How to get air out of the ABS Pump?

persian54 · 01-29-2012, 08:15 PM

There's a possibility that air may have gotten trapped into my ABS pump

If this is the case, other than going to the dealer and having them fix it, what's the best solution?

I found out that when my StopTech SS lines were originally installed a couple months ago, they weren't tight enough. Also, there were leaks around the line areas... and when the brakes were bleed, there was a lot of air...
I originally thought i had crappy pedal feel cause I boiled my Motul 600, but it seems that wasn't the only issue (air being the main one). Before the BBK, I had to push my pedal far down, almost to the floor, to even stop at parking lot speeds. When I pressed hard, the car stopped no problem...I just had to push the pedal down to the floor..

I had a StopTech Trophy BBK installed very recently.
When I brake, the car stops. But the pedal doesn't feel firm (or as firm as I'd like it). Much better than before the BBK though... that's for sure.
I need to push it in more than I want to...
my grandma's altima has a more responsible pedal! (car is only 2months old, but it's an altima lol)

No I have no bed the pads in, I will do that today.

But both the tech (not the same person that did a bad SS Line install months ago) that installed the BBK and a friend whom I get advice from (he's been involved with track cars longer than I've been allowed to drive) both mentioned the possibility of air in the ABS pump (or worse, a damaged ABS system), so thus this is one area I would like to address.

Anyway to get this addressed other than the dealer?
As I've heard you need to use the BMW computer to pressurize the line and such...

Romeo21779 · 01-31-2012, 03:09 PM

Bed in your pads first. I had abysmal pedal feel until the brakes were probably bedded.

EDIT

Also, make sure the brakes were bled in the right order. I'm not sure what the order is on the M3 but, on my RSX, it's some strange order that I have to always the check the shop manual for. Mainly with the brakes being connected diagonally, so that if one of the lines break, the opposite corners will still work.

Ilia@IND · 01-31-2012, 03:23 PM

Properly bedded pads will make a difference in feel, for sure.

Many shops will use a pressure bleeder to bleed through the brake system quickly, but I am not sold on this being the best option.

You should manually bleed your brakes-

Pump the brake pedal several times (you should feel pedal pressure increase)

Hold the brake pedal down firmly.

While holding the pedal, have a friend open the bleed screw, hold it open for a second, and close it again. Do not let the pedal go up while your friend is doing this, as this will re-introduce air into the system.

Go around the car and continue the bleeding process, starting with the corner that is furthest from the driver first. So on a left hand drive M3, you would do the passenger (right) rear corner first, then the left rear, then the right front, and finally the left front.

I like to go through each bleed screw three times or more, before moving on to the next corner of the car. I also like to go around the whole car several times.

Don't forget to refill the brake fluid reservoir as you bleed the brakes! If the level goes down below minimum you may once again introduce air into the system.

If the procedure is followed correctly, a manually bled brake system will have excellent performance and no air in the system.

Malek@MRF · 01-31-2012, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

Properly bedded pads will make a difference in feel, for sure.

Many shops will use a pressure bleeder to bleed through the brake system quickly, but I am not sold on this being the best option.

You should manually bleed your brakes-

Pump the brake pedal several times (you should feel pedal pressure increase)

Hold the brake pedal down firmly.

While holding the pedal, have a friend open the bleed screw, hold it open for a second, and close it again. Do not let the pedal go up while your friend is doing this, as this will re-introduce air into the system.

Go around the car and continue the bleeding process, starting with the corner that is furthest from the driver first. So on a left hand drive M3, you would do the passenger (right) rear corner first, then the left rear, then the right front, and finally the left front.

I like to go through each bleed screw three times or more, before moving on to the next corner of the car. I also like to go around the whole car several times.

Don't forget to refill the brake fluid reservoir as you bleed the brakes! If the level goes down below minimum you may once again introduce air into the system.

If the procedure is followed correctly, a manually bled brake system will have excellent performance and no air in the system.

Ilia, that is exactly how I bled his brakes for him this past weekend for his Stoptech Trophy kit.

The previous installer did not tighten all the lines down, mainly the passenger front, and had brake fluid sprayed all through out the wheel well and line.

I bled each nipple on each caliper 7 times. I do believe that his ABS pump may be in trouble due to the amount of air that was introduced previously.

persian54 · 01-31-2012, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

Ilia, that is exactly how I bled his brakes for him this past weekend for his Stoptech Trophy kit.

The previous installer did not tighten all the lines down, mainly the passenger front, and had brake fluid sprayed all through out the wheel well and line.

Yeah, this is why I raised this question regarding the ABS Pump as you mentioned air could have gotten into it.

Here are 2 iPhone pics from this weekend:

Though I'm sure you have better pictures as the iPhone's camera is not the best.

drew313 · 01-31-2012, 05:24 PM

Probably not the cause of your brake pedal feel, but your calipers are installed on the wrong sides. The bleed nipple should point up.

Ilia@IND · 01-31-2012, 05:49 PM

The bleed screws facing down would contribute to poor pedal feel. The bleed point should be the upper most point on the caliper, not the lowest.

wdd1040 · 01-31-2012, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew313

Probably not the cause of your brake pedal feel, but your calipers are installed on the wrong sides. The bleed nipple should point up.

The could very possibly prevent all the air from getting bled out.

wwjd15 · 01-31-2012, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by persian54

Yeah, this is why I raised this question regarding the ABS Pump as you mentioned air could have gotten into it.

Here are 2 iPhone pics from this weekend:

Though I'm sure you have better pictures as the iPhone's camera is not the best.

Sean, can you get a better pic of the brakes with the car together? They look like installed upside down to me???? How could you not getting air when you put your calipers like that??

persian54 · 01-31-2012, 06:10 PM

Didn't mean for this thread to turn into bleeder screw vs abs pump

But good to know.....

M3PO · 01-31-2012, 06:34 PM

Wow! The calipers are on the wrong side of the car; they are upside down! The air will rise to the top of the caliper, and with the bleeder screw on the bottom, it will never be bled out. Your calipers are probably FULL of air.

I wouldn't drive it until that's corrected. When you drive it after this is fixed, make sure you don't hit your face on the steering wheel the first time you press the brakes!

JAJ · 01-31-2012, 06:54 PM

And this, gentlemen, is why I do my own brake and suspension work.

persian54 · 01-31-2012, 06:56 PM

This was how one StopTech rep advised on the install.

Will be corrected Thursday afternoon-ish

Green-Eggs · 01-31-2012, 06:57 PM

:

persian54 · 01-31-2012, 07:22 PM

now now let's get back on topic.. where can I go, either than the dealer, if I needed my ABS system etc flushed?

EndlessE88 · 01-31-2012, 08:02 PM

Did you take your car to a High School Auto Shop?

Amazing.

Elementary · 01-31-2012, 08:13 PM

lololol.... who ever installed this kit should not be working on cars. The person who rebled your brakes should have noticed that instantly. You should stop dealing with incompetent shops, find yourself a shop that knows what they're doing.

A bad situation for you but I find it hilarious that the calipers are installed the wrong way, total noob move.

EndlessE88 · 01-31-2012, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elementary

lololol.... who ever installed this kit should not be working on cars. The person who rebled your brakes should have noticed that instantly. You should stop dealing with incompetent shops, find yourself a shop that knows what they're doing.

A bad situation for you but I find it hilarious that the calipers are installed the wrong way, total noob move.

I agree!

Are these the two so-called "techs" that worked on your car?

M3SQRD · 01-31-2012, 08:46 PM

Once your calipers are installed correctly, like others have stated, you'll get a much improved bleed and any air trapped in the calipers will be removed. This by itself may address your soft pedal and/or poor brake performance/feel.

If you think air is still trapped in the ABS pump then the only way I know how to remove air from the pump is at the dealer - need to cycle the pump while bleeding the system.

tom @ eas · 01-31-2012, 09:00 PM

ABS pump can be cycled with Autologic.

Once the calipers are mounted and bled, everything should be back in place.

Elementary · 01-31-2012, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EndlessE88

I agree!

Are these the two so-called "techs" that worked on your car?

I lol'd.... They're engineers too!

Peter Griffin · 02-01-2012, 01:58 AM

After reading this thread, I think I know which local shop not to take it to.

01-29-2012, 08:15 PM	#1
persian54 Lieutenant General Drives: MW E93 M3/E89 Z4 35i Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The Valley, SoCal Posts: 15,351 iTrader: (258)	How to get air out of the ABS Pump? There's a possibility that air may have gotten trapped into my ABS pump If this is the case, other than going to the dealer and having them fix it, what's the best solution? I found out that when my StopTech SS lines were originally installed a couple months ago, they weren't tight enough. Also, there were leaks around the line areas... and when the brakes were bleed, there was a lot of air... I originally thought i had crappy pedal feel cause I boiled my Motul 600, but it seems that wasn't the only issue (air being the main one). Before the BBK, I had to push my pedal far down, almost to the floor, to even stop at parking lot speeds. When I pressed hard, the car stopped no problem...I just had to push the pedal down to the floor.. I had a StopTech Trophy BBK installed very recently. When I brake, the car stops. But the pedal doesn't feel firm (or as firm as I'd like it). Much better than before the BBK though... that's for sure. I need to push it in more than I want to... my grandma's altima has a more responsible pedal! (car is only 2months old, but it's an altima lol) No I have no bed the pads in, I will do that today. But both the tech (not the same person that did a bad SS Line install months ago) that installed the BBK and a friend whom I get advice from (he's been involved with track cars longer than I've been allowed to drive) both mentioned the possibility of air in the ABS pump (or worse, a damaged ABS system), so thus this is one area I would like to address. Anyway to get this addressed other than the dealer? As I've heard you need to use the BMW computer to pressurize the line and such... __________________ Next track day: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651089 Sorry I'm just someone who comes on here to fill a void..I dont have the $ to own a BMW. This is a nice E93:http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=434032
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01-31-2012, 03:23 PM	#3
Ilia@IND BimmerPost Supporting Vendor Drives: 08 Alpine M3 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,930 iTrader: (3)	Properly bedded pads will make a difference in feel, for sure. Many shops will use a pressure bleeder to bleed through the brake system quickly, but I am not sold on this being the best option. You should manually bleed your brakes- Pump the brake pedal several times (you should feel pedal pressure increase) Hold the brake pedal down firmly. While holding the pedal, have a friend open the bleed screw, hold it open for a second, and close it again. Do not let the pedal go up while your friend is doing this, as this will re-introduce air into the system. Go around the car and continue the bleeding process, starting with the corner that is furthest from the driver first. So on a left hand drive M3, you would do the passenger (right) rear corner first, then the left rear, then the right front, and finally the left front. I like to go through each bleed screw three times or more, before moving on to the next corner of the car. I also like to go around the whole car several times. Don't forget to refill the brake fluid reservoir as you bleed the brakes! If the level goes down below minimum you may once again introduce air into the system. If the procedure is followed correctly, a manually bled brake system will have excellent performance and no air in the system. __________________

01-31-2012, 05:49 PM	#7
Ilia@IND BimmerPost Supporting Vendor Drives: 08 Alpine M3 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,930 iTrader: (3)	The bleed screws facing down would contribute to poor pedal feel. The bleed point should be the upper most point on the caliper, not the lowest. __________________

01-31-2012, 06:10 PM	#10
persian54 Lieutenant General Drives: MW E93 M3/E89 Z4 35i Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The Valley, SoCal Posts: 15,351 iTrader: (258)	Didn't mean for this thread to turn into bleeder screw vs abs pump But good to know..... __________________ Next track day: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651089 Sorry I'm just someone who comes on here to fill a void..I dont have the $ to own a BMW. This is a nice E93:http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=434032

01-31-2012, 06:56 PM	#13
persian54 Lieutenant General Drives: MW E93 M3/E89 Z4 35i Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The Valley, SoCal Posts: 15,351 iTrader: (258)	This was how one StopTech rep advised on the install. Will be corrected Thursday afternoon-ish __________________ Next track day: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651089 Sorry I'm just someone who comes on here to fill a void..I dont have the $ to own a BMW. This is a nice E93:http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=434032

01-31-2012, 03:09 PM	#2
Romeo21779 New Member Drives: Acura RSX Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: MI Posts: 8 iTrader: (0)	Bed in your pads first. I had abysmal pedal feel until the brakes were probably bedded. EDIT Also, make sure the brakes were bled in the right order. I'm not sure what the order is on the M3 but, on my RSX, it's some strange order that I have to always the check the shop manual for. Mainly with the brakes being connected diagonally, so that if one of the lines break, the opposite corners will still work.

01-31-2012, 05:24 PM	#6
drew313 Enlisted Member Drives: 2012 E92 M3 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Irvine, CA Posts: 33 iTrader: (0) Garage List 2012 BMW E92 M3 [0.00] 2009 Honda S2000 [0.00]	Probably not the cause of your brake pedal feel, but your calipers are installed on the wrong sides. The bleed nipple should point up.

01-31-2012, 06:34 PM	#11
M3PO Colonel Drives: '08 IB E92 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: OC Posts: 2,179 iTrader: (6)	Wow! The calipers are on the wrong side of the car; they are upside down! The air will rise to the top of the caliper, and with the bleeder screw on the bottom, it will never be bled out. Your calipers are probably FULL of air. I wouldn't drive it until that's corrected. When you drive it after this is fixed, make sure you don't hit your face on the steering wheel the first time you press the brakes!

01-31-2012, 06:54 PM	#12
JAJ Captain Drives: 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 896 iTrader: (4)	And this, gentlemen, is why I do my own brake and suspension work.

01-31-2012, 06:57 PM	#14
Green-Eggs Captain Drives: BMW Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 806 iTrader: (3)	: : __________________

01-31-2012, 07:22 PM	#15
persian54 Lieutenant General Drives: MW E93 M3/E89 Z4 35i Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The Valley, SoCal Posts: 15,351 iTrader: (258)	now now let's get back on topic.. where can I go, either than the dealer, if I needed my ABS system etc flushed? __________________ Next track day: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651089 Sorry I'm just someone who comes on here to fill a void..I dont have the $ to own a BMW. This is a nice E93:http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=434032

01-31-2012, 08:02 PM	#16
EndlessE88 Private First Class Drives: BMW Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 142 iTrader: (1)	Did you take your car to a High School Auto Shop? Amazing.

01-31-2012, 08:13 PM	#17
Elementary If you ain't first, you're last! Drives: M Drei Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: California Posts: 112 iTrader: (0)	lololol.... who ever installed this kit should not be working on cars. The person who rebled your brakes should have noticed that instantly. You should stop dealing with incompetent shops, find yourself a shop that knows what they're doing. A bad situation for you but I find it hilarious that the calipers are installed the wrong way, total noob move.

01-31-2012, 08:46 PM	#19
M3SQRD Colonel Drives: E92 M3s, R56 Cooper S Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: EC Posts: 2,347 iTrader: (2)	Once your calipers are installed correctly, like others have stated, you'll get a much improved bleed and any air trapped in the calipers will be removed. This by itself may address your soft pedal and/or poor brake performance/feel. If you think air is still trapped in the ABS pump then the only way I know how to remove air from the pump is at the dealer - need to cycle the pump while bleeding the system.

01-31-2012, 09:00 PM	#20
tom @ eas BimmerPost Supporting Vendor Drives: BMW Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 8,853 iTrader: (12) Garage List 2008 ESS VT2-525 Z4MC [0.00] 2011 ESS VT2-625 M3 [0.00]	ABS pump can be cycled with Autologic. Once the calipers are mounted and bled, everything should be back in place. __________________ Tom G. \| european auto source (eas) email: tom@europeanautosource.com web: www.europeanautosource.com tel 866.669.0705 \| ca: 714.369.8524 x22 \| fax: 714.908.1796 Blog \| Facebook \| YouTube \| Flickr \| Twitter

02-01-2012, 01:58 AM	#22
Peter Griffin Private Drives: E90 M3 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Tustin, CA Posts: 69 iTrader: (0)	After reading this thread, I think I know which local shop not to take it to.

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