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      11-14-2010, 09:31 PM   #67
elp_jc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrad01 View Post
The check valve maintains an oil supply in the VANOS transmission and oil circuits after the engine is turned off. This prevents the possibility of piston movement (noise) within the VANOS transmission system on the next engine start."
Thanks, but I wanted to know where exactly the valves are, and where they get the oil from. By the way, there's no 'pistons' on VANOS.

And to throw you off, take a look at this info from a technical BMW document:

At zero pressure, a locking pin (2) also holds
the VANOS unit in the normal position or
engine start position.

That means even with no oil in the system, it's locked in its 'normal positon'. So the noise might be from something else .

It has pictures, but no pictures of the actual valves, or where they get oil from. This is what I could copy from the document, for your reading pleasure (pics didn't copy) :

VANOS
The compact double VANOS system fitted to
the S65 engine operates at normal oil
pressure, unlike the S85 engine (which uses
high oil pressure). The low-pressure system
means that the high-pressure pump and
additional pressure lines and reservoir are
unnecessary. This results in a space saving as
well as a weight reduction of approx. 8.4 kg.
This has been made possible by the
considerably stronger switching moments at
the camshaft compared to the 10-cylinder and
6-cylinder engine, particularly in the lower
engine speed range. The low-pressure
system uses these switching moments to
adjust the overall gear ratio.
The oil is directed to the sealed oil chambers
(3 and 4) of the VANOS adjustment unit.
When the chambers are pressurized with oil
pressure, one chamber allows the camshaft to
advance whilst the other chamber allows the
camshaft to retard.
The VANOS oil pressure is supplied by the
engine’s main oil pump. The VANOS oil flow is
controlled by one multiway valve for each
camshaft. These VANOS multiway valves are
controlled by the MSS60 and are directly
installed in the cylinder head.
41 - S65B40 VANOS hydraulic motor
Index Explanation
1 Optimized hydraulic rotor pressure
surfaces
2 Optimized inlet channel
oil chamber 1
3 Oil chamber 1
4 Oil chamber 2
5 Optimized inlet channel
oil chamber 2
42 - S65B40 VANOS Hydraulic schematic of a cylinder bank
Index Explanation
1 Oil supply from the main oil
gallery
2 Non-return valves
3 Sieve filter upstream from
control valves
4 Hydraulic motor at the inlet and
exhaust camshaft
5 Multiway adjustment valves inlet
and exhaust side
6 Oil return flange to the oil sump

51
8
As with the S85, the VANOS adjustment unit
of the inlet camshaft drives the VANOS
adjustment unit of the exhaust camshaft by
means of a constantly meshed gear.
At zero pressure, a locking pin (2) also holds
the VANOS unit in the normal position or
engine start position.
The spiral-wound spring (3) is also used for
coordinating the adjustment time between the
advance and retard adjustment.
In contrast to AG petrol engines, the spiralwound
spring for the inlet and exhaust sides is
mounted in the opposite working direction,
since the camshafts in the S65 rotate in the
opposite direction.
The principle of action of the hydraulic motor
in this M VANOS is based on the VANOS in
current BMW petrol engines and is optimized
for the S65 in terms of oil supply and drainage
diameters, and in the rotor surface area.
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      11-15-2010, 03:19 AM   #68
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Here is a link to the mp3 of my noise:

http://m-works.co.nz/M3Rattle4.mp3
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      11-19-2010, 05:11 AM   #69
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My dealer is ordering VANOs check valves now - the first round of fixes didn't work.

Will report back once the work is done (valves coming from Germany)
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      12-02-2010, 05:23 AM   #70
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Vanos check valves done. Car back today.

Lets see how the cold starts go over the next few days. I'll report back soon.
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      12-03-2010, 03:58 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrad01 View Post
Vanos check valves done. Car back today. Lets see how the cold starts go over the next few days. I'll report back soon.
Please do. VANOS check valves supposedly don't come into play at start-up according to BMW's own techical file, so curious how they can be a factor. But hope they solved your issue . Looking forward to your evaluation. Take care.
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      12-03-2010, 07:29 AM   #72
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my car do the same noise in cold start!!! do i have a problem because another 2 friends have the same noise and they said me that it is normal!!!

so what finnaly we do with this noise??
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      12-03-2010, 09:48 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Please do. VANOS check valves supposedly don't come into play at start-up according to BMW's own techical file, so curious how they can be a factor. But hope they solved your issue . Looking forward to your evaluation. Take care.
The check valves hold pressure - so while they are not engaged at startup, they hold pressure in from when the last time the engine was on.

BTW: so far, so good.
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      12-03-2010, 09:49 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanos-ktm View Post
my car do the same noise in cold start!!! do i have a problem because another 2 friends have the same noise and they said me that it is normal!!!

so what finnaly we do with this noise??
The immediate noisy VANOS is normal, what is abnormal is the metallic rattle just after the vanos noise....
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      12-03-2010, 10:06 PM   #75
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sounds normal to me..
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      12-16-2010, 11:21 AM   #76
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in GT5 it's called a 07 M3 :P
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      03-28-2011, 11:01 AM   #77
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Any update?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrad01 View Post
The immediate noisy VANOS is normal, what is abnormal is the metallic rattle just after the vanos noise....
Mrad01, do you have an update on the check valve fix? Did it remove the startup rattle for you?

I have the same startup rattle and it definitely seemed to be lack of oil to the upper part of the engine. If the engine has been stopped for several hours the noise will be present. If the engine has been recently ran, then a restart will not have the noise.

Do you have a photo of the check valve(s) and/or their location on the engine?
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      03-28-2011, 06:59 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlander665 View Post
Mrad01, do you have an update on the check valve fix? Did it remove the startup rattle for you?

I have the same startup rattle and it definitely seemed to be lack of oil to the upper part of the engine. If the engine has been stopped for several hours the noise will be present. If the engine has been recently ran, then a restart will not have the noise.

Do you have a photo of the check valve(s) and/or their location on the engine?
Yes, BMW Germany replaced my engine in the end with a nice shiny new 2011 S65. They changed the check valves and that didn't work. They tore down the engine and replaced the crank and bearings. Didn't work.

The new engine is great. Just running it in now....
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      05-19-2011, 09:21 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Sounds just like a main bearing man; sorry for the bad news. You should be able to easily reproduce it by revving the engine between idle and 1,500 rpm, as reported on other threads. Here are other 2 YouTube videos so you can hear how to reproduce it:





That's definitely not good news for '08 and early '09 owners (before main bearings were upgraded). Time to take it in. I know this is not a widespread problem, but it's scary to think it could happen after warranty expires, especially for those of us who don't put much mileage on our cars. Will have to seriously think about keeping mine beyond warranty. Good luck, and please keep us posted.
I have a 2011 M3 which suffers from this same noise on these two videos as well as the noise upon start up. The clacking noise from the bottom of the engine is only noticeable when the engine has been on for a while and it has fully reached its normal running temperature. I'm taking it back to the dealer next week but I'm expecting one of those typical replies "we could not duplicate the noise, so blah blah blah". These Miami service advisors are use to everyone trying to fool the system and are always predisposed; when an honest customer with an honest problem comes along, they treat it as unimportant. We'll see.
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      05-19-2011, 09:52 AM   #80
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The noise in the first video, doesn't sound like it's a crank speed to me.
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      01-10-2012, 07:43 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlander665 View Post
Mrad01, do you have an update on the check valve fix? Did it remove the startup rattle for you?

I have the same startup rattle and it definitely seemed to be lack of oil to the upper part of the engine. If the engine has been stopped for several hours the noise will be present. If the engine has been recently ran, then a restart will not have the noise.

Do you have a photo of the check valve(s) and/or their location on the engine?
do you have solution to your cold start loud noise? i had the same issue..pls share if you have solution to this..thks
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      01-10-2012, 01:17 PM   #82
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If my car sits for more than a day (it's my DD), I get this sound too. I'm in the process of replicating it with the dealer.
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      01-10-2012, 04:17 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waynec View Post
do you have solution to your cold start loud noise? i had the same issue..pls share if you have solution to this..thks
I pushed the issue hard with the dealer and BMW. It is NOT normal and you should not accept it.

NOTE: There is a bit of a light noise on startup with pretty much any VANOS engine - don't confuse this with that. VANOS coming up to pressure noise is normal.

So here is how it played out for me. (Could be long...)

*** Phase One:
I took recordings of my cold engine startups over 2 weeks (bonnet up, iPhone close by, but not in the engine bay). I was able to capture 6 very loud examples of the noise. I emailed these to the service dept (after telling them previously what I was going to do). These sounds ended up at BMW head office and eventually to BMW Germany.

Germany was sure it was the crank and crank bearing shells, so they sent a brand new crank and full set of bottom-end bearings. I got a call from the service dept who took my car for a week and pulled the engine out and rebuilt the bottom end. A M mechanic from head office was there to supervise. (Got a M3 vert as a loaner too. Sweet.)

Got the car back, sounded great! Then on the 3rd morning, the noise was back. Over the next 4 days I recorded it 4 times. It was almost worse. I rang the dealer, sent in the sound files and they asked for the car back.

By this stage BMW was very very interested. They asked if it was OK for the M specialist to take my car home for a few days - I said this was fine. That was a good move because it did it to him - and he was horrified at the sound!


*** Phase Two:
They called me up to tell me this news to which I replied "Surely it must be time for germany to send a new long block over and just get this sorted." They said they would do all they can, but were unsure what the sound/solution was. They were banking on the crank fixing it.

I got a phone call 3 hours later that day to inform me that BMW Germany was express freighting a !!Brand New!! engine for me.

5 days later the engine arrived, it was put into my car. (Germany wanted my engine shipped back untouched - I wonder why...)

I had to run it in (1200 miles of painful slowness) and it has since been perfect. No sound, awesome performance, happy man.


That is my story. It has been 9 months since that change and it is still great.

The BEST thing I did there was take some good quality recordings with date/time stamps over a 2 week period. Germany will be very interested to hear these sound files (send them as .mp3). I was patient and didn't ever lose my cool either.

Here is a recording of my sound: http://m-works.co.nz/M3Rattle4.mp3
You can hear the noise just after the engine fires. It was MUCH louder in real life.

Insist on a solution.
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      01-10-2012, 04:31 PM   #84
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Very reassuring (all the trouble you went through notwithstanding)!

At least they stepped up in the end.
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      01-10-2012, 05:13 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrad01 View Post
Here is a recording of my sound: http://m-works.co.nz/M3Rattle4.mp3
You can hear the noise just after the engine fires. It was MUCH louder in real life.

Insist on a solution.
Damn, that sucks, mine sounds just like that. It only seems to do it if it's sitting for more than a day though (which makes leaky check valves seem plausible). I talked to the dealer and they want to do some cold starts. I've been recording them recently but it hasn't happened again because I've been driving it everyday. I only noticed it over the holidays when I wasn't driving the car every day. I've only got 5 months left on my warranty too...

This was posted earlier but, this also sounds like mine:
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      01-10-2012, 09:01 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO View Post
Damn, that sucks, mine sounds just like that. It only seems to do it if it's sitting for more than a day though (which makes leaky check valves seem plausible). I talked to the dealer and they want to do some cold starts. I've been recording them recently but it hasn't happened again because I've been driving it everyday. I only noticed it over the holidays when I wasn't driving the car every day. I've only got 5 months left on my warranty too...

This was posted earlier but, this also sounds like mine:
Sounds EXACTLY like mine did. Check valves didn't sort mine - they were done months before the engine replacement incident.

Get something underway now with your dealer. Ask them to esculate it to BMW Germany and tell them you want an answer and an action plan.

Don't let it drag out...
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      01-10-2012, 09:08 PM   #87
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so is this problem with earlier 08's? I really hope this isn't the beginning of the end.. for what I thought would be a pretty reliable motor.

Although, haven't heard of many complaining of this, just in this thread.
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      01-10-2012, 10:42 PM   #88
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Quote:
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so is this problem with earlier 08's? I really hope this isn't the beginning of the end.. for what I thought would be a pretty reliable motor.

Although, haven't heard of many complaining of this, just in this thread.
Which is why the thread exists.

Most people probably wouldn't notice it...
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