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      07-14-2007, 04:42 AM   #1
Robert
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A case of cannibalism on regular 3 series forum.

Does anyone else feel the 335i owners are overly negative on the M3 and try too hard to make a point?
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      07-14-2007, 04:59 AM   #2
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no. i own a 335, and am super excited and optimistic about the new M3.
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      07-14-2007, 05:08 AM   #3
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Here is the problem with any car:

The more money you spend, the less the performance increases. Take a 911 for instance, it´s quite a bit more than the M3, but the 911S is pretty much as quick.
The 335 is almost 1/3 cheaper, and its barely slower. Any car manufacturer displays this problem, and the higher the league, the more expensive this little extra gets.

Now, looking at the value of the 335i, I can imagine a lot of people feel like it is a better deal for the money, and it probably is. This little extra in performance for the M3, the sweeter look, and of all M3 characteristics etc. simply have their price.

On the other hand, the M3 is still relatively cheap in comparison to other models (911), and if its worth it for you: Go for it!

It is for me, and I cannot wait to drive it.
Best wishes,

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      07-14-2007, 08:11 AM   #4
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It will probably sting a little when they realize their chipped, non-warrantied cars still won't beat the new M3. The 335i is a great car and value - I don't know why a lot of them have a chip on their shoulder about the M3s.
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      07-14-2007, 08:55 AM   #5
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Some of you 'M' fanboi's people make me laugh.

BMW made a world-beating car with the 335i. We expected a world beating car with the M3, and so far there have been several disappointments, including the fact that you can take a 335i to the same level of equipment and performance as the M3 for $15K less well equipped. Argue all you want about that fact, please someone tell me how a 415 hp/295 TQ 'M' suspension modded M3 beats a 440hp/440tq suspension, wheels and LSD-modded 335i? Not going to happen, even if the M3 is underrated by 20HP. SAME CAR, different engine technology, less power in the M3. Swamp pitch in here because you claim the modded 335<the M3 in most performance measures....

In the meantime, now we hear the M3 runs N'ring times comparable or slightly better than the 911S. Encouraging! And how the 911S is the 'real' target. So, for the same money do I buy an M3 or a GT-R? The GT-R beats the 911TT! If you don't need a back seat the 'Vette, Cayman S, and Exige can play in this realm as well.

Or do we take the angle of the luxury coupe/sedan. The C63 has been tuned to handle by all accounts, and the CTS-V is strongly rumored to have 600HP, again at the same price points, and N'ring tuned. Or the modded 335i

I did a 2 yr lease on my 335i because I knew about these next generation cars. I have no loyalty to the 335i other than in the objective facts.

What I want is for the 'M' car to be special, nothing more, nothing less. I've been in the enthusiast, track, and racing game way too long to be blinded by a badge.

Last edited by sdiver68; 07-14-2007 at 09:12 AM.
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      07-14-2007, 08:58 AM   #6
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M3>335 with riced out mods (that cost so much you could have just gotten the car you really want anyways)
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      07-14-2007, 09:04 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
please someone tell me how a 415 hp/295 TQ 'M' suspension modded M3 beats a 440hp/440tq suspension, wheels and LSD-modded 335i? .

because you'll actually be able to sell an M3 when you're done with it


if you claim the price diff is $15 grand

software $1300
wheels/tires $3000 (335 doesn't come with 19", if you're really trying for performance you wouldn't be throwing on $200 replica wheels made in some guys garage and general tires right)
LSD $2000
suspension $1500
exhaust $1200
alignment $200

you've eaten up half the price difference just in parts, throw in labor to install it all and you could have just gotten the M3, and you're still missing all the special bits that make an M3 an M3
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      07-14-2007, 09:04 AM   #8
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LOL.

Since when does $52K = $67K (being generous here with the M3 pricing according to latest reports, assuming you can even get one)?

Car = $42K (can save another $3K here with ED, this includes PP, SP, heated seats)
Software = $1.3 installed
BBS forged wheels/tires = $4K installed
LSD $2K installed
3 way adjustable suspension (completely adjustable) = $2.5K installed, aligned, corner balanced

$51.8 total under this scenario

The wheels will be worth at least $1500 when you take them off in 3 years assuming no damage. The rest of the mods are probably throw away, though you may get some ebay value.
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      07-14-2007, 09:08 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
LOL.

Since when does $52K = $67K?
OK, I get it, you mean after mods it's still 15k less


so you think spending 8-12 grand on mods is a good idea


if you consider the wasted money on mods, you probably could be driving around in the M3 for a surprisingly similar cost of ownership
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      07-14-2007, 09:11 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Some of you 'M' fanboi's people make me laugh.

BMW made a world-beating car with the 335i. We expected a world beating car with the M3, and so far there have been several disappointments, including the fact that you can take a 335i to the same level of equipment and performance as the M3 for $15K less well equipped. Argue all you want about that fact, please someone tell me how a 415 hp/295 TQ 'M' suspension modded M3 beats a 440hp/440tq suspension, wheels and LSD-modded 335i? Not going to happen, even if the M3 is underrated by 20HP. SAME CAR, different engine technology, less power in the M3. Swamp pitch in here because you claim the modded 335<the M3 in most performance measures....

In the meantime, now we hear the M3 runs N'ring times comparable or slightly better than the 911S. Encouraging! And how the 911S is the 'real' target. So, for the same money do I buy an M3 or a GT-R? The GT-R beats the 911TT! If you don't need a back seat the 'Vette, Cayman S, and Exige can play in this realm as well.

Or do we take the angle of the luxury coupe/sedan. The C63 has been tuned to handle by all accounts, and the CTS-V is strongly rumored to have 600HP, again at the same price points. Or the modded 335i

I did a 2 yr lease on my 335i because I knew about these next generation cars. I have no loyalty to the 335i other than in the objective facts.

What I want is for the 'M' car to be special, nothing more, nothing less. I've been in the enthusiast, track, and racing game way too long to be blinded by a badge.
Well written, and valuable points. I really do like this comment, because it points out what a lot of people are not saying. The M3 is great, but some disappointments have also been observed. And what it appears, is that the
M3 has moved from a sports coupe, to become more of a GT. And the true sports coupe will be the CSL as additional model.

However, after all of this, how often do you actually race your 335 or M3 on the track? How often do you go full throttle in daily traffic?
Personally, I rarely or almost never drive quickly in the city, and only accelerate fast when going on a highway. And then on the backcourntry roads, I enjoy cornering almost more than acceleration.

But I love the looks, I love the engine sounds, and the simple feel of the M3, that the 335 lacks when you sit behind a wheel.
But at the end of the day, the M3 is more of an all-rounder than a true sports car, because the CSL will do that job. And thatīs just fine by me.

Best regards,

CSL
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      07-14-2007, 09:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL-Fanatik View Post

But I love the looks, I love the engine sounds, and the simple feel of the M3, that the 335 lacks when you sit behind a wheel.
But at the end of the day, the M3 is more of an all-rounder than a true sports car, because the CSL will do that job. And thatīs just fine by me.

Best regards,

CSL
Fantastic, the M3 sounds like the car for you! I'm really not here to denigrate the M3, we are really arguing about such minute points, but then that's what enthusiasts do on the bench and racers do on the track! The M3 is a great car.

In fact I'm done posting and generally only post when I see blatant misinformation on the competition. I'm just wishing for less weight and more HP, even though as you correctly point out 95% of my car's life will be off the track! So perhaps the CSL is the car for me
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      07-14-2007, 09:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
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if you consider the wasted money on mods, you probably could be driving around in the M3 for a surprisingly similar cost of ownership
Probably true, except I'm driving now and in the e90. And some of use prefer the sleeper look
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      07-14-2007, 10:25 AM   #13
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because you'll actually be able to sell an M3 when you're done with it
I thinks that's right on. A modded a 335i will only make it's value more questionable, used BMW buyers usually run from even modestly modified cars, whatever out of pocket savings you gain up front you'd likely lose down the road. Also, I drive my cars for a long time, I'd be unsure about putting big miles on a stressed 335i.

If I were looking for a used 335i I'd not be interested in inheriting the previous owners mods, it's not a Honda or Subaru. On the other hand, M cars retain their value quite well, and retain with the potential to extend their warranty.

Last edited by consolidated; 07-14-2007 at 06:34 PM.
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      07-14-2007, 11:12 AM   #14
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Does anyone else feel the 335i owners are overly negative on the M3 and try too hard to make a point?
Exactly I drive a 335i and I am still looking forward to the E92 M3. 335i is a fine GT, with decent torque, slow steering ratio, it's great for touring around town but in terms of chassis much work needs to be done and hope the completely different M3 underpinnings (mods with the 335i only extends to the shocks and springs the M3 got a completely different rear subframe and links in the back which no ordinary 3 series can match or upgrade to)+ structural reinforcements will do the job. 335i engine is nice, but with a rather low redline, diesel like torque curve which drops quite a bit above 5k rpm, really looking forward to the M3 engine which screams to 8k + rpm. Now that's a real sports car not matter how fast the 335i with Procede can be. And also not so sure how long these Procede equipped 335i engines and drivetrain will need a major overhaul with so much unintended HP and TQ.

The 335i is a decent car but even with all the mods (which I started doing but no Procede or other chip mods for me) the whole package just won't cut it.
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      07-14-2007, 11:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post

What I want is for the 'M' car to be special, nothing more, nothing less. I've been in the enthusiast, track, and racing game way too long to be blinded by a badge.
Exactly what were you expecting? It already eclipses its predecessor in every possible way except weight. You should know by now that there is a lot more to a car than just numbers. Maybe you can match or even surpass the M3 performance with your piecemeal 335 for less money. As far as the driving experience, I'm going to go ahead and trust the BMW engineers and get a complete car from the factory. The 335 is no doubt a great car but you're trying a little too hard here.
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      07-14-2007, 11:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
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Argue all you want about that fact, please someone tell me how a 415 hp/295 TQ 'M' suspension modded M3 beats a 440hp/440tq suspension, wheels and LSD-modded 335i? Not going to happen, even if the M3 is underrated by 20HP
1. M3 is not even available yet, so there are no "facts" at this point.
2. I'd be interested in seeing the impression on your face when your 440hp/440ftlb 335i eventually develops a crack in the block, chews up on its valves, and/or tears apart its transmission in a few years. You clearly don't have any technical insight, nor have any idea about why machines are rated. Yes, you sure can eat into safety margins on a street car and so on by pushing things to the limit, but you are trading off durability. I, like many people on this board, plan to own my M3 (or 335 if BMW prices the M3 too high) for several years.
3. In light of what I said above, I would never consider buying a car with a seriously moded engine (100+hp gains) where the power increases are not accounted for by beefing up the rest of the car and the structural components of the engine itself (which would cost much more than what you are quoting). So, you should add not only the cost of repairs/new engine down the line, but also the destruction of the resale value to your calculation.

Last edited by lucid; 07-14-2007 at 11:44 AM.
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      07-14-2007, 11:34 AM   #17
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The 335i is a decent car but even with all the mods (which I started doing but no Procede or other chip mods for me) the whole package just won't cut it.
I tend to agree. My 335i sedan is wonderful, but it will not be close to the new M3, despite all of the early complaints about that car. I don't plan to build an M3 from 335i because I know that money spent on mods is usually a complete loss. The next owner will not pay for them, taking the car apart and piece-mealing the parts is a hassle, and some prospective buyers will certainly be put off of such a car. Most people who buy non-M cars are not car enthusiasts, and sinking money into a 335i is a horrible waste of money despite the car's potential. Evo owners and Sti owners might actually seek a modded car. Also, If you don't appreciate BMW heritage, and the balance of drivability, safety, luxury, and involvement, why on earth would you pay the premium when you can buy a Z06, or a modded Evo, and demolish anything short of a Carrera GT or Enzo at the track? Bimmers have never ever been about absolute performance, and if that's your concern, then it is you who have been blinded by the badge, or misunderstood it.
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      07-14-2007, 11:37 AM   #18
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I tend to agree. My 335i sedan is wonderful, but it will not be close to the new M3, despite all of the early complaints about that car. I don't plan to build an M3 from 335i because I know that money spent on mods is usually a complete loss. The next owner will not pay for them, taking the car apart and piece-mealing the parts is a hassle, and some prospective buyers will certainly be put off of such a car. Most people who buy non-M cars are not car enthusiasts, and sinking money into a 335i is a horrible waste of money despite the car's potential. Evo owners and Sti owners might actually seek a modded car. Also, If you don't appreciate BMW heritage, and the balance of drivability, safety, luxury, and involvement, why on earth would you pay the premium when you can buy a Z06, or a modded Evo, and demolish anything short of a Carrera GT or Enzo at the track? Bimmers have never ever been about absolute performance, and if that's your concern, then it is you who have been blinded by the badge, or misunderstood it.
Well put.
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      07-14-2007, 03:55 PM   #19
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I see a lot of good ideas here and some of them I haven't even considered myself.

sdiver68, I see where you're coming from. I too see the 335i as the value play and I might have to resort to it if the M3 does start at 67k. (Well that opens a door to lots of cars, i.e. preowned cayman s, 335i, 135i and perhaps the low end of GTR and Supra.)

I am an engineer and I see the satisfication of building a beast of my own but reliability usually takes a dive. To be reliable, the aftermarket engineers really need take top down approach. Derive their parts from a system level specification and then engineer their products. However, my guess is they are doing a bottom up approach by building the products first and then stress test the system. If things don't break they will sell the product and if things do break then tweakble the settings.

For installations you have to take the car to a reputable installer to make sure everything is installed correctly. (I can do ecu, brakes, and most fuild but I don't think I can install LSD myself.) And then there is the issue of taking the car in for warranty service. All in all that's too much hassle for a daily driver.

But boy everytime I see this picture... I want a m3. 8 is greater than 6 no matter how much boost that's going into the 6. Just imagine a turbocharger for the 8, which I won't do because of reliability.

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      07-14-2007, 04:52 PM   #20
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Never ending...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
LOL.

Since when does $52K = $67K (being generous here with the M3 pricing according to latest reports, assuming you can even get one)?

Car = $42K (can save another $3K here with ED, this includes PP, SP, heated seats)
Software = $1.3 installed
BBS forged wheels/tires = $4K installed
LSD $2K installed
3 way adjustable suspension (completely adjustable) = $2.5K installed, aligned, corner balanced

$51.8 total under this scenario

The wheels will be worth at least $1500 when you take them off in 3 years assuming no damage. The rest of the mods are probably throw away, though you may get some ebay value.
Man I thought we beat this horse so dead it was not even recognizeable... Excellent replies by porscheguy, lucid, RandyB. Why do you have to resort to name calling. So many of us back up everything we say with good facts and good opinions. My experience shows there are just as many 335i fan boys as M3 fan boys.

Back to your actual "calculations". Which we have beat to a pulp many times in the past. You have left out brakes - which should be the first peformance hop up anyone does. Unless all show and no "stop" is your personal priority... What is a BBK, even a cheap one, $5.5k!! Sure you'd have "nicer" brakes than the M3 but would it out stop it? The chassis has a lot to do with that, not just some huge pretty red calipers. What about the cross braces to get some chassis stiffness and feel you should want (you'll be able to get those OEM from BMW - pretty reasonably priced!). What about an aero kit to insure maximum down force and a non-squirrely ride above 150 mph (whoops you can't even get one and if you could I would not trust the "engineering"). Hmm what's next, your base price - $3k below list has always been a point of contention, many have claimed they can not find such discounts but you want to argue basically for $3k of free aftermarket parts. Hmmm you better also include steel bushings and all the forged Al suspension arms in the M3 as you will need a lower unsprung weight for improved handling and feel (cost = $$$). Vishnu software to get a mere 380 hp is quoted on his website at $2665 without installation. Where the hell are your getting your numbers?? These alone (just the things I attached an actual price to) add $10k to your figures. Hell on top of that show me the reciepts for the above if that is your exact plan! Again, I'd be willing to bet you can not get those mods all installed for the total you quoted. Hell what about shipping (of a diff in particular!!), that'll be pricey!

And still after all the smoke clears, I'd still be willing to bet this car will not outperform a M3 with M-DCT on the track nor at the strip. You'd be getting quite close and have a damn nice ride, but > M3?, no << M3, for many reasons, both the hard performance numbers and the littany of other reasons pointed out here and in the previous debates on this subject.

Don't go back to "we don't know the numbers yet" for the M3 either. We have enough numbers from sprint, to track to braking to know it is a beast.



P.S. Anyone want to buy my heavily modded E36 M3? It handles like a go-cart but it drives pretty poor on the freeway and over any bumps, it idles really rad from the hot cams, like a 60's muscle car. The intake and exhaust noise is beautiful, even a bit Ferrari like, but I think I have permanent hearing loss from extended commuting and freeway use.
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      07-14-2007, 05:14 PM   #21
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swamp..ur the man!

forgot about the fact that he can easily spend over 5k just in repairs and maintenance. NOONE wants to spend this much money on a car and have no warranty!!!
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      07-14-2007, 06:13 PM   #22
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swamp..ur the man!

forgot about the fact that he can easily spend over 5k just in repairs and maintenance. NOONE wants to spend this much money on a car and have no warranty!!!
The worst is when something failed that isn't his fault but the dealer blames it on the modifications. An european car out of warranty doesn't support the value play of 335i
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