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      02-11-2012, 01:08 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
TTX vs KW CS = 458 vs 355
If you're referring to the difference between a Ferrari F458 vs an F355, you're a long way off the mark.

Most high end racing dampers do the same thing the same way and the differences are subtle at best. While CS is not a "racing damper" per se, like Bilstein, they use the same technology in the street products and the racing products. The differences are in the externals like spring perches and camber plates. The dampers and struts don't vary much between the "competition" and "street/track" products.
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      02-11-2012, 02:37 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
If you're referring to the difference between a Ferrari F458 vs an F355, you're a long way off the mark.

Most high end racing dampers do the same thing the same way and the differences are subtle at best. While CS is not a "racing damper" per se, like Bilstein, they use the same technology in the street products and the racing products. The differences are in the externals like spring perches and camber plates. The dampers and struts don't vary much between the "competition" and "street/track" products.
Your comparing an Ohlins 3-way race damper to a KW Clubsport 2 way??
Let me revise:
This TTX Kit vs. KW CS = 458 vs. Civic Si

Better?
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      02-11-2012, 12:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
Your comparing an Ohlins 3-way race damper to a KW Clubsport 2 way??
Let me revise:
This TTX Kit vs. KW CS = 458 vs. Civic Si

Better?
TTX vs KW CS...There is no comparison. CS 2-way is really like a Civic and the TTX 3-way is the Ferrari, not really in the same league.
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      02-11-2012, 01:33 PM   #26
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I agree that they're widely different in terms of price, but I just don't buy the notion that there are significant differences in performance. In the end it all comes down to the shape and stability of the damper curve, and all high end dampers can be set up to produce pretty much any curve you'd like.
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      02-11-2012, 03:51 PM   #27
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Hahaha if I were paying $10,000+ for a set of coil overs, they better be like a Ferrari compared to other systems which cost half as much

On a more serious note, I do agree with JAJ that on a street M3, the benefits of TTX dampers are greatly diminished because the rest of the suspension have a significant amount of play in them (bushings, ball joints, etc.) Now, on a purpose-built race car it will be a different story. But in all cases, the right set up (springs, damping curve, alignment, ride height) is just as critical as having good dampers.

Cheers,
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      02-12-2012, 08:11 AM   #28
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to be honest I just got it because i was curious not other reason
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      02-12-2012, 09:44 PM   #29
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^You got a hell of a deal and if I had the points to spare on my NASA TTA car, I would have picked up the same set (piggyback shocks are 4 more points). Let us know how you like it
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      02-12-2012, 09:52 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
TTX vs KW CS...There is no comparison. CS 2-way is really like a Civic and the TTX 3-way is the Ferrari, not really in the same league.
isn't that what i wrote?
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      02-12-2012, 09:53 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I agree that they're widely different in terms of price, but I just don't buy the notion that there are significant differences in performance. In the end it all comes down to the shape and stability of the damper curve, and all high end dampers can be set up to produce pretty much any curve you'd like.
You cannot setup the KW CS dampers to perform the same tasks as the TTX 3-ways -- it's just not physically possible

And we are comparing dampers to dampers and not surrounding accessories.
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      02-12-2012, 11:24 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
You cannot setup the KW CS dampers to perform the same tasks as the TTX 3-ways -- it's just not physically possible...
And what is unavailable on the CS that's achievable on a TTX?
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      02-12-2012, 11:37 PM   #33
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A good suspension like Eugene's can be dialed in nicely for streets. Congrats on the new set up!
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      02-13-2012, 12:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
^You got a hell of a deal and if I had the points to spare on my NASA TTA car, I would have picked up the same set (piggyback shocks are 4 more points). Let us know how you like it
I will keep that in mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd15 View Post
A good suspension like Eugene's can be dialed in nicely for streets. Congrats on the new set up!
thanks!
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      02-13-2012, 02:56 AM   #35
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Are these as good as H&R Springs + OEM EDC?
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      02-13-2012, 04:07 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
And what is unavailable on the CS that's achievable on a TTX?
TTX design/technology allows for a very fine and effective/responsive damper adjustment which in turn increases mechanical grip levels in areas KW cannot even compare.

Go download Ohlins TTX shock dyno's and compare them with KW CS, hell compare them with KW Competition if you wanted. Ohlins is in a different league.

The only one with an adjustment similar to Ohlins TTX is the latest JRZ 12-31 and 12-41 damper which allows you to adjust compression/rebound completely independent from each other, meaning when you adjust the rebound it will not affect compression. Ohlins/JRZ are the only 2 companies that currently offer that type of adjustment for GT/Production cars.
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      02-13-2012, 08:54 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StylePoints View Post
Are these as good as H&R Springs + OEM EDC?
I'd say just about the same with some weight loss of course
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      02-13-2012, 09:02 PM   #38
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ohhh the weight! your shipping must be cheaper! =)
just kidding!
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      02-13-2012, 09:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
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ohhh the weight! your shipping must be cheaper! =)
just kidding!
wasn't too bad! your right
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      02-13-2012, 10:59 PM   #40
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Very very very nice.

It would be nice to hear your before and after comparison once you get them installed.

I am sure many others would be interested too.
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      02-14-2012, 02:41 AM   #41
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Quote:
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wasn't too bad! your right
Do you race Jay Chao in Dansuai...heard he got quiet a collection...wonder if he is a good driver
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      02-14-2012, 02:52 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elementary View Post
TTX design/technology allows for a very fine and effective/responsive damper adjustment which in turn increases mechanical grip levels in areas KW cannot even compare.
Most damper companies make similar claims about their adjustable products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elementary View Post
Go download Ohlins TTX shock dyno's and compare them with KW CS, hell compare them with KW Competition if you wanted. Ohlins is in a different league.
I've done this with most of the major damper manufacturers - Penske, Bilstein, Koni, Ohlins, JRZ, AST, KW, Sachs, Moton, etc. The damper curves don't vary nearly as much as the prices do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elementary View Post
The only one with an adjustment similar to Ohlins TTX is the latest JRZ 12-31 and 12-41 damper which allows you to adjust compression/rebound completely independent from each other, meaning when you adjust the rebound it will not affect compression. Ohlins/JRZ are the only 2 companies that currently offer that type of adjustment for GT/Production cars.
I'm challenging the notion that high end racing dampers produce materially better damping curves than less expensive clubsport dampers. I have carefully stayed away from getting into a debate about who has the best adjusters. My thoughts on the issue you raised go like this: I listed nine high-end damper makers including the two you talked about. Are the other seven so incompetent that they can't make adjusters with no crosstalk? I doubt it. The real question is "why do seven of the nine not bother to do it?" I don't know why they don't. Maybe they do and they just don't make a fuss about it. Maybe their customers, professional racing teams, simply don't care. It's an interesting question, though.
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      02-14-2012, 02:53 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANILE8 View Post
Very very very nice.

It would be nice to hear your before and after comparison once you get them installed.

I am sure many others would be interested too.
I will do that for sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by StylePoints View Post
Do you race Jay Chao in Dansuai...heard he got quiet a collection...wonder if he is a good driver
I saw his SLR a couple of times but never spoken to him.

but I have met JJ lin and Jackie Chan's son before
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      02-15-2012, 06:54 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
Most damper companies make similar claims about their adjustable products.



I've done this with most of the major damper manufacturers - Penske, Bilstein, Koni, Ohlins, JRZ, AST, KW, Sachs, Moton, etc. The damper curves don't vary nearly as much as the prices do.



I'm challenging the notion that high end racing dampers produce materially better damping curves than less expensive clubsport dampers. I have carefully stayed away from getting into a debate about who has the best adjusters. My thoughts on the issue you raised go like this: I listed nine high-end damper makers including the two you talked about. Are the other seven so incompetent that they can't make adjusters with no crosstalk? I doubt it. The real question is "why do seven of the nine not bother to do it?" I don't know why they don't. Maybe they do and they just don't make a fuss about it. Maybe their customers, professional racing teams, simply don't care. It's an interesting question, though.
I'm less an engineer and more a driver - I've driven some impressive dampers from 1-way Konis all the way to 5-way Ohlins. The difference is incomparable, it's like driving 2 different vehicles.
I think you might have a good point as i have always wondered what the difference between a $300 Single-Tube 2-way Koni is versus a $600 JRZ Single-Tube 2-way.
I understand the 2, 3, 4-way difference ... but not the price difference between the same features on different damper manufacturers.

Having a 7-post dyno in the US is a big + for KW in terms of setting up race cars.
And they definitely make a great product.
In this case however, i choose the Pepsi blind taste test, as Ohlins are used in some of the fastest handling cars in the world pushing 5g lateral = F1
So if it came to a choice between a $3500 2-way KW CS and a $12,000 Ohlins 3-way ... i would def go with the Ohlins due to the reputation and proven track wins and $3,000 per damper price tag

I think your point is well thought out and it's beginning to be proven true on the amateur racing circuit, where AST is making great dampers with some minor quality issues perform as good as the more expensive JRZ and Motons.

Last edited by mastek; 02-15-2012 at 07:02 AM.
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