Supercharged e90 M3 Failure

[GOVCO]

[NEW FLASH M3POST.COM]

This has been the most informative stuff I have read on this forum in a while. Please Sticky this muthafuka.

Conclusion: Mod at your own risk. If shit blows up; blame your desire to drive an M. [CASE CLOSED]

[classic6]

Originally Posted by MPoweredAuto

Are you saying I should have just stayed quiet?

What type of evidence would suffice to prove their kit caused this undoubtably? They have since removed the tune they installed.

no I'm not saying you should have stayed quiet, but dont say you are trying to clear your name, when you are the one who is giving yourself that name.
thats all.

evidence...actual evidence would be real nice! As of now, you are saying its them without proving that it is from the s/c kit. Honestly, your problem easily could have happen bone stock and its just a coincidence that it happened while you had the charger on. I'm sorry that this has happened, but it has. It doesnt matter if you get legal advice or not, they have their disclaimer on their site. Simple as that!
Good luck and by no means am i attacking you, just giving my opinion.

[CanAutM3]

@ BMRLVR

If I remember correctly, you mentionned that the S65 was designed with bearing clearances on the tight side, especially true when significantly increasing engine power.

In your opinion, could this be a cause for this specific engine failure?

Was the rod that failed also farthest from the oil pump?

Could it be a combination of factors that caused the failure (over rev weakening tie rod, tight bearing clearances + increased loads from SC)

I understand it's difficult to draw any solid conclusions without analysing the actual hardware and data, but it's still fun speculating.

[issabmw]

I thought I'd chime in.

Regarding those who take statements made within the thread and construe them as fact, and constantly pick at pieces of text in order to support their own belief of what is true, simply because you've made the choice of who you want to believe, I ask you this. Put yourself in the position of those whom are being called upon.

Based on the persistence and cooperation of the OP, I think his claim should be taken more seriously than a simple 'sorry bro, but you're dishonest' even though you're evaluation is based off of the opinions and interpretations of others. If the OP truly was driving the vehicle at a constant speed, and the engine did indeed give out, I would be at a loss for words, and I'm sure all of you would be as well. Most of you would have handled the situation the exact same way.

Likewise, I'm sure Andrew is telling the truth, yet what he knows is only as credible as what he's seen and has been told. I wouldn't hold Active accountable at this point because the problem isn't clear, but do remember the associates who were present during the incident are no longer affiliated. This creates a hole in this scenario, due to the vital information that they carry. That in mind, the sheet that they produced did not seem to display data that coincided with BMW's evaluation.

Point being, the notion of 'pay to play' and the constant finger pointing by members, who know nothing regarding who's at fault, is childish. If any of you were in the OP's position, and you knew that you were not responsible, you'd feel pretty helpless. If the OP is indeed telling the truth, the act of defending AA is fueling the fire of fraud. Likewise, if the OP is at fault, the harassment of AA is detrimental to their business and degrades their reputation, and so far they've received nothing but praise. Since none of you can decipher who's story is credible, I suggest you keep the finger pointing to a minimum, and keep the constructive efforts to uncover the truth at a maximum.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

@ BMRLVR

If I remember correctly, you mentionned that the S65 was designed with bearing clearances on the tight side, especially true when significantly increasing engine power.

In your opinion, could this be a cause for this specific engine failure?

Was the rod that failed also farthest from the oil pump?

Could it be a combination of factors that caused the failure (over rev weakening tie rod, tight bearing clearances + increased loads from SC)

I understand it's difficult to draw any solid conclusions without analysing the actual hardware and data, but it's still fun speculating.

There are so many variables in this failure that it is almost impossible to tell what actually caused it without having a formal failure analysis performed.

Was there an over rev at all???

Did the engine have a detonation issue???

To me looking at the exhaust valves on 3 out of 4 of the cylinders on the head that was shown in the picture, it sure looks like it was running lean and lean running is one of the things that causes detonation.

The tight bearing clearances could have been a contributing factor but this engine had 20000+ miles without an issue so I doubt it was that.

Here are my two best guesses of the cause of the failure:

1) If the car actually had an over rev, it weakened the connecting rod H-beam and/or stretched the big end and a little while later, it broke due to the damage.

2) The engine had a tuning issue. By looking at the pictures of the spark plugs and exhaust valves the engine was running lean. This lean running condition was putting excessive stress on the engine and after a while the engine succumbed to the stress the detonation was putting on it. This would explain why AA decided to change the tune for the Stage 2 kit, including lowering boost and making meth optional for the "Stage 2+" kit.

A third but unlikely scenario is that the engine would have failed regardless of the if the AA kit was installed or not but I highly doubt that.

Like I have said already, there are so many facts missing and holes in both parties' stories I am sure the truth will never be known.

I bet Gintani is happy though, this thread came up and took all the heat off of their video thread!

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

By looking at the pictures of the spark plugs and exhaust valves the engine was running lean.

Where are the pics of the plugs? I missed them...

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

Where are the pics of the plugs? I missed them...

You have to follow the link in the original thread started a year ago........

http://www.ziptied.com/forums/index.php?topic=34449.45

It appears that the thread has been blocked and registration is currently disabled. Coincidence, I think not!

Anyhow three out of the four plugs shown were white just like the exhaust valves in the cylinder head that is pictured. The black plug and corresponding black coloured exhaust valves are most likely from the cylinder with the failure and is a result of oil residue!

EDIT: Found the photos of the plugs in post #20














Also of note, although it has already been posted, here is a quote from the other thread:

So i have done alot of work to our E92 M3 shop car, and i got a call tonight that it "exploded" while driving down the highway....

Its an 08 M3 with the following mods
full exhaust
lowering springs
active autowerke supercharger kit
rogue short shifter
exhaust cut outs

it only has 25k miles on it
pretty run of the mill stuff, so today i installed high flow cats in place of the straight pipe cat deletes we had, and not even 30 minutes later i got a call saying that there was stuff everywhere and it exploded... *i drive down to check it out and there are pieces of oil pan and what i assume rod all over the high way, as well as all the oil out of the car. *My boss was driving the car, and said after he merged onto the highway he shifted into 3rd gear at about 5k RPM and it just went boom.

now as far as blowing up in this fashion, i do not believe it was mechanical over rev (mis shift) due to the lower end damage. *The oil has been changed religiously with lubro moly oil and OEM filters (actually more often than called for). *The car has had a few quirks, when it was stock it dynoed 20whp less than our old M3, was a dealership demo car, which i feel is part of the issue.


anyway back to the original topic, as far as throwing rods, i was under the impression that this usually only happens due to oil starvation or worn bearings... at 25k it shouldnt be either.. yes it is supercharged running methanol but this would not affect the bottom end correct?

basically i want to know what the hell went wrong, and does anyone have any suggestions on what we should do from here?

thanks ZT sorry i rambled a bit...

Since the car was a "shop car" and a "demo", God only knows what type of abuse that poor engine has seen in its short life. We all know how much respect that shop cars and demos are driven with!!!

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

You have to follow the link in the original thread started a year ago........

http://www.ziptied.com/forums/index.php?topic=34449.45

It appears that the thread has been blocked and registration is currently disabled. Coincidence, I think not!

Anyhow three out of the four plugs shown were white just like the exhaust valves in the cylinder head that is pictured. The black plug and corresponding black coloured exhaust valves are most likely from the cylinder with the failure and is a result of oil residue!

Ah yes I remember the thread - thanks.

What you say of course makes sense.

[Edjay]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

2) The engine had a tuning issue. By looking at the pictures of the spark plugs and exhaust valves the engine was running lean. This lean running condition was putting excessive stress on the engine and after a while the engine succumbed to the stress the detonation was putting on it. This would explain why AA decided to change the tune for the Stage 2 kit, including lowering boost and making meth optional for the "Stage 2+" kit.
!

The top of the pistons doesnt show signs of detonations. Possible it was running a bit on the lean side, but it doesnt look like enough to do damage.
I have seen what detonation can do, usually before it throws a rod, pistons shows signs, pitting, melting or broken rings/ring land.

[US///M3]

Sounds similar to what happened to the op's engine.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=439844


I leased a new 2010 M3 coupe, and after only 500 miles, I suffered a broken rod and subsequent engine failure. I opted for the DCT instead of the manual transmission.

I have not seen my car for over 11 weeks. A regional rep downloaded computer data, and it was determined that the engine failed due to an "RPM" issue. I have been unable to obtain any specifics and have tried, unsuccessfully, to get a copy of this data for review. The dealer will only say that the recommended 4500 RPM limit was exceeded. Nothing else was noted from the data.

After 3-4 weeks, I was finally informed of the reason why the engineers felt the engine failed. A decision was made by BMW that the problem was not covered under warranty and would therefore not be repaired under warranty. I contacted a customer rep, and after over two months of waiting, a decision was finally made that the car would be repaired under "goodwill". I have previously leased an M3 convertible, 545 i and a 2008 335 xi coupe.

Despite the fact that the car will be repaired, BMW has shown me that it is a classless operation. The company has shown no professionalism, and I have had to personally call multiple times and write multiple letters before something was finally done. It looks like the only reason they decided to repair my vehicle was because I have a track record with BMW. What if this M3 had been my first BMW lease/purchase? To not stand behind an M performance vehicle is outright embarrasing and weak. I have received no apologies from the company, and they have been frankly conceited and indifferent.

I have loved the BMW brand until now. I will have to live with this vehicle for the next three years, but after that, BMW can go to hell. There are many other companies which certainly have more pride in their vehicles and turn out excellent products. I understand that automobiles are mechanical and that there is the chance of catastrophic failure, but I cannot accept that a company simply blames "RPMs" for a complete engine failure (especially with a DCT) without the consideration that the problem may have occurred on the assembly line or in the manufacturing of a part.

If there is anyone reading this post who has any further information or knowledge of similar occurrences, I would love the hear from you. If there is anyone reading this post who is associated with BMW, a simple apology and explanation may change my mind concerning the company. Right now, I am mad as hell as my brand new vehicle has been sitting in a garage for almost three months while I have made three payments during that time.

If BMW were to have shown more concern, I could have stomached the situation a lot better. I am a physician and have many coworkers who drive nice vehicles. After finding out about my situation, I know of 4 friends and coworkers who were previously considering an M3. Now, they are not only not considering an M3 but not considering BMW at all. This has occurred without me even making an active effort to voice my displeasure over the recent event.

The Joy of Driving my ass- more like the ultimate nightmare!

03-10-2010, 04:51 PM

adc BMW Fahrer Location: DC-MD-VA

J

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by Edjay

The top of the pistons doesnt show signs of detonations. Possible it was running a bit on the lean side, but it doesnt look like enough to do damage.
I have seen what detonation can do, usually before it throws a rod, pistons shows signs, pitting, melting or broken rings/ring land.

Detonation is not always visible by pitting marks, it depends on the alloy the piston is made of. As for the ring lands/rings, we didn't get a chance to see them so no one can say if there was damage or not.

I only said that this was "possible" it was detonating and I am not saying it was a definite. By looking at a bunch of pictures no one can tell with any amount of certainty if this is the case.

Either way, the engine does look like it was running a little lean.

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Since the car was a "shop car" and a "demo", God only knows what type of abuse that poor engine has seen in its short life. We all know how much respect that shop cars and demos are driven with!!!

Totally. IMO - a good dealer knows that an M3 demo is going to get the crap kicked out of it. Plus there are plenty of dumb-asses out there who will do the wrong thing. This thing could have been a ticking time-bomb to begin with...

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Detonation is not always visible by pitting marks, it depends on the alloy the piston is made of. As for the ring lands/rings, we didn't get a chance to see them so no one can say if there was damage or not.

I only said that this was "possible" it was detonating and I am not saying it was a definite. By looking at a bunch of pictures no one can tell with any amount of certainty if this is the case.

Either way, the engine does look like it was running a little lean.

Since you love speculating, what caused a 2010 stock DCT M3 to have the same rod go through the block?

[MPoweredAuto]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Detonation is not always visible by pitting marks, it depends on the alloy the piston is made of. As for the ring lands/rings, we didn't get a chance to see them so no one can say if there was damage or not.

I only said that this was "possible" it was detonating and I am not saying it was a definite. By looking at a bunch of pictures no one can tell with any amount of certainty if this is the case.

Either way, the engine does look like it was running a little lean.

The piston was split in half and the rings were damaged as a result. I wish I had documented the tear down as specifically as possible, but at the time it was disassembled we didn't take detailed pics...

As for it being a dealer demo, it was in fact the sales managers car at a reputable dealership who traded up for a 7 series. He didnt spark me as the type to abuse a car.

With all that said, I have other important endeavors to attend and am once again out of town. I am currently in S. Florida, where I am planning to relocate. I will post up data findings when pulled from the DME on Monday/Tuesday when I am back in NC.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by US///M3

Sounds similar to what happened to the op's engine.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=439844


I leased a new 2010 M3 coupe, and after only 500 miles, I suffered a broken rod and subsequent engine failure. I opted for the DCT instead of the manual transmission.

I have not seen my car for over 11 weeks. A regional rep downloaded computer data, and it was determined that the engine failed due to an "RPM" issue. I have been unable to obtain any specifics and have tried, unsuccessfully, to get a copy of this data for review. The dealer will only say that the recommended 4500 RPM limit was exceeded. Nothing else was noted from the data.

After 3-4 weeks, I was finally informed of the reason why the engineers felt the engine failed. A decision was made by BMW that the problem was not covered under warranty and would therefore not be repaired under warranty. I contacted a customer rep, and after over two months of waiting, a decision was finally made that the car would be repaired under "goodwill". I have previously leased an M3 convertible, 545 i and a 2008 335 xi coupe.

Despite the fact that the car will be repaired, BMW has shown me that it is a classless operation. The company has shown no professionalism, and I have had to personally call multiple times and write multiple letters before something was finally done. It looks like the only reason they decided to repair my vehicle was because I have a track record with BMW. What if this M3 had been my first BMW lease/purchase? To not stand behind an M performance vehicle is outright embarrasing and weak. I have received no apologies from the company, and they have been frankly conceited and indifferent.

I have loved the BMW brand until now. I will have to live with this vehicle for the next three years, but after that, BMW can go to hell. There are many other companies which certainly have more pride in their vehicles and turn out excellent products. I understand that automobiles are mechanical and that there is the chance of catastrophic failure, but I cannot accept that a company simply blames "RPMs" for a complete engine failure (especially with a DCT) without the consideration that the problem may have occurred on the assembly line or in the manufacturing of a part.

If there is anyone reading this post who has any further information or knowledge of similar occurrences, I would love the hear from you. If there is anyone reading this post who is associated with BMW, a simple apology and explanation may change my mind concerning the company. Right now, I am mad as hell as my brand new vehicle has been sitting in a garage for almost three months while I have made three payments during that time.

If BMW were to have shown more concern, I could have stomached the situation a lot better. I am a physician and have many coworkers who drive nice vehicles. After finding out about my situation, I know of 4 friends and coworkers who were previously considering an M3. Now, they are not only not considering an M3 but not considering BMW at all. This has occurred without me even making an active effort to voice my displeasure over the recent event.

The Joy of Driving my ass- more like the ultimate nightmare!

03-10-2010, 04:51 PM

adc BMW Fahrer Location: DC-MD-VA

J

It sure does, a gentleman in Calgary also had a thrown rod as well! Here is the thread:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=569512

His was covered by warranty and he still has the car and everything is good. Engines do fail no matter how good they are or who builds them, but in a generally speaking sort of way, failures due to defects usually show up early in an engines' life!

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by US///M3

Since you love speculating, what caused a 2010 stock DCT M3 to have the same rod go through the block?

Post pictures of your engine and we will attempt to tell you : )

Seriously - sounds like a horrible situation with BMW in which they totally let you down. That sucks. But all engines have failure rates from every manufacturer. The fact that they told you it was an RPM issue without specific information is unacceptable and arrogant.

There was a classic E46 engine failure case back on roadfly IIRC in which a guy who blew his E46 M3 engine took BMW to court and won. BMW introduced shadow memory evidence showing that the car had been abused. The customer's explanation was that it had been in so much for service, that no one could prove that it was actually the customer who had abused it. Ultimately this guy won and BMW replaced his engine. I don't believe the shadow memory logged the mileage at the time like it does now, but I could be mistaken. A tuner could probably confirm...

[Edjay]

Assuming this is the one that threw a rod( judging by the exhaust valves not white). That cumbustion chamber and plugs looks too good to be detonation enough to throw a rod. Those spark plug tips should have been damaged at the least.




Those pistons does not look like it was detonation, should atleast match the whiteness of the exhaust valves on the same area or slight whiteness in the middle where the plugs go.


I do agree with you, that it looks like a bit lean. Just that I dont think it was enough to throw the rod.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Detonation is not always visible by pitting marks, it depends on the alloy the piston is made of. As for the ring lands/rings, we didn't get a chance to see them so no one can say if there was damage or not.

I only said that this was "possible" it was detonating and I am not saying it was a definite. By looking at a bunch of pictures no one can tell with any amount of certainty if this is the case.

Either way, the engine does look like it was running a little lean.

+1.I talked to my old engine builder who has tons of experiance with big HP FI engines and who is a current BMW tech.He said that detonation if left unchecked it will usually cause damage to the bottom end before it is visible on the pistons and a rod failure is a pretty good indicator of this especially with no seizure at the big end journal.The pictures of the plugs & exhaust valves sure show a very lean condition which on a 12 to 1 engine that is FI is going to cause problems at some point for sure.I do speak from experiance on this as I did work in a race shop doing teardowns & inspection before rebuilding & dyno testing when I was in school.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

It sure does, a gentleman in Calgary also had a thrown rod as well! Here is the thread:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=569512

His was covered by warranty and he still has the car and everything is good. Engines do fail no matter how good they are or who builds them, but in a generally speaking sort of way, failures due to defects usually show up early in an engines' life!

If it's a manufacturing defect,there's no given time or mileage when the part causing the failure will go. Like with the n54 hpfp some were able to last 60k miles on a 07 335i and others cars went through 3 pumps in 20k miles.

[MatthewDavid]

Well, now that I'm adequately spooked about the S65 failing for no apparent (and certainly for apparent) reasons, I'm second guessing my 2012 order...

That said I've had my 2008 for 57k miles and the worst problem I've had, aside from the new DCT software nightmare, is a burnt out tail light.

[MPoweredAuto]

The spark plugs in the engine now are BMW originals. I think I sent the old plugs back but may still have the plugs from the car when it occurred. Don't know what good that will do but can post pics upon my return as well.

[SHOWTIME]

Originally Posted by US///M3

Sounds similar to what happened to the op's engine.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=439844


I leased a new 2010 M3 coupe, and after only 500 miles, I suffered a broken rod and subsequent engine failure. I opted for the DCT instead of the manual transmission.

I have not seen my car for over 11 weeks. A regional rep downloaded computer data, and it was determined that the engine failed due to an "RPM" issue. I have been unable to obtain any specifics and have tried, unsuccessfully, to get a copy of this data for review. The dealer will only say that the recommended 4500 RPM limit was exceeded. Nothing else was noted from the data.

After 3-4 weeks, I was finally informed of the reason why the engineers felt the engine failed. A decision was made by BMW that the problem was not covered under warranty and would therefore not be repaired under warranty. I contacted a customer rep, and after over two months of waiting, a decision was finally made that the car would be repaired under "goodwill". I have previously leased an M3 convertible, 545 i and a 2008 335 xi coupe.

Despite the fact that the car will be repaired, BMW has shown me that it is a classless operation. The company has shown no professionalism, and I have had to personally call multiple times and write multiple letters before something was finally done. It looks like the only reason they decided to repair my vehicle was because I have a track record with BMW. What if this M3 had been my first BMW lease/purchase? To not stand behind an M performance vehicle is outright embarrasing and weak. I have received no apologies from the company, and they have been frankly conceited and indifferent.

I have loved the BMW brand until now. I will have to live with this vehicle for the next three years, but after that, BMW can go to hell. There are many other companies which certainly have more pride in their vehicles and turn out excellent products. I understand that automobiles are mechanical and that there is the chance of catastrophic failure, but I cannot accept that a company simply blames "RPMs" for a complete engine failure (especially with a DCT) without the consideration that the problem may have occurred on the assembly line or in the manufacturing of a part.

If there is anyone reading this post who has any further information or knowledge of similar occurrences, I would love the hear from you. If there is anyone reading this post who is associated with BMW, a simple apology and explanation may change my mind concerning the company. Right now, I am mad as hell as my brand new vehicle has been sitting in a garage for almost three months while I have made three payments during that time.

If BMW were to have shown more concern, I could have stomached the situation a lot better. I am a physician and have many coworkers who drive nice vehicles. After finding out about my situation, I know of 4 friends and coworkers who were previously considering an M3. Now, they are not only not considering an M3 but not considering BMW at all. This has occurred without me even making an active effort to voice my displeasure over the recent event.

The Joy of Driving my ass- more like the ultimate nightmare!

03-10-2010, 04:51 PM

adc BMW Fahrer Location: DC-MD-VA

J

I hear you buddy. BMW representatives are so gassed with their heads so far up their asses that they feel their engineering cannot possibly fail. It must be the customer's fault somehow.
I once went in for the sunroof panel that you close manually with your hand. It came out of alignment and would not close right. Guess what they said? Driver misuse and cannot be covered under warranty. I flipped! Even the manager came to calm me down and explain. I said to him, are you an idiot? How many ways are there to open/close a sunroof? you either pull back or push forward! My Camry obviously has no problem with the way I do it! Then they agreed to cover it under warranty only if I decide to fix and pay the weather stripping that was falling off as well. That was a completely separate issue by the windows which was also a defect that they would not cover. I flipped again and finally they settled with fixing the sunroof panel under warranty. I was so disgusted with them that I went to infiniti after.