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No turbo, no AWD... not really an STI, still an awesome car though
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      05-03-2012, 08:28 PM   #404
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The video makes the same point - the achilles heels on these cars will be their lack of power. That's not power needed to make them more fun to drive, but power compared to other cars that people will compare them to. To the 18-30 year old male buyers that these cars are directly aimed at that might make a difference. It's a very nice looking car, but they exist in a very competitive market where male insecurities run rampant.
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      05-04-2012, 11:29 AM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptack View Post
The video makes the same point - the achilles heels on these cars will be their lack of power. That's not power needed to make them more fun to drive, but power compared to other cars that people will compare them to. To the 18-30 year old male buyers that these cars are directly aimed at that might make a difference. It's a very nice looking car, but they exist in a very competitive market where male insecurities run rampant.

I think you are underestimating the sole MOST important factor for every car's dynamics... the weight and the way it is distributed. And that my friend is what makes of the Toyobaru such a unique proposition in today's car world.

If people are young and dumb enough to not acknowladge that before even trying it out then... well, I think they will never now what handling is all about and that's fine because this car was never envisioned for them in the first place.

The good news are you no longer need to spend at least four times the Toyobaru's price to understand all this!

As for the looks... I don't think it is one of its best attributes, BTW.

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-04-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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      05-04-2012, 05:33 PM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post

Let me do the math for you using the above formula:

7450 rpm (BRZ's rev limiter) * k (const.) = 59.2 mph

x rpm (rpm @ 40.0 mph) * k (const.) = 40.0 mph

x = (40.0 mph * 7450 rpm) / 59.2 mph = 5033 rpm


This means that at 40 mph in 2nd gear you don't even benefit of the Toyobaru's engine full potential because you haven't reached engine's max. torque yet which only appears at 6400 rpm.

@ 6400 rpm the speed has already increased to (40.0 mph * 6400 rpm) / 5033 rpm = 50.9 mph

So, you get the best useful window ONLY over 1050 rpm (7450 - 6400) with a max. speed variation of 8.3 mph before you need to shift up.

BG (BiscottiGelato),

I must reckon I was wrong and you were right about downshifting into 2nd 40 mph and get the best of the Toyobaru's engine.

Looking at the FA20 engine torque curve one can see that it's pretty flat around engine's max. torque from just under 5000 to 7000 rpm, thus it has a much wider usable power band than that I've mentioned:

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      05-07-2012, 08:25 PM   #407
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Subaru BRZ v Renaultsport Megane Trophy track test video

Remember the only negative review about the 1M?! Well... it seems that we've found the Randy Pobst of the Toyobaru's world. I'm starting to seriously doubt of reviewers that wear glasses... they seem able to see what nobody else can see!

Is that the reason why Chris Harris left EVO?!

I would rather wait for the Tiff Needell's review... he has recently joined EVO (when CH left) and he doesn't wear glasses!




Disclaimer: I wear glasses too!

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-07-2012 at 08:49 PM.
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      05-08-2012, 06:04 PM   #408
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Deep Dive: The Porsche 550 Revival Lives

Quote:

Retro design, modern power

The 551 would be launched as a roadster, but a coupe edition is set to follow suit in 2018. At this point, two design proposals are fighting each other for approval. One is notably more retro, displaying prominent power domes behind the rollover hoops and striking longitudinal air vents inspired by the original 550. The rivaling concept looks much cleaner, more modern - and somewhat more anonymous.

In either case, the sole available engine would be a turbocharged flat-four cylinder. Featuring aluminum block and heads, variable valve timing, an adaptive intake system, direct fuel injection, and a choice of one or two turbochargers, the only initially envisioned displacement is 1.6 liters. Expect three different tuning stages rated at 180 (551 base), 210 (551 S), and 240 (551 R) hp. The manual gearbox and the optional dual-clutch PDK transmission each sport seven forward ratios, just like the larger 911.

Subaru already have this kind of engine (Boxer Direct Injection Turbo 1.6L) and it is VERY clear why it will go under the Toyobaru's bonnet in the very near future.
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      05-08-2012, 06:58 PM   #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Deep Dive: The Porsche 550 Revival Lives




Subaru already have this kind of engine (Boxer Direct Injection Turbo 1.6L) and it is VERY clear why it will go under the Toyobaru's bonnet in the very near future.
Article says global sports car demand is declining... Really? Cuz of gas price? Cuz of population aging? Or cus they are not marketing sports cars at a reasonable price at all these days???
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      05-09-2012, 06:10 AM   #410
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What kind of Toyobaru did EVO test?!

Subaru BRZ 6-speed automatic, Limited trim.

BRZ........... MT (Premium trim)..... AT (Limited trim)
Weight....... 2762 lbs (1255 kg) ... 2822 lbs (1280 kg)
Gear Ratios
1st............ 3.626:1................... 3.538:1..............
2nd............ 2.188:1................... 2.060:1..............
3rd............ 1.541:1................... 1.404:1..............
4th............ 1.213:1................... 1.000:1..............
5th............ 1.000:1................... 0.713:1..............
6th............ 0.767:1................... 0.582:1..............
Final drive... 4.100:1................... 4.100:1..............


The significantly taller gear ratios of the automatic transmission, the automatic transmission itself, the combined weight of the AT (+47 lbs or 21 kg) and the Limited version (+14 lbs or 6 kg) all these things togheter but mainly the gear ratios difference don't make for a 'good engine feel' and more driving involvement, I reckon.

However, the very fine car balance must still be there. This time you just don't have the same ability to change it with the throttle as easily as you would with the MT. The chassis and steering feel from corner to corner, I am most certainly, still remain VERY good though!

Let me ilustrate this with the above example and formula [mph = (rpm x tire diameter) / (gear ratio x 336)]:

40 mph in 2nd gear with the MT the engine would be revving at 5033 rpm and just inside the 5000 - 7000 rpm engine's power band.

With the AT still 40 mph and in 2nd gear the engine would be revving at [5033 rpm * (2.060 / 2.188 )] = 4731 rpm


As you can see with the automatic transmission the engine would be revving outside its power band (5000 - 7000 rpm) where the torque cuve is higher and flatter and wouldn't therefore pull as hard.

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-09-2012 at 02:41 PM.
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      05-09-2012, 11:43 AM   #411
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It is now clear to me that EVO had a hidden agenda when they published the above mentioned article and it's another sad example of what has become a biased publication (and maybe here lies the reason why Chris Harris left EVO).

In that article one can read the following:

Quote:
The Subaru’s 2-litre flat-four engine serves up 197bhp and 151lb ft, enough for a 7.6sec 0-62mph time and 143mph top speed. The Renault’s 2-litre turbo unit boasts bigger outputs, though – 261bhp and 265lb ft – endowing it with much better performance figures, 0-62mph taking 6.0sec on the way to a 158mph top speed.

Subaru BRZ v Renaultsport Megane Trophy track test

While it was pretty unfair to compare such different performance to start with the argument was that both cars belong to the same price bracket so EVO got a point there.

What is not acceptable though is the fact that the numbers are wrong because Subaru automatic transmission BRZ does 0-62mph in 8.2 seconds, while the manual transmission BRZ does it in just 7.6 seconds and EVO's whatever conclusions about the test should always have had this in mind.

So, they are in fact comparing a car capable of 6.0s from 0-62mph to a car not able to do it in less than 8.2 sec. That's a HUGE difference (let alone the absent journalism accuracy!!!).

And, to better understand the real meaning of these performance figures just take note that the automatic transmission BRZ hits 62mhp still in 2nd gear thus making one gear shift less and yet it is slower, more than half second, than its manual transmission counterpart.

@ 7450 rpm (rev limiter) in 2nd gear the AT BRZ does 59.2 mph * (2.188/2.06) = 62.9 mph
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      05-09-2012, 02:39 PM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Remember the only negative review about the 1M?! Well... it seems that we've found the Randy Pobst of the Toyobaru's world. I'm starting to seriously doubt of reviewers that wear glasses... they seem able to see what nobody else can see!

Is that the reason why Chris Harris left EVO?!
The thing with Randy Pobst he doesn't have a bias against BMW's, I have seen review and praise the M3. He genuinely didn't like the 1M and had very good reasons why. No one can doubt this review, not even the wanna-be race car journalist that wish they had his racing pedigree. The day he was reviewing the 1M, he was getting in and out of some of best cars in the world.

As for Chris leaving EVO, I believe it was because of money.
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      05-09-2012, 02:43 PM   #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
It is now clear to me that EVO had a hidden agenda when they published the above mentioned article and it's another sad example of what has become a biased publication (and maybe here lies the reason why Chris Harris left EVO).

In that article one can read the following:

While it was pretty unfair to compare such different performance to start with the argument was that both cars belong to the same price bracket so EVO got a point there.

What is not acceptable though is the fact that the numbers are wrong because Subaru automatic transmission BRZ does 0-62mph in 8.2 seconds, while the manual transmission BRZ does it in just 7.6 seconds and EVO's whatever conclusions about the test should always have had this in mind.

So, they are in fact comparing a car capable of 6.0s from 0-62mph to a car not able to do it in less than 8.2 sec. That's a HUGE difference (let alone the absent journalism accuracy!!!).

And, to better understand the real meaning of these performance figures just take note that the automatic transmission BRZ hits 62mhp still in 2nd gear thus making one gear shift less and yet it is slower, more than half second, than its manual transmission counterpart.

@ 7450 rpm (rev limiter) in 2nd gear the AT BRZ does 59.2 mph * (2.188/2.06) = 62.9 mph
Anyone buying an automatic BRZ should be shot.

Matter of fact they shouldn't sell it in auto.
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      05-09-2012, 05:48 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
The thing with Randy Pobst he doesn't have a bias against BMW's, I have seen review and praise the M3. He genuinely didn't like the 1M and had very good reasons why. No one can doubt this review, not even the wanna-be race car journalist that wish they had his racing pedigree. The day he was reviewing the 1M, he was getting in and out of some of best cars in the world
Precisely! That's why his enthusiastic opinion about the Toyobaru was so meaningful...




How could I not like the guy?!


Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
As for Chris leaving EVO, I believe it was because of money.
It is always about money... the one you want and the one you don't!






PS: As a 1M owner who doesn't see it as a track car I understand every single word of Randy Pobst's view about the 1M. And, I just love the car for it.

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-09-2012 at 05:55 PM.
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      05-10-2012, 04:19 AM   #415
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^
Thanks for posting that video review. Actually one of the better reviews I have seen for the car.
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      05-10-2012, 06:43 AM   #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
^
Thanks for posting that video review. Actually one of the better reviews I have seen for the car.
Don't thank me, it was rfx45 who posted it first.

Except for the performance measurements which seem to be taken by reading the speedometer directly (they don't account for the speedo error, hence the lower values) I think it's the best review of the Toyobaru so far - both the journalist and Randy Pobst seem to have nailed it!

By comparing Randy Pobst's view on both the Toyobaru and the 1M we come to realize what he values the most in a car from a race driver perspective (which I think is common to every other race car driver):

Turn-in ability!!!


Essentially, that's the reason why he hated the 1M and what modern Bimmers are still lacking (M3 included, albeit in a less extent).

That's also the reason why when the engine is moved from the front to the middle or the rear of the car you instantly start to appreciate what a huge difference it makes when you drive the likes of Porsches, Lotus and so on... their turn-in ability, that is!

Finally, that's the reason why the much lower center of gravity of the Toyobaru's engine is such an important feature and what really makes the difference (like in the RX-8)... it can GREATLY compensate for the suboptimal front engine placement in a track car (drifting is other story though!).

Therefore, I don't have any doubts in saying that the Toyobaru is a much better track car than the 1M... now, just imagine a torquier engine under that bonnet!

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-10-2012 at 09:55 AM.
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      05-10-2012, 10:23 AM   #417
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For the sake of comparison here it is the video of Randy Pobst's view on the 1M (see minute 2:03):

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      05-10-2012, 12:07 PM   #418
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Re: Subaru BRZ concept

I will never consider a car from plagiarist people that are unable to bring their own design ideas.
Headlights have Audi's elements, taillights have BMW elements.

The japanese are good only at stealing and inspiring from those who dare to bring new ideas, new elements. They never have the guts to come in with something that is revolutionary just because they are afraid not to hurt their "reliability image".

That's why BMW is a winner and worthy of "the Ultimate Driving Machine" nickname.

Even if this car will be one of the best, for me it's a product of stealing of ideas and for me such people do not deserve my money or my attention.

I have a HUGE disrespect for these thiefs!

Last edited by Tracus; 05-10-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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