BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
Strasse Wheels
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-17-2012, 07:02 PM   #23
CanAutM3
Brigadier General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
72
Rep
4,373
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.75]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
After doing some , I stumbled on this:

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/aut...ry-831-14.html

I found it to be an interesting read. Gives another perspective. I might get the book to read it all .
Appreciate 0
      04-17-2012, 09:11 PM   #24
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
bigjae1976's Avatar
84
Rep
5,647
Posts

 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
I kept DSC on until I could work on controlling oversteer. Not sanctioned by me...but I would powerslide around the corner down the street from me when I come home for lunch (no cars, no people...my street is empty during the day). There's a drift practice in Ennis, TX soon...PM me if you want the info. Denis in Ennis...that's cool! You HAVE to be comfortable with oversteer before you move to R-Comps...I'm sure you read my anti R-comp rant. Now that I've gotten better with oversteer, except when my car is on fire I feel good with r-comps and no DSC.

I think your brake to throttle transition upset the car. That is a somewhat fast corner. If you come flying off the brakes and then nail the throttle, you'll upset the car. The hardest thing to smooth out is your brake application and release. Personally, I think I'm smooth on the throttle and steering...not consistent on the brakes. Some turns, I will threshold brake and turn in while ease off the brake as I apply steering input...maximizing your traction circle. I use this when I go into the bus stop (MSRH CCW) or Diamond's Edge (MSRH CW) and that's a great place to work on your brake release. You're kind of forced to be smooth so you'll concentrate on it. In that particular turn you spun, IIRC, I'm braking just to scrub a little speed and give the front tires more grip so the car turns in. Nice and smooth on the steering and throttle. to the apex and then go. I think the next turn is the place to use trail braking since you've got 2 throw away corners. Basically you want to carry as much speed as deep as you can into the carousel. Then set yourself up for the exit on to the front straight.

My impressions is that the back end on the E9X M3 will come around whereas the E46 will understeer. The excellent thing about the E9X M3 is the rear end is quite controllable. My E46 feels so much more planted but that could be the coilovers.

Question...what do you do on a DCT car when you spin? No clutch? Do you throw it in "N"?
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
Appreciate 0
      04-17-2012, 09:56 PM   #25
930Man
Second Lieutenant
930Man's Avatar
3
Rep
275
Posts

 
Drives: m3
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Raleigh

iTrader: (1)

DCS should be off all the time!
__________________

2009 AW M3
1995 E36 full race
Appreciate 0
      04-17-2012, 11:12 PM   #26
LiM3y
Major
LiM3y's Avatar
United Kingdom
20
Rep
1,254
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CT

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
After doing some , I stumbled on this:

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/aut...ry-831-14.html

I found it to be an interesting read. Gives another perspective. I might get the book to read it all .
It's a "must have" book...
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 06:15 AM   #27
CanAutM3
Brigadier General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
72
Rep
4,373
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.75]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Question...what do you do on a DCT car when you spin? No clutch? Do you throw it in "N"?
While having fun in an empty snow covered parking lot, the impression I was getting is that DCT is smart enough to detect that the car is in a spin and disengages the clutches.
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 06:33 AM   #28
Jaypod
Brigadier General
Jaypod's Avatar
No_Country
64
Rep
4,962
Posts

 
Drives: Frozen M3, AM V8V, 991 GT3
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for sharing - glad it was just a learning experience and no damage
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 07:33 AM   #29
Car54
Captain
10
Rep
899
Posts

 
Drives: 1999 Z3 Mcoupe | 2008 M3/4
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Lutz, FL

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
After doing some , I stumbled on this:

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/aut...ry-831-14.html

I found it to be an interesting read. Gives another perspective. I might get the book to read it all .
It's a must have I agree. And you should commit to reading it a few times...sometimes you just have to go back to the book as the concepts are hard to understand unless you experience it.

The racing in the rain chapter...I go back to read that every time I know I'll have a wet track day. Just can't commit to sliding the whole way through a corner so that I am not surprised when the car slides as the book suggests.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 09:08 AM   #30
Car54
Captain
10
Rep
899
Posts

 
Drives: 1999 Z3 Mcoupe | 2008 M3/4
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Lutz, FL

iTrader: (1)

I love wet track driving honestly....it's all the intenseness with half the speed and wear and tear. I'm that guy that goes out every session and dogs others that whine about it with excuse after excuse.

I'm especially annoyed when my students pass on wet track sessions...and sometimes even go home early.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 09:41 AM   #31
Gearhead999s
Major General
Gearhead999s's Avatar
93
Rep
6,814
Posts

 
Drives: F25 2.8d(wifes)F82 M4
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Car54 View Post
I love wet track driving honestly....it's all the intenseness with half the speed and wear and tear. I'm that guy that goes out every session and dogs others that whine about it with excuse after excuse.

I'm especially annoyed when my students pass on wet track sessions...and sometimes even go home early.
+1

Our 1st trackday this year was wet & cold 1-2c with snow on the grass in the AM.The preceeding days before I had e mails from most of the new students wanting to drop out due to the weather.We had a great day teaching proper exersizes with the majority of students commenting how much they learned in the crap conditions.We had one previous student out in his new GT3RS 4.0 on PSC's and he was out there the longest of anybody all day learning his car.Only saw his headlights a couple of times
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 10:20 AM   #32
LiM3y
Major
LiM3y's Avatar
United Kingdom
20
Rep
1,254
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CT

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Car54 View Post
I love wet track driving honestly....it's all the intenseness with half the speed and wear and tear. I'm that guy that goes out every session and dogs others that whine about it with excuse after excuse.

I'm especially annoyed when my students pass on wet track sessions...and sometimes even go home early.
I slap on the street tires and enjoy it. One of my favourite track moments was at NHMS at Turn 2, realizing that I had corrected oversteer and regained my line before I realized that I was oversteering - it was like "Holy Shit, did I just do that?"*

My avatar left shows how wet it was...it was taken that day.

*(the answer is probably "No, MDM did it!", but please don't spoil my moment, and I definitely moved the steering wheel! My only other evidence is when I was driving on the Interstate and the truck in front shredded a front tire and I was already braking before I "thought" I should brake. However, I still don't trust those unconcious reactions!)
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 10:47 AM   #33
Car54
Captain
10
Rep
899
Posts

 
Drives: 1999 Z3 Mcoupe | 2008 M3/4
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Lutz, FL

iTrader: (1)

Into a lawnmower as in value or purpose? Hopefully the latter!
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 01:14 PM   #34
dcstep
Major General
United_States
65
Rep
5,036
Posts

 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
I see lots of solid advice and analysis of your mistake(s). One or two car control clinics and a few autocross events will hone your recovery skills much more quickly than trying to learn it all on the track. Yes, you want to do perfect laps, but the reality is that you'll make mistakes and need to be able to recover from them. A couple of hours spent on a good, wet skidpad with good instruction will give you a year's worth of experience driving on the edge and over the edge.

Your slow reaction time tells me, not that you're slow, but you haven't been it that situation enough to make a brain-stem reaction required to adjust for the changing dynamics of the car. A good skid pad can give you the needed experience. Driving at and over the limit in AX also gives much of that needed experience.

Dave
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 01:34 PM   #35
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
bigjae1976's Avatar
84
Rep
5,647
Posts

 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
I see lots of solid advice and analysis of your mistake(s). One or two car control clinics and a few autocross events will hone your recovery skills much more quickly than trying to learn it all on the track. Yes, you want to do perfect laps, but the reality is that you'll make mistakes and need to be able to recover from them. A couple of hours spent on a good, wet skidpad with good instruction will give you a year's worth of experience driving on the edge and over the edge.

Your slow reaction time tells me, not that you're slow, but you haven't been it that situation enough to make a brain-stem reaction required to adjust for the changing dynamics of the car. A good skid pad can give you the needed experience. Driving at and over the limit in AX also gives much of that needed experience.

Dave
Good advice. My couple of offs are always at the forefront of my mind when I'm on the track. IMO, the 5 minutes I spent on the skid pad at the Performance Delivery Center during redelivery were invaluable to my car control skills. On my report cards from The Driver's Edge...car control is usually my highest mark. I could only imagine what a full day at the skid pad would do to improve my skills.
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 01:53 PM   #36
dcstep
Major General
United_States
65
Rep
5,036
Posts

 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Good advice. My couple of offs are always at the forefront of my mind when I'm on the track. IMO, the 5 minutes I spent on the skid pad at the Performance Delivery Center during redelivery were invaluable to my car control skills. On my report cards from The Driver's Edge...car control is usually my highest mark. I could only imagine what a full day at the skid pad would do to improve my skills.
Another very useful experience is a track day in the rain. My last Advanced M-School at VIR was in the rain on day-one. I was still getting up to 140+ mph after Oak Tree, but getting things hauled down there and at turn one after start/finish could be very exciting. I explored the limits of ABS more than once (BTW, if you modulate the brakes manually, the ABS works even better). Feeding in power and dealing with puddles and aquaplaning really gave a lot of car control experience in a short time.

Dave
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 02:54 PM   #37
Estoril Blue
Second Lieutenant
2
Rep
233
Posts

 
Drives: 2006 M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (0)

A few thoughts:

You are modifying the car well in advance of your own skills. The mods you are making are holding back your learning. They are not making you a better driver, not making you faster and are increasing your risk of a major off. Going four off in one session TWICE is a major clue that you are over-driving the car. Most respected organizations will end your weekend with two offs total. It looks like you are aiming for speed in advance of the driver skills that will support it.

Driving on R comps when you are just now turning off DSC is very unwise. VERY. I would look at this seriously if I were you. The R comps will hold back your learning - and since you are just now turning off DSC - you don't have the skill set developed to deal with the less predictable and quicker loss of grip in R comps.

If you look at your throttle graphic - you seem to be uneven on the throttle.... stabbing at it. That shifts weight forward and back and forward - and makes the car inherently unstable. Just before the loss of control - look at your full braking, sudden brake release and then a sharp throttle input (with steering in).... which led to the spin.

And as others have noted - your corrections were far, far to slow to save you.

Did you have an instructor in the car?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 05:49 PM   #38
TXmtrhed
First Lieutenant
TXmtrhed's Avatar
3
Rep
327
Posts

 
Drives: VO 1M
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Katy, TX

iTrader: (0)

TM,

If you're interested in getting some time on a skid pad, the LSRPCA is having a one day PDS on 4/28 at the Houston Police Academy. I've taken this class twice in the last year and a half, first in my 335 and then again last winter in the 1M. The class is split into 8 sessions, 4 in the morning and 4 in the afternoon and includes both a wet circular skid pad and an oval wet/dry skid pad exercise among others.

A bit pricey for non-PCA members but I personally thought it was worth while.
http://www.lsrpca.com/pds.htm

You driving at MSRH this weekend?

Paul
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 06:12 PM   #39
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
bigjae1976's Avatar
84
Rep
5,647
Posts

 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
It read the first post carefully...I thought you were in your E92 for some reason. When you add camber and a lot of front end grip...things change drastically. At least that's how my 330 was. I'd just understeer. After camber plates and fatter front tires...what a difference!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Another very useful experience is a track day in the rain. My last Advanced M-School at VIR was in the rain on day-one. I was still getting up to 140+ mph after Oak Tree, but getting things hauled down there and at turn one after start/finish could be very exciting. I explored the limits of ABS more than once (BTW, if you modulate the brakes manually, the ABS works even better). Feeding in power and dealing with puddles and aquaplaning really gave a lot of car control experience in a short time.

Dave
Yup...spent a weekend Motorsport Ranch in Cresson, TX. The older part of the track is like ice...learned a lot!
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 06:26 PM   #40
OC3
Havin' a blast!
OC3's Avatar
United_States
53
Rep
4,819
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
After doing some , I stumbled on this:

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/aut...ry-831-14.html

I found it to be an interesting read. Gives another perspective. I might get the book to read it all .
Nice read.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
... Question...what do you do on a DCT car when you spin? No clutch? Do you throw it in "N"?
Nothing. It'll downshift by itself, similar to when you coast to a stop at street without manually downshifting. It's like DCT does D-mode downshifting even when you're in S mode.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LiM3y View Post
I slap on the street tires and enjoy it. One of my favourite track moments was at NHMS at Turn 2, realizing that I had corrected oversteer and regained my line before I realized that I was oversteering - it was like "Holy Shit, did I just do that?"*

My avatar left shows how wet it was...it was taken that day.

*(the answer is probably "No, MDM did it!", but please don't spoil my moment, and I definitely moved the steering wheel! My only other evidence is when I was driving on the Interstate and the truck in front shredded a front tire and I was already braking before I "thought" I should brake. However, I still don't trust those unconcious reactions!)
Heh, I had a similar situation - i.e. I corrected oversteer, but the MDM did a neat job of bringing the tailend of the car inline and not let it fishtail all over the place, as shown in the following video.

Turned in a bit later than usual at this corner (thru the rearview mirror, spent a split second too long admiring the open-wheel formula car behind me), wound up too far right at the trackout, got rear passenger wheel onto the dirt, at which point I felt the backend swing out to the right. As seen in the video, I did quickly correct it (and would like to grab the credit for the car not spinning/snapping wildly). But, as soon as that rear passenger wheel got back on the tarmac, the MDM (processing things a thousand times a second) did a marvelous job and neatly brought the backend inline with the direction of the travel. I felt the backend swing back inline like it was going towards a strong magnet. No fishtailing back & forth. It was a neat dynamic sensation to the driver.

Second half of the video from the formula car that was following me visually amplifies that motion.

Had I been DSC off, I think the best that could've been achieved might've been for the backend to fishtail left & right as I try to correct it and just may be stay on tarmac & not touch the dirt on the left side.

__________________

BRP CW13 1:56 | CVR CW 2:01 | CVR CCW 2:02 | ACS 1:53 | WSIR 1:34
2013 E92 M3 Jerez Black DCT ZCP | JRZ RS Pro | Brembo | Endless | Volk TE37 18x10.5 squared | NT01/TD/ContiGrandAm | no other mods, nor weight shavings

Last edited by OC3; 04-18-2012 at 09:40 PM.
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 08:58 PM   #41
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
bigjae1976's Avatar
84
Rep
5,647
Posts

 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
One thing I would add is it that slides are easier to catch by thinking ahead. If I'm off my reference points then I start getting myself ready for something bad to happen. When I do that, I can correct or catch it everytime. The times that I've spun or gone off...I wasn't expecting it and not using my reference points like I should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
Nothing. It'll downshift by itself, similar to when you coast to a stop at street without manually downshifting. It's like DCT does D-mode downshifting even when you're in S mode.
Not sure I understand. I think I would want the clutch to disengage so I don't spin the motor backwards...how would downshifting help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
Turned in a bit later than usual at this corner (thru the rearview mirror, spent a split second too long admiring the open-wheel formula car behind me)
Similar thing just happened to me...I let a McLaren MP4-12C pass me, and when we approached a corner, I said, "Wow! That air brake is SO COOL!" and then I almost forgot to turn.
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
Appreciate 0
      04-18-2012, 10:03 PM   #42
OC3
Havin' a blast!
OC3's Avatar
United_States
53
Rep
4,819
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
One thing I would add is it that slides are easier to catch by thinking ahead.
Indeed. I heard more than a few very experienced track people say "you almost have to anticipate it."


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Not sure I understand. I think I would want the clutch to disengage so I don't spin the motor backwards...how would downshifting help?
Oh, I'm not saying I the driver downshifted. The car/DCT does it by itself.

In several spins I was in, I'd be in S3 at the beginning of the spin and, when the car came to a stop, it's in S1.

I even have a helmet-mounted video showing the dashboard in one of those spins where, somewhere during mid-spin, it changes from S3 to S2, then once the car came to a full stop, it changed to S1. I was too busy w/ the steering and throttle to be doing anything w/ the gear, including trying to put the DCT into N.
__________________

BRP CW13 1:56 | CVR CW 2:01 | CVR CCW 2:02 | ACS 1:53 | WSIR 1:34
2013 E92 M3 Jerez Black DCT ZCP | JRZ RS Pro | Brembo | Endless | Volk TE37 18x10.5 squared | NT01/TD/ContiGrandAm | no other mods, nor weight shavings
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2012, 05:40 AM   #43
ThunderMoose
Captain
14
Rep
971
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 C2S and 2003 E46 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: League City, TX

iTrader: (0)

I want to thank everyone for their honest and, in some cases, pretty frank feedback. There's always a risk when you put yourself out there, especially on the interwebz, that you'll hear some comments that may sting a bit. However, I suspect that there a lot more "student" drivers on this forum that can benefit the analysis that you guys put together based on my incredibly well produced video of my first spin off.

For those of you that were concerned that I was driving a car modified well beyond my driving skills, I certainly appreciate that feedback and agree. However, things sometimes turn out that way for a variety of reasons:
- I ended up with my R-Comps, as I found a nail in my PSS the night of. Admittedly, I wasn't too disappointed, because lets face it, fat tires on satin black Arc-8's look pretty menacing.
- I chose this weekend to take DSC off, because I had an instructor and there was the possibility that I was going to be solo qualified that weekend, and I knew that I wanted to re-learn to drive the car with an instructor at my side.

Where to next? Based on your feedback, I signed up with the local PCA at a PDS/Car Control Clinic. I agree that saving the car needs to be automatic and I am not there yet.

But you know what, I think I learned to adapt to the loss of BWM intervention pretty quickly that weekend. Most of the feedback you guys gave me was about making a smoother transition from brake to throttle as well as less stabbing of the gas. I believe I was able do that in the following sessions as I ran the next 4 without incident and at pace. Here's a video of the first session of the second day. One thing to note is that the ECU input for E46 M3 for brake is just a switch (on/off) and not a continuous analog (0-100%). So the video will show "100%" whether or not I tap or forcibly apply braking. (NOTE: Video didn't upload properly last night, so I had to restart the upload, but it should be available in the next hour or so)

Appreciate 0
      04-19-2012, 07:17 AM   #44
armyav8tor
n1smo
armyav8tor's Avatar
United_States
28
Rep
1,449
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
My philosophy is, the quickest way to learn the limit is to exceed it. I forgot where I got that from, I want to say I heard it from Kimi Raikkonen or Mika Hakkinen. So, there is no better place to do what you did than to do it on a big wide open track. As others have mentioned, the best place to exceed the car and driver's limit is at autox's. My M3 has eaten so many cones but that's a hell of a lot cheaper than Armcos. I think racing autox is gay but for improving car control there is no better place and then applying that knowledge to the track will make you a very well rounded driver. That's my approach and it has worked for me so far.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:26 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST