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      07-07-2007, 01:13 PM   #1
Garrett
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Has the //M Division failed us...?

Hello,

I've been reserve in my judgement of the new M3 because I was hoping that even after the press release there was somethng more, an "intangable" that wasn't on paper that made this //M so special. I'm starting to loose faith. I know all the technology that went into making the M and I am personally a tech-junkie, but alot of it doesnt translate well to what I percieve an M3 to be.

Light & Agile. I do not like the concept of a L O N G E R BMW. Plus the car looks cosmetically too fat, without the actual wheels dictating it's shoulders. I think BMW could've made fundemental strides to keep the M3 more Porsche like, so that you feel like your a Pilot and not just a driver. (AKA e30)

They made great strides in using a V8 thats was lighter than the previous inline-6, but at what cost...? 420 horses seems somewhat anemic for this pedigree of an icon, even though this car can rev quickly and has very long legs you still have to drive (rev) it hard to get any work done. The meager sub 300 ft-lb's of torque is what I'm unhappy about.

With such little torque the actual M3's performance numbers really don't distance itself from last years CSL. Why doesnt the M3 have Direct Fuel Injection (DFI)..?

I know the answer to this, offcoarse, Because next years model will go DFI and add about 10% more HP/TQ along with improved fuel economy. This really frightens me. Even the Venrable Porsche is going DFI and we all know how resistant to change the PAG group is. This illustrates that BMW is looking forward to their own "improved" version, the CSL instead of making a difinitive benchmark car that takes it's competitiojn head on. First and formost, this is an M3 I think BMW made an awsome engine, its just misplaced. I think the engineers went toooo oversquare with the engine and reducing the rev-limit by 600rpm's to gain more torque through the powerband would've been a better decision....


I know this is long winded, I just feel BMW's M division could've made a better powerplant without 8 butterfly's and put more technology into the drivertrain. I like the idea of a racy, high reving engine, but this cars performance numbers show it's lacking TORQUE. Also, BMW could've used alot more Carbon fibre and lessed the weight of the car substatially. Made it shorter with a fighterpilot cockpit and not some innovative airy, open Izod styled for tennis moms type of feeling I get. Audi or Porsche still have the right "feeling". Which, coincidentally has a much more driver-centric interior and not the feeling I'm on the deck of some yaught. I'm a driver, not a Sailor, so why does BMW insist on designing their interior with Sailboat ques..?

All that and I guess i didn't say much.








-Garrett
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      07-07-2007, 01:18 PM   #2
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The reason M is talking so much about the M3, is because they know they've had to act on internal pressure and make sure this M3 is a big hit and that means dumbing down, because sadly, the typical M3 buyer doesn't car for anything other than that badge. Don't jump on me, we aren't the typical M3 buyer any more, those days died with the 3.2 Evo, when they started to become more popular and plusher inside.

The CSL will be the true M3 and the M department are acknowledging that this early because they know us enthusiasts will realise that.
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      07-07-2007, 01:21 PM   #3
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M3 = not enough torque but good handling
RS4 = better power and torque but heavy and not as good of a handling
C63 AMG = heaviest but most power and worst handling compared to the other two

I am confused... might pull out my deposit and just get the 335i or the 1 series
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      07-07-2007, 01:28 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Chang View Post
M3 = not enough torque but good handling
RS4 = better power and torque but heavy and not as good of a handling
C63 AMG = heaviest but most power and worst handling compared to the other two

I am confused... might pull out my deposit and just get the 335i or the 1 series
True, the 335 seems more overall well rounded for its price. Some are already saying the 1 series will resemble the E46 M3 and may be a true M car.

As of now ill hold out for the E92 M, we still have awhile to go before its debut so i guess ill just sit tight and wait.
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      07-07-2007, 01:48 PM   #5
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The sky is falling!!

Lets all take a deep breath and wait until we can slip behind the wheel.
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      07-07-2007, 02:08 PM   #6
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When I read threads like this it further confirms that most people don't buy a car based on their own preferences, but merely follow the impressions of a handful of magazine articles or to fit a particular image.

Between E90post and M3post, there are several posts from people about to switch to MB or Audi over magazine articles. The M3 hasn't even been released. At least try the car out for yourself before you pass judgment on the car.
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      07-07-2007, 02:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Hello,

I've been reserve in my judgement of the new M3 because I was hoping that even after the press release there was somethng more, an "intangable" that wasn't on paper that made this //M so special. I'm starting to loose faith. I know all the technology that went into making the M and I am personally a tech-junkie, but alot of it doesnt translate well to what I percieve an M3 to be.

Light & Agile. I do not like the concept of a L O N G E R BMW. Plus the car looks cosmetically too fat, without the actual wheels dictating it's shoulders. I think BMW could've made fundemental strides to keep the M3 more Porsche like, so that you feel like your a Pilot and not just a driver. (AKA e30)

They made great strides in using a V8 thats was lighter than the previous inline-6, but at what cost...? 420 horses seems somewhat anemic for this pedigree of an icon, even though this car can rev quickly and has very long legs you still have to drive (rev) it hard to get any work done. The meager sub 300 ft-lb's of torque is what I'm unhappy about.
Agree. And IMO, using the far-from-being released E92 CSL as justification for a "soft" M3 does not hold water.

For first time M3 buyers, going for the M3 and not waiting for the CSL might make sense, and may/will find the car very rewarding. But for those who's had a taste of and owned an E46 M3, they may be get disappointed with the latest iteration and may want to wait for the CSL. Either wait for it, or test drive both M3 and C63 before even plunking down serious $$$. I think in terms of reliability and cost of ownership, car reviews can provide you solid data to go with. But for performance and driving satisfaction, I would trust only my own experience after actually driving the vehicle.

Cheers!
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      07-07-2007, 02:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyB View Post
The sky is falling!!

Lets all take a deep breath and wait until we can slip behind the wheel.
People who are more than capable just did.... did you read the reviews..?
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      07-07-2007, 02:23 PM   #9
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The problem is that if the enthisiasts abandon the M3, the posers will too. I think catering an enthusiast car to a casual market will be a disaster. Those who want the M3, be it for the badge or for the performance, will buy it anyways regardless how sharp the steering is or how rigid the suspension is. Where as if they soften it up, the enthusiasts will desert it, but it won't gain the Lexus crowd people either.
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      07-07-2007, 02:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CnoteMD View Post
When I read threads like this it further confirms that most people don't buy a car based on their own preferences, but merely follow the impressions of a handful of magazine articles or to fit a particular image.
Great post!

It's nice to read what others think who have driven it so far, but until we drive it for ourselves it's just entertainment.
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      07-07-2007, 02:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
People who are more than capable just did.... did you read the reviews..?
Did you read the comments made by Steved? He happens to own an E46 M3 CSL currently, and was impressed by it, even with the steering.
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      07-07-2007, 02:44 PM   #12
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It's sad how so many people can be swayed by a couple of bad reviews! Where's your autonomy? The E92 M3 is a much better car than what's sitting in 95% of your garages. While you guys sit around for another 3 years bitching and crying and waiting for the "real M3"(CSL), I'll be out enjoying what's here now.
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      07-07-2007, 02:53 PM   #13
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Finally some logic in this thread...... !
Quoting my rant:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
all you whiners are making me ill.......



"tube frame, carbon fiber floorpan" -- do you have any idea what this would cost to (mass) produce?

The M3 is what it is. BMW does not make sports cars, they make sports sedans and coupes. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Also, I find the term "badge buyers" offending. (with a 997 GT3, Lotus Elise, S2000, Boxster S, Evo 8 and Radical SR3 all in our collection, I think I speak with some credibility - sorry I had to bring that up)

Whiners and punks, go home or get your own "why we hate the M3" website... which, BTW you haven't even driven.
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      07-07-2007, 03:09 PM   #14
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I'm so sick and tired of people complaining about the 'lack of torque' from this new M3. you want torque? buy a corvette. low rpm torque is not what the M3 is about, never has it been, never will it be. it's about sustaining that torque all the way up to a screaming 8400rpm.

do you think F1 cars are lacking in torque? they only make around 280 ft/lbs torque but they make it at almost 18,000rpm effectively putting down almost 800hp...and please spare me the 'i can't believe you're comparing an M3 to an F1 car' discussion.

what people also fail to realize is that the huge range in RPMs available in the new M3 allows BMW M to mate the engine with very aggressive gearing. gearing multiplies torque. i think it was on here that i read that the new M3's gearing enables it to have more torque than a c6 z06 when multiplied out. i haven't actually multiplied this out but i would definitely not be surprised that it would be true. gearing is the very reason that the e60 M5 has been able to beat cars that they seemingly should not beat - gallardo, 360 modena, etc.

with all that being said i have to be honest and say that i'm not impressed with the recent reviews on the e92 m3. but reviews mean little to me without hard numbers. i'm just hoping that the performance numbers that come out for it aren't as disappointing.
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      07-07-2007, 03:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Chang View Post
M3 = not enough torque but good handling
RS4 = better power and torque but heavy and not as good of a handling
C63 AMG = heaviest but most power and worst handling compared to the other two

I am confused... might pull out my deposit and just get the 335i or the 1 series
No kidding. I guess we'll have to see how things go but a 335i with PROCEDE is looking like the ultimate choice right now. A 335i has gobs of torque at nearly 400 ft. lbs. and plenty of horsepower at around 340HP and it handles very well. I guess my test driving line-up for my next car is now going to consist of:

Audi RS5
Audi S5
Audi RS6
Audi TT (yeah, I'm considering it even though it's no M3)
BMW E92 M3
BMW 335i w/PROCEDE
Porsche Cayman S

Probably could knock out all the test drives in one day. Visit the Audi dealership, then BMW, then Porsche.
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      07-07-2007, 03:24 PM   #16
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I'm so sick and tired of people complaining about the 'lack of torque' from this new M3. you want torque? buy a corvette. low rpm torque is not what the M3 is about, never has it been, never will it be. it's about sustaining that torque all the way up to a screaming 8400rpm.
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No kidding. I guess we'll have to see how things go but a 335i with PROCEDE is looking like the ultimate choice right now.
Im sick and tired of hearing Procede this, Procede that...if ya'll wanna talk about Procede then lets see what Procede has to offer for the M3 when it comes out and then we'll talk.
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      07-07-2007, 03:49 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FifthStreetz View Post
+1



Im sick and tired of hearing Procede this, Procede that...if ya'll wanna talk about Procede then lets see what Procede has to offer for the M3 when it comes out and then we'll talk.
"So it's like that then!?!"
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      07-07-2007, 04:04 PM   #18
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Where on a test drive are you likely to experience the outer reaches of the M3's repertoire? Perhaps those who aren't happy with it at the moment are letting the people who've taken it to limits and know their onions let them know that they might not enjoy the car at the sort of levels they'd like to drive it?

Christ, we aren't all happy to accept whatever M throws at us and willing to crown it as the new messiah.
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      07-07-2007, 06:51 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Chang View Post
M3 = not enough torque but good handling
RS4 = better power and torque but heavy and not as good of a handling
C63 AMG = heaviest but most power and worst handling compared to the other two

I am confused... might pull out my deposit and just get the 335i or the 1 series
cayman s?
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      07-07-2007, 06:55 PM   #20
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This is getting ridiculous....
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