BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
rolloface
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-03-2012, 09:15 PM   #89
Singletrack
4th down; 4th quarter? Renegade.
 
Singletrack's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 SSII E92 M3; 12 AW X5d
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Posts: 3,813
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DylanMckay View Post
Pointless to install a piggy back over an existing tune. Does not make any sense. Dinans changes to vanos, timing and a/f may not work well with the targets set by proceed. Proceed per shiv makes no adjustments to vanos, therefore with dinans vanos adjustments, that may not play as nicely with proceeds a/f and timing targets for example.

Whats the point-flash to stock and then use the piggy oink oink
Do you have any details on the vanos changes that Dinan makes? Just curious.

Edit - maybe pm so we don't take this off topic?
Thanks!
Singletrack is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2012, 01:48 AM   #90
urBan_dK
First Lieutenant
 
urBan_dK's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E90 M3
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Mill Creek, WA

Posts: 361
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
Does the Procede utilize a fake crank angle signal to adjust timing like the Vishnu piggyback for the Evos? Haven't seen this Vishnu stuff since I was rocking an Evo 9 back in 2006...
urBan_dK is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2012, 01:28 PM   #91
DylanMckay
Banned
 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: armpit of the USA

Posts: 122
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
Do you have any details on the vanos changes that Dinan makes? Just curious.

Edit - maybe pm so we don't take this off topic?
Thanks!
I do not and this was from memory so do not quote me but the majority of tunes I have seen details on mentioned vanos adjustment. It might be on their site come to think of it. I remember thinking this is why vishnu stood out that they did not adjust vanos.


Shiv, how much more timing are you able to advance with the meth tune v. your regular non-meth tune? Also is the a/f changed for the meth tune? I am assuming you can run much leaner with meth as well?

I ask because looking at the dynos, it looks like you could be getting more from the meth with a tune. Considering your tune alone gives 15hp, meth alone with no tune gives you 10-15, you would (or I would) think a meth specific tune being able to almost be a similar tune you could do for 100 octane could yield a higher result than simply adding up the benefit of both above.

Is the methanol tune similar to a tune you would do on race gas?
DylanMckay is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2012, 01:38 PM   #92
DylanMckay
Banned
 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: armpit of the USA

Posts: 122
iTrader: (0)

Vishnu m3 v m5? Given the m3 is about 450 pounds less than the m5 which is probably good for 40hp relative bump for the m3 using its power to weight, what kind of whp would the m3 have to put down to match the overall speed of the m5?

My understanding they put down 420-430 whp in stock form.

My guess is an m3 putting down 390hp at the wheels, given its almost 500 pound weight advantage would put them pretty close. Any vishnu non supercharged m3's pull with any stock m5?S
DylanMckay is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2012, 05:44 PM   #93
pbonsalb
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3, 99 E36 M3 Turbo
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Concord, NH

Posts: 1,673
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DylanMckay View Post
I do not and this was from memory so do not quote me but the majority of tunes I have seen details on mentioned vanos adjustment. It might be on their site come to think of it. I remember thinking this is why vishnu stood out that they did not adjust vanos.


Shiv, how much more timing are you able to advance with the meth tune v. your regular non-meth tune? Also is the a/f changed for the meth tune? I am assuming you can run much leaner with meth as well?

I ask because looking at the dynos, it looks like you could be getting more from the meth with a tune. Considering your tune alone gives 15hp, meth alone with no tune gives you 10-15, you would (or I would) think a meth specific tune being able to almost be a similar tune you could do for 100 octane could yield a higher result than simply adding up the benefit of both above.

Is the methanol tune similar to a tune you would do on race gas?
Most of this is answered in Posts #1 and #18.
pbonsalb is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2012, 07:51 PM   #94
DylanMckay
Banned
 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: armpit of the USA

Posts: 122
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Most of this is answered in Posts #1 and #18.
I read everything and it does not answer so whats the point of you chiming in or why not just answer the question if you know it instead of taking time to tell me exactly which posts are not the ones containing the data I need?
DylanMckay is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2012, 09:16 PM   #95
pbonsalb
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3, 99 E36 M3 Turbo
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Concord, NH

Posts: 1,673
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DylanMckay View Post

Shiv, how much more timing are you able to advance with the meth tune v. your regular non-meth tune? Also is the a/f changed for the meth tune? I am assuming you can run much leaner with meth as well?

I ask because looking at the dynos, it looks like you could be getting more from the meth with a tune. Considering your tune alone gives 15hp, meth alone with no tune gives you 10-15, you would (or I would) think a meth specific tune being able to almost be a similar tune you could do for 100 octane could yield a higher result than simply adding up the benefit of both above.

Is the methanol tune similar to a tune you would do on race gas?
"Methanol is sprayed into the air filter using two custom-made 1.0mm nozzles. At 100%DC, the system is rated at 750-800cc/min. This finely atomized spray drops intake temperatures considerably and raises knock resistance well beyond that of what you would get when running straight 100+ octane race fuel. With no other changes in mapping, this intake temp drop and octane bump is worth up to 10whp and near perfect run-to-run consistency. Coupled with a PROcede-induced ignition advance bump, another 5-10whp can be realized in a naturally aspirated application."

"Without meth, most of the power gains afforded by any tuning solution (flash or otherwise) comes from running a 2-3 deg ignition advance in the upper midrange. This fills out the dip in power at ~7000rpm. I have yet to see any evidence of power gains as a result of VANOS tuning. And then again above 7000rpm, a bit more power can be extracted by enleaning AFR slightly (by just ~0.5 point).

And with meth spraying, additional power is passively gained by dropping inlet charge temps (higher air density) and by running another 2-3 deg of timing throughout most of the power band.

So to answer your question, ignition timing is the best contributor to power gains. Not surprising considering the gains that people see by just adding race gas and letting the DME run it's maximum timing set points. But at $7-8/gallon, that gets expensive/inconvenient after a while."

The way I read this, Vishnu's meth spray alone without Vishnu's tune is like running 100 octane race gas and worth 10 rwhp, mostly due to a 2-3 degree timing advance. Add Vishnu's tune and you will gain another 5-10 rwhp by advancing timing 2-3 degrees through out most of the power band with maybe a bit more power above 7000 rpm by leaning out the mixture by half a point.

You are welcome.

More spoon feeding for the busy boy with no time to look for himself but time to write a snappy response:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=vishnu

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=vishnu

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=vishnu

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=vishnu&page=4

Last edited by pbonsalb; 02-04-2012 at 09:27 PM.
pbonsalb is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2012, 10:58 PM   #96
JA///MES
PLZRACE
 
JA///MES's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico now fml...

Posts: 373
iTrader: (3)

Nobody knows why the sun comes up but it does and it seems to work out well for all of us! The Vishnu procede with meth works out well too! Let's not over think this!
__________________
2011 E90 JBM ///M3 DCT l Gintani Catless X-Pipe w/ Hybrid Exhaust l Vishnu Procede V5 with Meth l l RE Pulleys l Tecnocraft Envy l Arkym CF Diffuser l CF BMW Spoiler l Arkym CF Front Bumper l GB ///M Badge l GB Side Markers l GB Kidney Grills l PSS 275/255/35/19s l VMR VB3s in Hyper Black l CF Steering Wheel Trim l ///M Pedals l Black Tow Hooks l Eibach Springs l GP Thunder Bulbs l IND Key Hole Cover l BMW PSW l Verstrabe Paddles
JA///MES is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2012, 11:22 PM   #97
DylanMckay
Banned
 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: armpit of the USA

Posts: 122
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
"Methanol is sprayed into the air filter using two custom-made 1.0mm nozzles. At 100%DC, the system is rated at 750-800cc/min. This finely atomized spray drops intake temperatures considerably and raises knock resistance well beyond that of what you would get when running straight 100+ octane race fuel. With no other changes in mapping, this intake temp drop and octane bump is worth up to 10whp and near perfect run-to-run consistency. Coupled with a PROcede-induced ignition advance bump, another 5-10whp can be realized in a naturally aspirated application."

"Without meth, most of the power gains afforded by any tuning solution (flash or otherwise) comes from running a 2-3 deg ignition advance in the upper midrange. This fills out the dip in power at ~7000rpm. I have yet to see any evidence of power gains as a result of VANOS tuning. And then again above 7000rpm, a bit more power can be extracted by enleaning AFR slightly (by just ~0.5 point).

And with meth spraying, additional power is passively gained by dropping inlet charge temps (higher air density) and by running another 2-3 deg of timing throughout most of the power band.

So to answer your question, ignition timing is the best contributor to power gains. Not surprising considering the gains that people see by just adding race gas and letting the DME run it's maximum timing set points. But at $7-8/gallon, that gets expensive/inconvenient after a while."

The way I read this, Vishnu's meth spray alone without Vishnu's tune is like running 100 octane race gas and worth 10 rwhp, mostly due to a 2-3 degree timing advance. Add Vishnu's tune and you will gain another 5-10 rwhp by advancing timing 2-3 degrees through out most of the power band with maybe a bit more power above 7000 rpm by leaning out the mixture by half a point.

You are welcome.

More spoon feeding for the busy boy with no time to look for himself but time to write a snappy response:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=vishnu

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=vishnu

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=vishnu

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=vishnu&page=4
Thanks man! Sorry for being short. I should have re-phrased my post. I had read that info but I guess it was not addressing my question which is my own confusion. Ill put it like this.

-vishnu tune alone with 91 octane-advanced 2-3 for lets say 10whp

My question about this is if the plain stock tune already cannot use its fully advanced timing with 91/93 octane then how does adding 2-3 more degrees help if already can't use its stock advance timing limits?

-Meth by itself good for 10 whp due to cooling effects and allowing the stock tune to fully advance its timing compared to 91/93. This part makes sense.

The last question is if you use the meth-than is it like you say a 6 degree plus advancedment possible over the maximum stock tune advance? 6 degrees more than the typical timing set by stock tune for 91/93 octane?

I think I am just slow but anyway thanks for the posts!
DylanMckay is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2012, 10:21 AM   #98
aresh
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2006 550i
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY

Posts: 370
iTrader: (1)

Can we install the meth with out the proceed tune? I have the ess tune and was thinking of coupling it with the meth kit but not adding the proceed. Is this possible or do we need to purchase both?
Also I'm a bit confused, the dyno show cars with mods such as Catless that alone adds ~ 30 are the results 30 hp on top of the mods or is 30 in total over stock platform power?
aresh is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2012, 12:09 PM   #99
Beemw335
Colonel
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: My car is my home

Posts: 2,016
iTrader: (2)

^^You need a procede to run pwm meth.
The graphs are pretty easy to understand..it shows baseline and power after procede and pwm, the other mods were on the car on the baseline and after so its a hain on top of that.
Beemw335 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2012, 12:48 PM   #100
Novus
New Member
 
Novus's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Austin, TX

Posts: 17
iTrader: (0)

The Procede controls the meth valves and controls the engine settings needed to get the maximum gains from the meth. So, you need both. In previous posts Shiv has recommended but not required that any flash tunes be removed. It depend on how aggressive the tune is. When I spoke to him he felt the Dinan tune was conservative enough to be ok, but wanted to do some data logging after installation to make adjustments. The people that have had it installed so far have removed their flash tunes.

The gains posted so far have been relative to the mods already on those cars. I don't think anyone has posted dynos from a stock car, but I would expect similar gains.
__________________
On Order: 2014 AH3 M-Sport EBII
Retired: 2010 E92 M3 LeMans Blue on Bamboo
Novus is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2012, 06:27 PM   #101
M3MamBo
Private First Class
 
Drives: '11 E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Jersey City, NJ

Posts: 100
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novus
The Procede controls the meth valves and controls the engine settings needed to get the maximum gains from the meth. So, you need both. In previous posts Shiv has recommended but not required that any flash tunes be removed. It depend on how aggressive the tune is. When I spoke to him he felt the Dinan tune was conservative enough to be ok, but wanted to do some data logging after installation to make adjustments. The people that have had it installed so far have removed their flash tunes.

The gains posted so far have been relative to the mods already on those cars. I don't think anyone has posted dynos from a stock car, but I would expect similar gains.
Yes, I really would like Shiv to chime in regarding the Dinan tune. I do appreciate everyone else's facts or opinions, I just need to hear from Shiv once he does his research as far as Dinan.
M3MamBo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2012, 08:09 PM   #102
DylanMckay
Banned
 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: armpit of the USA

Posts: 122
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3MamBo View Post
Yes, I really would like Shiv to chime in regarding the Dinan tune. I do appreciate everyone else's facts or opinions, I just need to hear from Shiv once he does his research as far as Dinan.
what is the big deal? Just flash back to your stock tune. WHy mess with two different companies tunes and mix them? Makes no sense.

Shiv-is the same gains expected to be had from a stock m3 with cats (oem cats)? Still looking at about a 30hp gain with full meth/proceed?

Leave it to shiv to come into the scene like 4 years after all the other tuners have been at it and and provide a product that is so far above and beyond what others have not been able to do in 4 years! Every other tuner came up with a tune but nothing making it stand out. Really this is why some business flourish and others get by. creativity and genius seem to be shivs thing. He has dominated the n54 tuning world and now pulls out the best product for the m3 in a couple months of toying around! Cant wait. Nobody else is offering anything close to a 40hp crank gain from a bolt on keeping your cats. Awesome man!
DylanMckay is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2012, 09:08 PM   #103
Novus
New Member
 
Novus's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Austin, TX

Posts: 17
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3MamBo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novus
The Procede controls the meth valves and controls the engine settings needed to get the maximum gains from the meth. So, you need both. In previous posts Shiv has recommended but not required that any flash tunes be removed. It depend on how aggressive the tune is. When I spoke to him he felt the Dinan tune was conservative enough to be ok, but wanted to do some data logging after installation to make adjustments. The people that have had it installed so far have removed their flash tunes.

The gains posted so far have been relative to the mods already on those cars. I don't think anyone has posted dynos from a stock car, but I would expect similar gains.
Yes, I really would like Shiv to chime in regarding the Dinan tune. I do appreciate everyone else's facts or opinions, I just need to hear from Shiv once he does his research as far as Dinan.
Why wait? Send them an email. Robert or Shiv are quick to respond.
__________________
On Order: 2014 AH3 M-Sport EBII
Retired: 2010 E92 M3 LeMans Blue on Bamboo
Novus is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2012, 09:24 PM   #104
aresh
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2006 550i
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY

Posts: 370
iTrader: (1)

So if I'm getting this right. FBO PLUS meth will yield close to 500hp?
aresh is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2012, 09:27 PM   #105
aresh
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2006 550i
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY

Posts: 370
iTrader: (1)

My logic is that FBO WITH TUNE gets you close to 450-460 hp so meth added the car should be making close to 500 hp.
aresh is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2012, 11:43 PM   #106
M3MamBo
Private First Class
 
Drives: '11 E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Jersey City, NJ

Posts: 100
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DylanMckay
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3MamBo View Post
Yes, I really would like Shiv to chime in regarding the Dinan tune. I do appreciate everyone else's facts or opinions, I just need to hear from Shiv once he does his research as far as Dinan.
what is the big deal? Just flash back to your stock tune. WHy mess with two different companies tunes and mix them? Makes no sense.

Shiv-is the same gains expected to be had from a stock m3 with cats (oem cats)? Still looking at about a 30hp gain with full meth/proceed?

Leave it to shiv to come into the scene like 4 years after all the other tuners have been at it and and provide a product that is so far above and beyond what others have not been able to do in 4 years! Every other tuner came up with a tune but nothing making it stand out. Really this is why some business flourish and others get by. creativity and genius seem to be shivs thing. He has dominated the n54 tuning world and now pulls out the best product for the m3 in a couple months of toying around! Cant wait. Nobody else is offering anything close to a 40hp crank gain from a bolt on keeping your cats. Awesome man!
Ok cool.. Now how do I flash to stock tune? I mean I can't just walk into the dealer and say erase the tune and for them not to think I'm going to tune it with something else and void my warranty when they know I need a tune for the catless xpipe. my dealer installed my Dinan tune and xpipe
M3MamBo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-06-2012, 12:58 AM   #107
kawchkjf
Private
 
Drives: 2009 bmw m3
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: canada

Posts: 71
iTrader: (0)

How does this tune compare to other flash tunes?

Does it address the lack of low end tq when going catless??
kawchkjf is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-06-2012, 10:27 AM   #108
DylanMckay
Banned
 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: armpit of the USA

Posts: 122
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3MamBo View Post
Ok cool.. Now how do I flash to stock tune? I mean I can't just walk into the dealer and say erase the tune and for them not to think I'm going to tune it with something else and void my warranty when they know I need a tune for the catless xpipe. my dealer installed my Dinan tune and xpipe
HAHA sorry dude-good call! I was still thinking dinan was all dealer sold stuff so was thinking you could just say you prefer your old tune and see if they will flash it for you. However I realized dinan has seperated from dealers.

That is the problem with a flash.

You could just tell the dealer you really do not like the tune and want the most uptodate oem software. They might charge you however. The good thing about vishnu is its not a "tune" but rather a piggy back that basically alters signals from the stock tune. Therefore you can go back to stock anytime by just disabling the piggy box
DylanMckay is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-06-2012, 11:11 AM   #109
KennyPowers
Brigadier General
 
Drives: .....
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gulf Coast

Posts: 4,284
iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DylanMckay View Post
Leave it to shiv to come into the scene like 4 years after all the other tuners have been at it and and provide a product that is so far above and beyond what others have not been able to do in 4 years! Every other tuner came up with a tune but nothing making it stand out. Really this is why some business flourish and others get by. creativity and genius seem to be shivs thing. He has dominated the n54 tuning world and now pulls out the best product for the m3 in a couple months of toying around! Cant wait. Nobody else is offering anything close to a 40hp crank gain from a bolt on keeping your cats. Awesome man!
So, if I am understanding what you are saying, you are calling adding a meth injection system and tune that adds 30whp (compared to approx 15whp from a normal flash tune that doesnt involve putting an antiquated piggyback tuner) genius? And criticizing other tuners for not implementing this system? 15whp extra gain?

Let me tell you that there is no way I would run a piggyback and meth injection on a car for a 15whp gain. No chance of keeping warranty and a lot of work involved in removing the system to go in for warranty work if you needed to.

Other tuners havenet implemented it yet likely because the gains are so small for adding a complex system like meth injection to your car. This isnt a turbo car where meth injection adds 75-100whp and tq.

No need to bash other tuners for not implementing something that is complicated and in my opinion not cost effective at all.
__________________
PCD 10/10 on 2015 M3 : MW / SB Full Leather / HK audio / Adaptive Suspension / Silver 19s / 6MT / CF Roof
KennyPowers is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-06-2012, 05:35 PM   #110
Novus
New Member
 
Novus's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Austin, TX

Posts: 17
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
So, if I am understanding what you are saying, you are calling adding a meth injection system and tune that adds 30whp (compared to approx 15whp from a normal flash tune that doesnt involve putting an antiquated piggyback tuner) genius? And criticizing other tuners for not implementing this system? 15whp extra gain?

Let me tell you that there is no way I would run a piggyback and meth injection on a car for a 15whp gain. No chance of keeping warranty and a lot of work involved in removing the system to go in for warranty work if you needed to.

Other tuners havenet implemented it yet likely because the gains are so small for adding a complex system like meth injection to your car. This isnt a turbo car where meth injection adds 75-100whp and tq.

No need to bash other tuners for not implementing something that is complicated and in my opinion not cost effective at all.
So, he got a little overexcited.

Still, it's a bit harsh to say the system is antiquated, and over complicated.

As I understand it there are three options for engine management (flash, piggyback, standalone) and they all have their pros and cons. To say that one is better than another is if not wrong then grossly superficial. Each has to be evaluated based on the application and the intended goals. Blanket statements are not helpful or productive.

The complexity of the Procede Meth Kit, and it's installation and maintenance can be debated, but Shiv and Robert have provided lots of information on this forum and their website to at least make it as easy as possible to install and maintain the system.

To say it isn't cost effective is a misrepresentation. The Procede Meth Kit is one of the cheapest dollar per horsepower options for the S65. It is also one of the last and newest of a very short list of NA modifications that doesn't involve modifying the displacement of the engine. Talk about something being not very cost effective. (No offense to the stroker guys out there. I'm just jealous. )

Vishnu Tuning has also done it's best to keep us informed of the risks to the warranty and what can be done to mitigate those risks. If you think other modifications discussed in this sub-forum do not pose some risk to your warranty and/or you are overly concerned about warranty then I think you are in the wrong sub-forum.
__________________
On Order: 2014 AH3 M-Sport EBII
Retired: 2010 E92 M3 LeMans Blue on Bamboo
Novus is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:38 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST