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      01-23-2012, 11:58 AM   #1
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Will BMW M up?

With other companies having super cars in their line up.. such as the Mercedes SLS AMG, Audi R8 and even the Lexus LFA. Will the BMW M division come up with something?
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      01-23-2012, 12:31 PM   #2
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This has been beaten to death.

No. BMW does not build super cars, it doesn't fit with their current business model.

Plus, BMW doesn't really have anything to prove, it is pretty much accepted that BMW build the best sport sedans. The companies that go outside of their core to build a supercar are trying to prove that they can make a great car in spite of their image.
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      01-23-2012, 12:40 PM   #3
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repost although I don't agree with misterskimask
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      01-23-2012, 12:44 PM   #4
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sorry for the repost..
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      01-23-2012, 01:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q4P View Post
repost although I don't agree with misterskimask
Just curious, what are your thoughts?
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      01-23-2012, 01:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask View Post
This has been beaten to death.

No. BMW does not build super cars, it doesn't fit with their current business model.

Agreed with that portion... BMW's current direction and image appears to be this efficient dynamics crap. At simply a business and efficiency standpoint it certainly makes sense, from an automotive enthusiast standpoint; it's appalling. Their current definition of a super car is the BMW I8 which pretty much tells it all right there. In the end; a lot of bean counters decided that it's best to sell as much as possible and become the next GM by providing hundreds of different models to try and fit every single consumer segment possible to maximize sales. A super car does not do much for sales or profits and they are staying away... is it sad? Beyond sad...

Plus, BMW doesn't really have anything to prove, it is pretty much accepted that BMW build the best sport sedans. The companies that go outside of their core to build a supercar are trying to prove that they can make a great car in spite of their image.
Disagree with almost everything there... Audi needed to make an R8 to prove a point?, Mercedes needed the SLS to prove a point after having tons of awesome AMG models?, Porsche needed to build a Carrera GT to prove a point? The only case where I can see this being true is Lexus which was always branded as a softer more mature car but that company certainly proved itself by creating a super car that ran a 7:14 at the 'ring. The point is; a company that has proper management and a proper philosophy doesn't care and can still make a lot of money to offset the production of a super car, BMW no longer feels they need to do that. I don't think anyone is saying they need to do that but they certainly could and should as almost every single competitor of theirs has.

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      01-23-2012, 01:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q4P View Post
Disagree with almost everything there... Audi needed to make an R8 to prove a point?, Mercedes needed the SLS to prove a point after having tons of awesome AMG models?, Porsche needed to build a Carrera GT to prove a point? The only case where I can see this being true is Lexus which was always branded as a softer more mature car but that company certainly proved itself by creating a super car that ran a 7:14 at the 'ring. The point is; a company that has proper management and a proper philosophy doesn't care and can still make a lot of money to offset the production of a super car, BMW no longer feels they need to do that. I don't think anyone is saying they need to do that but they certainly could and should as almost every single competitor of theirs has.

Audi, yes. They make great cars, but in the handling department they didn't get it right until their current generation (always plowing through corners etc). Even if they put up the same numbers the M cars were always more 'fun'

MB, absolutely. There is no question that they build fantastic engines, but the super sedans that they build have numb steering and feel generally disconnected (I have not driven the latest C-amg to be fair). It seems like MB lost track of who there are for a little while, (Maybach, SLR)

Porsche, the C-GT was not without precedent, and IMO not a huge departure (meaning, Porsche makes performance cars, they also have a history of releasing 'special' cars from time to time, 959, RS cars etc).
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      01-23-2012, 01:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask View Post
Audi, yes. They make great cars, but in the handling department they didn't get it right until their current generation (always plowing through corners etc). Even if they put up the same numbers the M cars were always more 'fun'

MB, absolutely. There is no question that they build fantastic engines, but the super sedans that they build have numb steering and feel generally disconnected (I have not driven the latest C-amg to be fair). It seems like MB lost track of who there are for a little while, (Maybach, SLR)

Porsche, the C-GT was not without precedent, and IMO not a huge departure (meaning, Porsche makes performance cars, they also have a history of releasing 'special' cars from time to time, 959, RS cars etc).
so what can we conclude from this argument? When considering the full resources of a company, all of BMWs competitors (now even Lexus) can make a better car than they can? BMW is complacent to the point that they feel they don't need to make one in response and I don't think anyone can get that complacent, Nissan pulled off something for $85K out of nowhere that beats most supercars... that's a company that I would be watching out for because they don't care.
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      01-23-2012, 02:48 PM   #9
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Let me tell you one thing about the BMW i8. And although everything is still in development the areas of greatness are coming to reality.
The BMW i8 with its lightweight Carbon body and concept car looks will give some sports cars out there a fright. Early drives show the car can accelerate and handle like any other sports car. Watch out for it playing in the snow - The Spy photos and videos from Sweden must be imminent.
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      01-23-2012, 06:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by River Rat View Post
With other companies having super cars in their line up.. such as the Mercedes SLS AMG, Audi R8 and even the Lexus LFA. Will the BMW M division come up with something?
give me an f30M5 and i would'nt worry about the competition.
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      01-23-2012, 10:03 PM   #11
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I would rather have a SLS AMG or LFA,than a M5... That is saying, money wasn't an issue. I am not saying that the M5 isn't a great car, just missing that wow factor look that the MB and Lexus has. Just my opinion, each to his own..
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      01-24-2012, 06:54 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q4P View Post
Disagree with almost everything there... Audi needed to make an R8 to prove a point?, Mercedes needed the SLS to prove a point after having tons of awesome AMG models?, Porsche needed to build a Carrera GT to prove a point? The only case where I can see this being true is Lexus which was always branded as a softer more mature car but that company certainly proved itself by creating a super car that ran a 7:14 at the 'ring. The point is; a company that has proper management and a proper philosophy doesn't care and can still make a lot of money to offset the production of a super car, BMW no longer feels they need to do that. I don't think anyone is saying they need to do that but they certainly could and should as almost every single competitor of theirs has.

I don't know, whether you do not get it?
Building a supercar - like you propose - proves NOTHING.
Any carmaker today is capable of building a car that can do 7:30 laps at Nordschleife with a skilled driver (which translates to sub 7:20 times for their testdrivers, which push these cars on a daily basis at Nordschleife).
Even Tata, Volvo, Suzuki, whoever can - because the recipe of such a car is technically fairly simple. The BIG challenge is to earn money with such a car. Companies building on a strong brand in this direction (Ferrari, Lambo) are able to make money, because they are able to sell certain quantities - others could build such a car, but lacking the brand name, it is hard to sell enough cars to make it a business case.
Then there are some companies which know that the supercar itself is not profitable but they expect to push regular car selling numbers with a halo car – so overall it might be a business case.

Take Audi for example. The Audi R8 made totally sense for them because of two reasons:
1. It wasn’t that expensive for them because they had access to Lamborghinis technology. R8 is completely based on the Gallardo platform
2. In the direct competition with BMW - Audi needed additional sportier appeal because its (despite the new “modularer Längsbaukasten” concept, it is nose heavy and understeering prone – see disastrous RS3 test results.) regular models lack the RWD BMW sportiness.

Mercedes also obviously has an “overall business case”. The customer base of Mercedes is remarkably older than BMW and Audi! Look at CEO Zetsches last speech, where he emphasized the need to make Mercs customer base younger (by emphasizing on sportier image)…

Nissan is a special case: Although the design of the GT-R is not to my liking – technically the car is superb – but I bet (don’t know the total sales volume), that it is extremely pushed by subvention (just look at the improvements which Nissan invests in the GT-R on a yearly basis)….. but Nissan simply needs a halo car to push the regular product lines…. More than other carmakers.

So – technically speaking – being able to produce a i8 like car (completely new technology) and making a business case out of it (not having to push it with BIG financial subventions) would REALLY PROVE technological leadership.

So – bottom line:
For me – being a big BMW fan – it would be nice to see BMW having a super car – although I can’t afford it. Just for the sake of being able to play “top trumps quartet” with my friends voting for other car companies 
Someone saying that BMW has to prove to be able to build one has simply not a clue of automotive industry and obviously totally overestimates what is needed to build one.

Best regards,

Manuel
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      01-24-2012, 10:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q4P View Post
repost although I don't agree with misterskimask
M has recently confirmed they have dropped all plans for a mid-engine supercar. They are happy plodding along in their quest for mediocrity as it turns the highest profit. So, no. The answer is no.

Source: http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/12/29/bm...-the-supercar/
Quote:
“A lot of people come to me and ask, does M need a supercar? We’ve had the choice to do something like that that when we were planning the 1-Series M Coupe. Amongst its development, we all pondered: do we do a supercar as in a mid-engined wedge, or some super high-priced front-engined wedge?,” said Russell. “We’ve discussed these possibilities. But ultimately, we didn’t feel the need to make a very exclusive high-end supercar and we still don’t. I already firmly believe that we produce supercars, except that they’re two in one: an executive car with supercar performance. They are the essence of BMW M-Cars.”
Besides the M3 is apparently already a supercar.....

BMW feels no need to compete with Audi (R8) or Mercedes (SLS) as they feel that those cars "do not offer significant performance innovations" that they aren't already doing in their line of cars. It's marketing BS but that's the bottom line. When a company calls a 4 door sedan a supercar, they have lost it.
Quote:
When pressed further about M building an Audi R8, Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG or Lexus LFA competitor, Matt responded to egmcartech.com,

“I look at those cars in two different ways: cosmetically and at a performance stand point. Sure Lexus, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche all created supercars with a great deal of sex appeal. But I see our M cars as sexy too. Performance wise, they’re not doing anything that we haven’t already done in a two-door sports coupe or four-door sports sedan, thus there’s no huge performance breakthrough on those cars that we can’t create or sell at a lower price point. All of that said, we don’t think the BMW M buyer needs a super exclusive and super expensive car because of what they get from our current M-Cars. Most buyers already have second cars that have more of an emphasis on performance and BMW M shows the world how versatile and livable a supercar can be. BMW M cars are for those buyers who don’t want to make that sacrifice in performance for practicality.”
There is NO BMW halo car. The tech is dispersed throughout the model range. For example, the S63 was updated to the S63Tu and is now their "halo" V8. Just like the S65 was borrowed from the "halo" V10 S85.
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Last edited by stefan; 01-24-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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      01-28-2012, 09:51 PM   #14
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If BMW were to make a limited production, ultra expensive super car it's pretty much a guarantee that they would sell out before production starts. There are plenty of BMW owners flush with cash that would love getting an exclusive ///M super car. It won't hurt any of their sales and I'm sure they would turn a nice profit. I personally know BMW owners that are forced to go to elsewhere when they want to buy something more exotic.
Number one rule in the car business is keep ur customers from going someplace else. This product should be made for that reason alone of no other existed.. What's to stop the guy who buys an sls amg from buying an s-class instead of another 7 series?? Or buying his kid the c class or his wife the ML...
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