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      02-15-2012, 11:52 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
I'm less an engineer and more a driver - I've driven some impressive dampers from 1-way Konis all the way to 5-way Ohlins. The difference is incomparable, it's like driving 2 different vehicles.
I think you might have a good point as i have always wondered what the difference between a $300 Single-Tube 2-way Koni is versus a $600 JRZ Single-Tube 2-way.
I understand the 2, 3, 4-way difference ... but not the price difference between the same features on different damper manufacturers.

Having a 7-post dyno in the US is a big + for KW in terms of setting up race cars.
And they definitely make a great product.
In this case however, i choose the Pepsi blind taste test, as Ohlins are used in some of the fastest handling cars in the world pushing 5g lateral = F1
So if it came to a choice between a $3500 2-way KW CS and a $12,000 Ohlins 3-way ... i would def go with the Ohlins due to the reputation and proven track wins and $3,000 per damper price tag

I think your point is well thought out and it's beginning to be proven true on the amateur racing circuit, where AST is making great dampers with some minor quality issues perform as good as the more expensive JRZ and Motons.
I believe Ohlins has a shaker rig here in the US as well.

I agree on the differences in performance on the dampers. Moving from the Koni twin tube design with custom valving(KW is twin tube as well for most of their street and track products) to AST4200 on the 1M, it's like stepping into a different car.

Ohlins will have a more affordable R&T product for the 1M/M3 in April and should have bettter performance than most if not all single adjust coilover systems out there.

Will I pick TTX over KW Comp? Yes.

AST4200 application on the M3 had some issues in the earlier stages, mainly with leaking struts or dampers, but they have been resolved. With the latest internal guide, seals and piston upgrades these already great dampers will be even better.
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      02-16-2012, 09:22 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I've done this with most of the major damper manufacturers - Penske, Bilstein, Koni, Ohlins, JRZ, AST, KW, Sachs, Moton, etc. The damper curves don't vary nearly as much as the prices do.



I'm challenging the notion that high end racing dampers produce materially better damping curves than less expensive clubsport dampers. I have carefully stayed away from getting into a debate about who has the best adjusters. My thoughts on the issue you raised go like this: I listed nine high-end damper makers including the two you talked about. Are the other seven so incompetent that they can't make adjusters with no crosstalk? I doubt it. The real question is "why do seven of the nine not bother to do it?" I don't know why they don't. Maybe they do and they just don't make a fuss about it. Maybe their customers, professional racing teams, simply don't care. It's an interesting question, though.
Have you driven a vehicle with any of the equipped dampers?

I don't think you can compare a KW CS shock dyno to any top shelf damper, it has much less range.

Example - you can download the dyno on a TTX36 HERE

Compared to a KW V3 valving (KW CS will be slightly different but not by much)




Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
I believe Ohlins has a shaker rig here in the US as well.

I agree on the differences in performance on the dampers. Moving from the Koni twin tube design with custom valving(KW is twin tube as well for most of their street and track products) to AST4200 on the 1M, it's like stepping into a different car.

Ohlins will have a more affordable R&T product for the 1M/M3 in April and should have bettter performance than most if not all single adjust coilover systems out there.

Will I pick TTX over KW Comp? Yes.

AST4200 application on the M3 had some issues in the earlier stages, mainly with leaking struts or dampers, but they have been resolved. With the latest internal guide, seals and piston upgrades these already great dampers will be even better.
The thing about AST is they're great when they're working, and the problem is they have a high rate of failure/problems. As a user of aftermarket products I know that the down time due to an unreliable product is priceless.

Not to mention it's also going to cost you in either time or money, you maybe paying out of pocket to install/uninstall a product, or not being able to drive the vehicle (worse if its your daily), and the least concern would be missing track events.
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      02-16-2012, 09:47 PM   #47
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Just like with chassis dynos, the dyno is the dyno and the track is the track. A market for Ohlins' $$$$$ dampers would not exist if they did not provide a benefit measurable on the stopwatch. This is another case of very few people having personal experience and lots of people thinking they can replicate that experience by reading about what they've done on the internet...
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      02-16-2012, 10:46 PM   #48
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updated some pictures

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      02-16-2012, 10:47 PM   #49
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thanks for all the guys giving some great information on shocks dyno's and such detailed info
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      02-16-2012, 11:37 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elementary View Post
I don't think you can compare a KW CS shock dyno to any top shelf damper, it has much less range.

Example - you can download the dyno on a TTX36 HERE

Compared to a KW V3 valving (KW CS will be slightly different but not by much)

I believe that the TTX pdf shows damping curves using different shim stacks/valving at 12 clicks of compression and rebound... whereas KW's plot shows damping curves using the same valving but at different compression and rebound clicks. But point taken.

Range is one of many aspects of looking at a damper. Other common criteria include resolution (how fine one can adjust the damping), repeatability (whether click #12 will always give you the same curve), consistency (whether the damping curve changes significantly under heat/repeated use), crosstalk (or lack of, this is whether a change in compression setting affects rebound, or vice versa), internal friction, lift force, hysteresis, cavitation, etc. etc. Point is, there are many, many factors to consider.

I think that the value of the Ohlin's TTX line is that they are extremely simple to use and tuneable to whatever damping curve/shape that tickles your fancy. They are of a twin tube design and the shock piston is solid (unlike most dampers on the market), so all damping is controlled by the external valves mounted behind the knobs you see on the body of the shock. And because of these external valves, changing stack/shim can be extremely easy without the need to open up the entire damper.

Most dampers on the market achieve damping by controlling fluid displaced by the shaft (typically about 2X mm dia. or so), where as TTX controls fluid displaced by its solid piston (as large as 46 mm). This is especially important for formula cars and/or cars which have very little suspension travel.

Ohlins also provide a very high amount of resolution between different 'clicks' which can be appreciated by pro drivers who are consistent enough in their driving to notice the slightest difference.

For those who are really interested, I've attached the TTX40/46 users manual. A lot of great information inside.
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File Type: pdf TTX40_TTX46MT_Owner_Manual.pdf (10.00 MB, 109 views)
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      02-16-2012, 11:44 PM   #51
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Thanks for the pictures! Let us know how your rear holds up. Log your miles. You are one of the first (with a street-legal car) to have a coil over rear without a roll cage that reinforces the rear top mounts.
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      02-17-2012, 12:36 AM   #52
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Basically, what Richard said.

As soon as you start comparing adjustment approaches and designs, you end up in an indeterminate debate. Most of the high end dampers can be valved and adjusted to produce a damper curve that's the optimum for a car, a spring and bar setup and a track. Pro teams use technicians, tools, data acquisition and easy to rebuild dampers to achieve this goal. The range of adjustability can be zero - fixed with no adjusters like F1 to wide, like the Ohlins for GT cars. None of them is "best"; they're all "excellent" and that's as much of a conclusion as you can draw. After that, it's all down to the human that sets them up and the tools they use.

I remember a racing series (VLN perhaps?) where more than half the field runs KW competition dampers. That's the half of the field that the winner usually comes from. Could these cars win by switching to Ohlins? Apparently not, otherwise they'd all be running Ohlins. My point isn't that KW is better than Ohlins. My point is that talented people who know how to set up KW's can produce winning cars that outperform Ohlins equipped cars in that particular series. Other series' produce other, often completely different, results.

If I had to pick the key factors that distinguish racing dampers like Ohlins and the rest of that breed, it's that they don't really sell dampers. They sell damper kits - a basic design and a cabinet full of parts that you can blend to produce any curves you like. That's where the real market is for these suppliers. Anyone who wants to buy a damper, adjust it and go driving is better off with a clubsport type of unit from one of the companies that make them.

Last edited by JAJ; 02-17-2012 at 01:00 AM.
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      02-17-2012, 04:33 AM   #53
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KW sponsored a ton of cars in the VLN - it's not a fair comparison.
I would say that it's very possible that a switch to Ohlins could yield faster lap times.
And i believe it was last years 2-time VLN champions that were running Ohlins.

Also, Eugene ... why do you not have a set of helper springs on that kit?
And how are you reinforcing your rear shock tower to combat the additional force of the springs? = it was not designed for that type of setup in the rear.
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      02-17-2012, 10:42 AM   #54
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I just took the car out for a drive!

I'm very surprised on a couple of points.

1. with a softer spring rate the car feels more ''stable''

2. it seems the set up is more ''detailed'' like you can feel the road more especially on the rear

3. also seems to plant down power a bit better

but its wet out so I can't do much so far so good interesting first day.

as for the lower support the kit doesn't come with helper springs on the rear don't know why but I'll find out
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      02-17-2012, 10:44 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
Thanks for the pictures! Let us know how your rear holds up. Log your miles. You are one of the first (with a street-legal car) to have a coil over rear without a roll cage that reinforces the rear top mounts.
thanks! i'm just very surprised at the detail it gives me on the rear of the car. the front also but not as much
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      02-17-2012, 11:52 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN View Post
I just took the car out for a drive!

I'm very surprised on a couple of points.

1. with a softer spring rate the car feels more ''stable''

2. it seems the set up is more ''detailed'' like you can feel the road more especially on the rear

3. also seems to plant down power a bit better

but its wet out so I can't do much so far so good interesting first day.

as for the lower support the kit doesn't come with helper springs on the rear don't know why but I'll find out
Thanks for the review - too bad it was wet, although you can learn a lot about balance in the wet. You said a softer spring rate - a softer spring rate compared to what?

With the coil-over configuration you have a higher motion ratio so you get more effective spring rate at the tire with a lower rate spring on the shock than you would with the spring in the factory perches. A 375#/inch spring around the shock yields the same 260#/inch wheel rate as an 800#/inch spring in the OEM perches.
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      02-17-2012, 05:44 PM   #57
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OP, as others have discussed above, setup is critical in realizing the benefits of a high end shock like these. Will you be setting these up yourself or do you have an engineer you are working with? A well setup car is a beautiful thing.. It took me half a season to dial in my car for all of my tracks and variables such as tires, weather etc. I can't imagine how much effort it would take to optimize yours given the number of adjustment knobs and infinite valving options. Keep us posted!
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      02-17-2012, 07:01 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyBobby View Post
OP, as others have discussed above, setup is critical in realizing the benefits of a high end shock like these. Will you be setting these up yourself or do you have an engineer you are working with? A well setup car is a beautiful thing.. It took me half a season to dial in my car for all of my tracks and variables such as tires, weather etc. I can't imagine how much effort it would take to optimize yours given the number of adjustment knobs and infinite valving options. Keep us posted!
AE's guy is helping me out with setting up the car. Seems like a long process and the weather is not helping in Taiwan
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      02-17-2012, 07:02 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
Thanks for the review - too bad it was wet, although you can learn a lot about balance in the wet. You said a softer spring rate - a softer spring rate compared to what?

With the coil-over configuration you have a higher motion ratio so you get more effective spring rate at the tire with a lower rate spring on the shock than you would with the spring in the factory perches. A 375#/inch spring around the shock yields the same 260#/inch wheel rate as an 800#/inch spring in the OEM perches.
my comp set up was like 600lbs front and 800lbs rear

there are about 150lbs less
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      02-17-2012, 07:13 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN View Post
my comp set up was like 600lbs front and 800lbs rear

there are about 150lbs less
Please post your current Swift spring rates front and rear.
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      02-19-2012, 08:47 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
I believe Ohlins has a shaker rig here in the US as well.

I agree on the differences in performance on the dampers. Moving from the Koni twin tube design with custom valving(KW is twin tube as well for most of their street and track products) to AST4200 on the 1M, it's like stepping into a different car.

Ohlins will have a more affordable R&T product for the 1M/M3 in April and should have bettter performance than most if not all single adjust coilover systems out there.

Will I pick TTX over KW Comp? Yes.

AST4200 application on the M3 had some issues in the earlier stages, mainly with leaking struts or dampers, but they have been resolved. With the latest internal guide, seals and piston upgrades these already great dampers will be even better.
do you have the April date on good authority? I recall you thought these were gonna be out some time ago. Feels like we're chasing a ghost here. Also what's the expected price point?

Eugene- sorry for the off-topic. Congrats again. I've always been impressed by your car, your taste, and purchase of top-quality only products. I'm envious of your new suspension. Well done mate.
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      02-19-2012, 11:28 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
do you have the April date on good authority? I recall you thought these were gonna be out some time ago. Feels like we're chasing a ghost here. Also what's the expected price point?

Eugene- sorry for the off-topic. Congrats again. I've always been impressed by your car, your taste, and purchase of top-quality only products. I'm envious of your new suspension. Well done mate.
no worries bro!

thanks for the kind comments
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      02-20-2012, 01:58 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
do you have the April date on good authority? I recall you thought these were gonna be out some time ago. Feels like we're chasing a ghost here. Also what's the expected price point?

Eugene- sorry for the off-topic. Congrats again. I've always been impressed by your car, your taste, and purchase of top-quality only products. I'm envious of your new suspension. Well done mate.
My info is only as good as what Ohlins can tell me. It's common for manufactures to push back release dates without notice.

There is not really much more information on the 1M/ M3 R&T system, your guess is as good as mine at this point.
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      02-20-2012, 02:07 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
Please post your current Swift spring rates front and rear.

From the photos it looks like 12kg/14kg.
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      02-20-2012, 02:44 AM   #65
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I wonder how those top mounts in the rear will hold up, especially if you were to run higher spring rates....
Atleast you can run a lower spring rate in the rear now.
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      02-20-2012, 11:53 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvpouldar26 View Post
I wonder how those top mounts in the rear will hold up, especially if you were to run higher spring rates....
Atleast you can run a lower spring rate in the rear now.
The mounts will hold up just fine. The towers on the other hand will need to be reinforced.

With this setup there is little to no spring rate spikes and the rear damper in the eye to eye mount will no longer have side/bending loads.
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