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      01-24-2012, 05:01 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatgrandma View Post
jgmann at 12:54 PM January 24, 2012
"One officer shot the man five times, and a second officer shot the man five more times after he fell to the pavement."

--------------

So one or two well-placed shots wouldn't have stopped him? So they each shot him five times? Five shots AFTER he was down? A shot in the shoulder would have made it really hard for him to swing that "deadly" bar.

In 20 years of Law Enforment in the military my colleagues and I encountered many incidents not unlike this, and the K-9 unit always made quick work of it... why wasn't the dog used instead of being kept on a leash? And why is the K-9 officer holding his gun the way gang members do..?

The state needs to re-evaluate their training programs in light of the Lancaster incident and this one. Whatever they're teaching isn't working.
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      01-24-2012, 05:15 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panicos81 View Post
jgmann at 12:54 PM January 24, 2012
"One officer shot the man five times, and a second officer shot the man five more times after he fell to the pavement."

--------------

So one or two well-placed shots wouldn't have stopped him? So they each shot him five times? Five shots AFTER he was down? A shot in the shoulder would have made it really hard for him to swing that "deadly" bar.

In 20 years of Law Enforment in the military my colleagues and I encountered many incidents not unlike this, and the K-9 unit always made quick work of it... why wasn't the dog used instead of being kept on a leash? And why is the K-9 officer holding his gun the way gang members do..?

The state needs to re-evaluate their training programs in light of the Lancaster incident and this one. Whatever they're teaching isn't working.
If you look closely, he's holding the dog back with one hand, that is why he is holding his firearm in one hand. Thought that was pretty obvious.

So, after a tazer doesn't work, you're going to allow the dog to probably be beaten to death while he's being brought down? My dad and uncle were both in K-9 unit together, and they'd never let the dog go in when the perp had a weapon.

The loss of a working dog would be much greater than the loss of some shit head druggie scumbag.

Why don't all you people who are defending this moron just come out and say at the start of your posts that you hate cops? It would probably make your arguments make a lot more sense.
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      01-24-2012, 05:20 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panicos81 View Post

In 20 years of Law Enforment in the military my colleagues and I encountered many incidents not unlike this, and the K-9 unit always made quick work of it... why wasn't the dog used instead of being kept on a leash? And why is the K-9 officer holding his gun the way gang members do..?
Didn't we already cover this...??? You people think these dogs are impervious to weapons...?



There isn't a handler in the world that would release their dog while a perp is holding a weapon... EVER. You're retarded if you can't come to that conclusion on your own... and I mean seriously.. you're a mentally challenged person.
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      01-24-2012, 05:23 PM   #92
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Lmao the dog pic made me
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      01-24-2012, 05:26 PM   #93
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Ok, I've finished my doughnut and the renegade skateboard calls, so here goes. In a vaccuum (have not read any articles) it looks like a fully justified use of force. The guy looks to be carrying conduit bender and has already exhibited violent tendencies before police arrival.

Lethal force is justified to protect yourself or another from great bodily harm (GBH) or death. It is allowed BEFORE GBH, so the officer does not have the requirement to wait until the offender decides.

Also, in most TASER situations, there is a TASER officer and a lethal cover. Department policies and national best practices prevent having a TASER and a firearm out at the same time, so when the offender turned toward the TASER officer and shouldered the weapon, the lethal cover officer saw the threat and did his job.

The offender did not obey officer commands despite the display of a variety of weapon systems and then turned on an officer. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Justified by all outward appearances.

To address those complaining about the number of shots: Once deadly force is justified, it is irrelevant how force is applied, whether it be gun, back hoe, or tire iron. While it is objectionable to many civilians, the number of rounds do not matter. We are trained to stop shooting once the threat is stopped. Apply the reasonable officer standard here. Was the 1.5 seconds from start to finish a reasonable amont of time to decide to make the biggest decision of your career, act on that thought, be concerned for stray rounds considering the number of civillian personnel standing around and then realize that the threat was over before emptying his weapon?

That's for the courts to decide, but based on my training and experience, that's how the trial will go down.

Now, could there have been a viable alternative to handling this? Perhaps, but its easy to pick it apart from behind our computers with varying degrees of bias and life experience.
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      01-24-2012, 05:34 PM   #94
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What's the big deal? I saw an idiot die.

Good job cop.
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      01-24-2012, 05:34 PM   #95
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and that, my friends, is the word.

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      01-24-2012, 05:39 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by immiketoo View Post
Ok, I've finished my doughnut and the renegade skateboard calls, so here goes. In a vaccuum (have not read any articles) it looks like a fully justified use of force. The guy looks to be carrying conduit bender and has already exhibited violent tendencies before police arrival.

Lethal force is justified to protect yourself or another from great bodily harm (GBH) or death. It is allowed BEFORE GBH, so the officer does not have the requirement to wait until the offender decides.

Also, in most TASER situations, there is a TASER officer and a lethal cover. Department policies and national best practices prevent having a TASER and a firearm out at the same time, so when the offender turned toward the TASER officer and shouldered the weapon, the lethal cover officer saw the threat and did his job.

The offender did not obey officer commands despite the display of a variety of weapon systems and then turned on an officer. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Justified by all outward appearances.

To address those complaining about the number of shots: Once deadly force is justified, it is irrelevant how force is applied, whether it be gun, back hoe, or tire iron. While it is objectionable to many civilians, the number of rounds do not matter. We are trained to stop shooting once the threat is stopped. Apply the reasonable officer standard here. Was the 1.5 seconds from start to finish a reasonable amont of time to decide to make the biggest decision of your career, act on that thought, be concerned for stray rounds considering the number of civillian personnel standing around and then realize that the threat was over before emptying his weapon?

That's for the courts to decide, but based on my training and experience, that's how the trial will go down.

Now, could there have been a viable alternative to handling this? Perhaps, but its easy to pick it apart from behind our computers with varying degrees of bias and life experience.
One last thing Mike... can you confirm or deny the fact that police dogs are impervious to man made weapons...? I believe some people in this thread believe that unless the weapon is constructed of kryptonite the dog remains unharmed...
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      01-24-2012, 05:42 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCGP View Post
One last thing Mike... can you confirm or deny the fact that police dogs are impervious to man made weapons...? I believe some people in this thread believe that unless the weapon is constructed of kryptonite the dog remains unharmed...
I don't know a lot about K9 protocol, but if theres a chance you might have to shoot, you don't want the dog in the way. I've seen police dogs get shot and die, and it's heart wrenching. They are NOT invincible, nor are they expendable.

I don't address sheer idiocy unless absolutely necessary.
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      01-24-2012, 05:42 PM   #98
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and that, my friends, is the word.
bahaha
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      01-24-2012, 05:43 PM   #99
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Some dogs can deflect and/or evade bullets. One example is underdog...i can think of others.
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      01-24-2012, 06:16 PM   #100
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one other thing i would like to point out. We watched a video shot from inside a car 100 feet away. While looking through raindrops. We only are given one perspective on the entire situation, those cops were up close and experienced this first hand.

we are making judgements based on amateur camera phone videography taken from the safety of a car you can't see out of properly.
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      01-24-2012, 06:18 PM   #101
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      01-24-2012, 06:44 PM   #102
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There was a bystander hit with a stray bullet.

Re why the dog was out but not released:

"rather than giving foot chase, simply drove up next to the suspects and told them to get on the ground or he would send the dog. (This was just a bluff, but it worked.) Both subjects immediately stopped and got on the sidewalk, conveniently placing themselves in position to be searched and arrested"

Then a few days later: "tried to assist by grabbing onto the suspect’s second arm. Even then, the suspect refused to comply, and continued kicking and wrestling with both the officers. Officer called K9 out of the car and told the dog to lay down at Officer’s side. The dog obeyed perfectly and barked, but did not even attempt to bite, even though his handler was still wrestling with the suspect. The suspect, upon seeing and hearing the dog, immediately went limp and allowed himself to be taken into custody without further incident.

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      01-24-2012, 07:06 PM   #103
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Quote:
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There was a bystander hit with a stray bullet.
Actually, I think the bystander was hurt when a stray bullet shattered some glass. But the principle is the same.

BTW, purchasing and training a K-9 dog can cost somewhere between $10K and $20K. So, yeah, you don't just throw the dog into the mix for the hell of it.
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      01-24-2012, 07:09 PM   #104
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In canada I've heard as high as 25,000 which with todays exchange = 24,768.99USD
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      01-24-2012, 07:20 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCGP View Post
I am willing to bet both of you are under the age of 30, aren't in Law enforcement or have someone in your family/friends that is.. and most of all have never extensively fired a weapon.

I repeat for the incredibly ignorant. THIS IS NOT A FUCKING MOVIE. THIS IS REAL LIFE. YOU DO NOT RISK AIMING FOR SOMEONES EXTREMITIES WHEN SOMEONE IS OBVIOUSLY UNSTABLE. NOT EVERYONE IS BRUCE WILLIS OR MEL GIBSON...

K?
this man speaks the truth
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      01-24-2012, 07:22 PM   #106
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this man speaks the truth
speak for yourselves, my alter-ego is Bruce Willis.
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      01-24-2012, 07:23 PM   #107
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unfolded exactly how i would have imagine a situation like this would. glad no one else got hurt. lesson for the day: don't swing a weapon at a cop, especially if they have a gun pointing at you.

regarding the guys filming laughing, again, not surprised. not defending them, but laughing is a common reaction to seeing something this shocking. happens at funerals alot.
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      01-24-2012, 08:12 PM   #108
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Let's take the cops out of the picture and ask yourself this:

If you had a gun in your hand and a raging guy is coming at you with a pipe bender, your instinct tells you that he WILL swing at you, would you shoot him?

The answer is YES!

Shooting: Justified.

Move on, people. There's nothing to see here.
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      01-24-2012, 08:13 PM   #109
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die thread die!
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      01-24-2012, 08:24 PM   #110
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Fucking shoot that bitch again for good measure.

I hope you bleeding hearts get roflstomped by some dude who the police didn't shoot because they were too compassionate in a situation like this. You all hate the police until you're curled up in a closet in a fetal position because some ex-con with four previous violent felony convictions is on your doorstep or outside your daughter's window jerking off. I wish the cops could say "fuck you, you got better ideas so do it your god damn self" in that situation.
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