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      02-06-2012, 07:01 PM   #111
Marsala125
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Is this possible to install using a seperate container to hold meth and not tap into WW resivoir? is is there no space for an extra bottle.
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      02-06-2012, 07:06 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
So, if I am understanding what you are saying, you are calling adding a meth injection system and tune that adds 30whp (compared to approx 15whp from a normal flash tune that doesnt involve putting an antiquated piggyback tuner) genius? And criticizing other tuners for not implementing this system? 15whp extra gain?

Let me tell you that there is no way I would run a piggyback and meth injection on a car for a 15whp gain. No chance of keeping warranty and a lot of work involved in removing the system to go in for warranty work if you needed to.

Other tuners havenet implemented it yet likely because the gains are so small for adding a complex system like meth injection to your car. This isnt a turbo car where meth injection adds 75-100whp and tq.

No need to bash other tuners for not implementing something that is complicated and in my opinion not cost effective at all.
I am endorsing anyone who is doing something unique and different rather than the same tunes everyone puts out with some a/f changes, ignition etc. Nothing "special" about the vishnu tune itself alone without the meth componenent.

You are missing one HUGE thing however, especially for people in cali or arizona or people out eas in summer. Keep in mind the stock car on 91 pump and even 93 does not even make the standard 414 crank hp due to not being able to fully advance the timing in the stock tune. Then you take it in the summer months and you are way down on power.

Unless you use race gas to prevent some of this-its hard to even make the stock max power.

So a tune using non-race gas in summer will maybe net you 10-15 over what you otherwise would be making which is a lot less than the rated hp due to timing retarding.

The meth addresses several things. First it provides the ability for the computer to not only maximize advance stock but even further advance timing due to the octane boost by meth. Tunes alone without race gas/meth cannot advance even beyond the stock limits let alone further or the computer will simply retard it.

Also the meth itself cools down the air so in hot months this really eliminates the hot weather effect so the added hp from the tune/meth can be added to the actual power the car should be making stock rather than starting at a lower power from timing retardation from heat.

As far as warranty-proceed being piggy back is the easiest to remove in two seconds. Also can remove the meth kid easily. So no issue with warranty unless you are too lazy to remove it. A flash tune is harder to take off unless you go with a self flash system tool than its great.

So maybe 30hp is not much to you but its probably more like 40-50hp in the summer months which even 30hp is HUGE for an NA engine.

I applaud people that do unique things-if this was so antiquated then why haven't others done it? People spend a lot more on exhausts and pulleys and removing cats which do not give you near the same power.

To each their own-I applaud shiv
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      02-07-2012, 07:15 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by kawchkjf View Post
How does this tune compare to other flash tunes?

Does it address the lack of low end tq when going catless??
I don't think there is a lack of low end torque when going catless. My car feels like it has significantly more low end torque, and it has no tune yet.

As for Vishnu, it has all been posted before. Take a look at the catless dyno with Vishnu meth tune in the post below and pay close attention to the before and after torque as low as the dyno goes.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...60&postcount=1
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      02-07-2012, 10:27 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by DylanMckay View Post
I am endorsing anyone who is doing something unique and different rather than the same tunes everyone puts out with some a/f changes, ignition etc. Nothing "special" about the vishnu tune itself alone without the meth componenent.

You are missing one HUGE thing however, especially for people in cali or arizona or people out eas in summer. Keep in mind the stock car on 91 pump and even 93 does not even make the standard 414 crank hp due to not being able to fully advance the timing in the stock tune. Then you take it in the summer months and you are way down on power.

Unless you use race gas to prevent some of this-its hard to even make the stock max power.

So a tune using non-race gas in summer will maybe net you 10-15 over what you otherwise would be making which is a lot less than the rated hp due to timing retarding.

The meth addresses several things. First it provides the ability for the computer to not only maximize advance stock but even further advance timing due to the octane boost by meth. Tunes alone without race gas/meth cannot advance even beyond the stock limits let alone further or the computer will simply retard it.

Also the meth itself cools down the air so in hot months this really eliminates the hot weather effect so the added hp from the tune/meth can be added to the actual power the car should be making stock rather than starting at a lower power from timing retardation from heat.

As far as warranty-proceed being piggy back is the easiest to remove in two seconds. Also can remove the meth kid easily. So no issue with warranty unless you are too lazy to remove it. A flash tune is harder to take off unless you go with a self flash system tool than its great.

So maybe 30hp is not much to you but its probably more like 40-50hp in the summer months which even 30hp is HUGE for an NA engine.

I applaud people that do unique things-if this was so antiquated then why haven't others done it? People spend a lot more on exhausts and pulleys and removing cats which do not give you near the same power.

To each their own-I applaud shiv
I am not missing the benefits of meth, I am well aware of how it works. I had a 335i and also a supercharged e46 m3 and considered meth injeciton in both cars, but never did it.

I understand the cooling benefits of spraying methanol, and I also understand that it is an octane booster of sorts.

I am curious how you think you know that the car cannot hit its timing targets using 93 octane in all conditions.

I am curious about this because the comments in this thread from Shiv indicated that more power was gained in tuning by increasing the timing. If the stock car cant hit its timing targets, and aftermarket tunes only advance timing to make power, how would a tuned car make even 1 more horsepower than stock?

Again, for what I believe is a minimal gain, I would not run a methanol injection system in this car. It may not be expensive to setup, but you still have to purchase a 50/50 meth mix, make sure that it stays full, etc....and deal with the inherent complications of a methanol injection system.

I also 100 percent believe that piggyback systems are antiquated and are not an ideal solution. No other car runs a piggyback based system when flash tunes are available except 335 owners. And even most of them are using flash tunes now.

The cycle almost always goes from piggyback to flash to open source tuning using a OBD-II based cable tuning software.

Anyway, if soemone is looking for a bit more power and wants to deal with running meth injeciton and a piggyback, more power to them.

However, I dont think its revolutionary, and I also think that other tuners didnt invest in it because the setup does offer relatively minimal gains and quite a bit of extra hardware.

Like you said, agree to disagree. Best of luck if you do decide to run this product.
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      02-07-2012, 02:09 PM   #115
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Even though we are using a piggy back on the car with the meth, the flash vs piggy really doesnt apply. You want to say a flash tune is better, up to you. A flash tune will not be able to do what the proceed is doing when meth flow starts and stops. If you dont like the idea of the Proceed as a tuning solution, fine, the proceed is the meth controller. The power should speak for itself. I had a flash on my car. As good as flashes may be and such, after a few hours of tuning on the dyno, it in no way made anywhere near the power and tq that the Vishnu system with meth made on my car. On my car, we used EAS's dyno, where they did a full bolt on ( intake, pulley, catless exhaust ) and a tune and got 400whp and my car hit that with just high flow secondary cats and magnaflow exhaust with the vishnu system. I am certain, if i do an intake, remove my stock cats and a pulley i would get more power. If you dont believe it, try it, i believe Vishnu has a money back guarantee.
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      02-07-2012, 02:30 PM   #116
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Quote:
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Even though we are using a piggy back on the car with the meth, the flash vs piggy really doesnt apply. You want to say a flash tune is better, up to you. A flash tune will not be able to do what the proceed is doing when meth flow starts and stops. If you dont like the idea of the Proceed as a tuning solution, fine, the proceed is the meth controller. The power should speak for itself. I had a flash on my car. As good as flashes may be and such, after a few hours of tuning on the dyno, it in no way made anywhere near the power and tq that the Vishnu system with meth made on my car. On my car, we used EAS's dyno, where they did a full bolt on ( intake, pulley, catless exhaust ) and a tune and got 400whp and my car hit that with just high flow secondary cats and magnaflow exhaust with the vishnu system. I am certain, if i do an intake, remove my stock cats and a pulley i would get more power. If you dont believe it, try it, i believe Vishnu has a money back guarantee.
You are potentially looking at +40whp with the deletion of primary CATs, an air filter and a pulley. That's puts you around 520 cHp on 91 octane! I'd say those are impressive gains.

Separately, from what I understand, the piggie tune allows for complete removal of the tune as opposed to a flash or dyno tuning. That to me says that the old technology is still relevant and beneficial.
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      02-07-2012, 02:32 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Marsala125 View Post
Is this possible to install using a seperate container to hold meth and not tap into WW resivoir? is is there no space for an extra bottle.
Sure. If desired, the pump and optional bottle can be mounted in the trunk like a conventional meth kit. No downside other than the extra work on routing meth line and a couple of wires under the car.

Shiv
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      02-07-2012, 02:33 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Sure. If desired, the pump and optional bottle can be mounted in the trunk like a conventional meth kit. No downside other than the extra work on routing meth line and a couple of wires under the car.

Shiv
Shiv,

Any other room in the engine bay where a separate container can be mounted?
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      02-07-2012, 02:44 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by DylanMckay View Post
I am endorsing anyone who is doing something unique and different rather than the same tunes everyone puts out with some a/f changes, ignition etc. Nothing "special" about the vishnu tune itself alone without the meth componenent.

You are missing one HUGE thing however, especially for people in cali or arizona or people out eas in summer. Keep in mind the stock car on 91 pump and even 93 does not even make the standard 414 crank hp due to not being able to fully advance the timing in the stock tune. Then you take it in the summer months and you are way down on power.

Unless you use race gas to prevent some of this-its hard to even make the stock max power.

So a tune using non-race gas in summer will maybe net you 10-15 over what you otherwise would be making which is a lot less than the rated hp due to timing retarding.

The meth addresses several things. First it provides the ability for the computer to not only maximize advance stock but even further advance timing due to the octane boost by meth. Tunes alone without race gas/meth cannot advance even beyond the stock limits let alone further or the computer will simply retard it.

Also the meth itself cools down the air so in hot months this really eliminates the hot weather effect so the added hp from the tune/meth can be added to the actual power the car should be making stock rather than starting at a lower power from timing retardation from heat.

As far as warranty-proceed being piggy back is the easiest to remove in two seconds. Also can remove the meth kid easily. So no issue with warranty unless you are too lazy to remove it. A flash tune is harder to take off unless you go with a self flash system tool than its great.

So maybe 30hp is not much to you but its probably more like 40-50hp in the summer months which even 30hp is HUGE for an NA engine.

I applaud people that do unique things-if this was so antiquated then why haven't others done it? People spend a lot more on exhausts and pulleys and removing cats which do not give you near the same power.


The on-road difference between a full bolt-on car running pump gas and a less modified car (say, just x-pipe) running a Procede/pwm meth kit is profound (well, as profound as comparing two NA cars can be). The meth car will only only pull harder but it will also be completely insensitive to heat soak/high ambient temps and fuel quality fluctuations. Things which EVERY m3 owner has noticed with their car. Even those that run on 93-94oct.

This means that a Procede/PWM meth car making 400whp will out perform a full bolt-on pump gas car making 400whp. And it will also have better post-shift torque (due to no knock-induced ignition regard) and get better fuel economy on the race track.

The truth is that there is only so much power you can squeeze out of an s65 given real world constraints. Namely air density/IAT and octane. And that is currently what every tuner has been bumping up against for the last several years. This is why there is no flash tune which is clearly superior to the other.

The only way to make the next evolutionary step is to remove these real world constraints. One option is to move to alaska, run 100oct all the time and run a custom flash that bumps ignition advance 4-5 deg. Other option is to stay where you are in run a Procede/PWM meth kit.

Cheers,
shiv

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      02-07-2012, 02:44 PM   #120
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Shiv,

Any other room in the engine bay where a separate container can be mounted?
Unfortunately no. It's a pretty tight fit in there
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      02-07-2012, 02:49 PM   #121
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You are potentially looking at +40whp with the deletion of primary CATs, an air filter and a pulley. That's puts you around 520 cHp on 91 octane! I'd say those are impressive gains.

Separately, from what I understand, the piggie tune allows for complete removal of the tune as opposed to a flash or dyno tuning. That to me says that the old technology is still relevant and beneficial.
Correct, the Procede doesn't modify the DME code in any way. In fact, the DME is completely ignorant of any tuning business. So physical removal leaves no evidence of tampering. Even if the black box data were to be analyzed by the powers that be.

As for "old technology" vs. "new technology", I think anyone suggesting that the Procede falls into the former camp may want to do some research. Flashes clearly have their place in the market. But like everything else, they do have their limitations.

Shiv
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      02-07-2012, 03:54 PM   #122
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Moving to Alaska would be a costly endeavor. I'm glad you talked me out of that and into the Meth option.
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      02-07-2012, 04:07 PM   #123
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Shiv - I asked earlier about how this unit differs from the OG Xede units for the Evos that were the rage back around 05.

Does the "Procede" still utilize the XEDE processor from ChipTorque?
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      02-07-2012, 05:20 PM   #124
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Shiv - I asked earlier about how this unit differs from the OG Xede units for the Evos that were the rage back around 05.

Does the "Procede" still utilize the XEDE processor from ChipTorque?
From my understanding the new rev3 unit is built from the ground up to Vishnus specifications.
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      02-07-2012, 05:32 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Correct, the Procede doesn't modify the DME code in any way. In fact, the DME is completely ignorant of any tuning business. So physical removal leaves no evidence of tampering. Even if the black box data were to be analyzed by the powers that be.

As for "old technology" vs. "new technology", I think anyone suggesting that the Procede falls into the former camp may want to do some research. Flashes clearly have their place in the market. But like everything else, they do have their limitations.

Shiv
Shiv,

Can you PM me ordering options and prices please?
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      02-07-2012, 05:46 PM   #126
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Shiv,

Can you PM me ordering options and prices please?
Just follow the link on the OP...
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      02-07-2012, 06:04 PM   #127
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From my understanding the new rev3 unit is built from the ground up to Vishnus specifications.
But still built by ChipTorque?

Perhaps Shiv can answer the question better...and additionally what makes the rev3 better than the old XEDE units.
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      02-07-2012, 06:25 PM   #128
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But still built by ChipTorque?

Perhaps Shiv can answer the question better...and additionally what makes the rev3 better than the old XEDE units.
Chiptorque's XEDE and our Procede are completely different animals. No common ancestry either. Different hardware, different software and different firmware. The Procede is manufactured right here in CA and is proprietary to us. The XEDE is a device manufactured by Chiptorque in Australia.

Below are pics comparing the two. On left, XEDE circa 2006 (the last time we distributed it-- not sure if it's been updated since then). And current Procede on right.




As you would expect from 6 years of BMW-specific development, the Procede is a bit more specialized than the XEDE. I can go into details such as CAN integration, on-board memory, more analog i/o, more digital i/o, more pins on connector, faster processor, more developed tuning software, etc,. But i'm not sure how fair it is to compare something new and BMW specific to something several years old which was intended for more general use.

Shiv

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      02-07-2012, 07:33 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
The Procede is manufactured right here in CA and is proprietary to us.

As you would expect from 6 years of BMW-specific development, the Procede is a bit more specialized than the XEDE. I can go into details such as CAN integration, on-board memory, more analog i/o, more digital i/o, more pins on connector, faster processor, more developed tuning software, etc,. But i'm not sure how fair it is to compare something new and BMW specific to something several years old which was intended for more general use.

Shiv
Thanks for the detailed response. Very interested in this platform, but also as an embedded software engineer well-aware of the complexities of doing this "the right way." The XEDE seemed pretty long in the tooth for such an application. Glad to hear it is a new platform.

After more research, I learned the Procede was at some point a custom repackaging of the Haltech Interceptor. Is that no longer the case?
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      02-07-2012, 07:54 PM   #130
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Thanks for the detailed response. Very interested in this platform, but also as an embedded software engineer well-aware of the complexities of doing this "the right way." The XEDE seemed pretty long in the tooth for such an application. Glad to hear it is a new platform.

After more research, I learned the Procede was at some point a custom repackaging of the Haltech Interceptor. Is that no longer the case?
The rev1 Procede was a repackaged Haltech Interceptor running proprietary firmware/software back in 2006. It proved to be a very good solution back then and served us well. But Rev2 and Rev3 Procedes are manufactured, designed and developed by us. After 6 years of development and customization, there is quite a bit of difference (visual and otherwise).

Shiv
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      02-13-2012, 02:28 AM   #131
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Car is running great. Weather in LA has been strange, 85 degrees one day and raining and 58degrees the next. My car feels the same, no change in the way it reacts and pulls. its GREAT.
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      02-13-2012, 10:25 AM   #132
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Hi Shiv,

Do you think that running the PWM Meth / Procede combo will allow the car 's fuel to be downgraded from say 94 octane to 91 octane with no downside?

From the answers in this thread, the answer would appear to be "Yes." The only potential issue I see would be if the engine was not able to fully advance timing under cruise conditions with the 91, since the meth wouldn't be flowing.

Or would it??

Can your PWM meth kit be programmed to inject under lighter load conditions if there is knock retard, or if the IATs get too high?
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