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      01-01-2012, 01:15 PM   #23
klammer
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Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
I still debate this back and forth in my head. Hearing you guys talk about the satisfaction of nailing a perfect heel-toe downshift as you come into a corner at speed makes me want to drive a manual on the track so badly (I had a manual 330Ci and manual 545i back in the day, but never tracked them). But then I wonder if the manual isn't becoming a lost art and/or anachronistic when I see in-car footage of current race cars running sequential shifters, whether they be 911 Cup cars or LMP cars.

On the one hand, I think people have to get over the idea of a DCT as an "automatic." It by no means is an automatic, at least the way I drive it. I NEVER drive it in automatic mode, even on the street. To me, an automatic is a fluid-coupled slush box that upshifts on its own into the highest gear as soon as possible, leaving you coasting into a corner, and the transmission then having to kick-down to accelerate out of the turn. I despise this. I think of the DCT as a manual that is simply computer-controlled for clutch activation, and that gives the added "cheating" benefit of rev-matching on downshifts.

Sounds like I'm in the DCT camp. And then, I think of a car like the Nissan GT-R, and the concept drives me nuts. I think of that as a car that a complete nincompoop could drive around a track quickly, because it does absolutely everything for you. Not only does it have an automated manual transmission, but it has AWD and computer-controlled chassis dynamics to the nth degree, so that you can throw the car into the corner totally out of shape, and it sorts everything out. No challenge or high degree of skill involved. (Flame suit on) But then this line of thinking is in total disagreement to my defense of driving a DCT on the track.

Basically, I'm confused.:

Little Stig on my left shoulder, whispering in my ear: "Traditional H-pattern manual transmissions are going the way of the Dodo. Paddle shifters and sequential manuals are the ever-increasing present and future of racing. Stick shift? Might as well also hand-crank your car like a Model T and use gas lamps instead of headlights..."

Little Stig on my right shoulder, whispering in my ear: "You're 41 years old. It's unlikely you're headed to a pro racing career. Trackdays are about fun and involvement with the car, not shaving that last hundredth of a second off your lap time because a DCT is faster around the track. Perfect your heel-toe technique and experience the mechanical connection with the car. Nissan GT-R? Jerry Lewis could drive that around Watkins Glen and set a nice lap time..."

I need a nap.
Well put.
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      01-01-2012, 01:21 PM   #24
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I'm just going to leave this here:

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      01-01-2012, 01:23 PM   #25
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I'm just going to leave this here:

I have DCT and after watching this vid I have 6mt envy lol
Though I think those people lined up on the side are crazy
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      01-01-2012, 01:37 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
Sounds like I'm in the DCT camp. And then, I think of a car like the Nissan GT-R, and the concept drives me nuts. I think of that as a car that a complete nincompoop could drive around a track quickly, because it does absolutely everything for you. Not only does it have an automated manual transmission, but it has AWD and computer-controlled chassis dynamics to the nth degree, so that you can throw the car into the corner totally out of shape, and it sorts everything out. No challenge or high degree of skill involved. (Flame suit on) But then this line of thinking is in total disagreement to my defense of driving a DCT on the track.
True about the electric nannies on the GT-R and many other cars. But I can't say those people walk away as satisfied or learn as much as someone driving a car without those features.

As you gain skill and speed, I think those nannies really hinder you in advancing.

DCT is very different from an automatic. There is still an active thought process in shifting. You still have to be in the right gear...just minus the foot footwork.
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      01-01-2012, 02:36 PM   #27
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In terms of sheer numbers i can offer only my own anecdotal evidence: Most of the E90

[Edited to add: argh! app fail!]

To recap what was lost: Most of the E90/92 M3s I've seen at the track are 6MT. I have DCT and no regrets. But DCT is the only thing that would tempt me from manual, especially for a tracking car. For example, I would not even look at any earlier M3 that's not manual. But I'm maybe unusual in that most of my cars have been stick.
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      01-01-2012, 02:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sevens.com View Post
I have DCT and after watching this vid I have 6mt envy lol
Though I think those people lined up on the side are crazy
Great video for sure but remember that it is from the 80's.Audi was developing electronically operated clutch's so all the driver had to do was left brake and move the shift lever to go quickAudi & Porsche also tried DCT gearbox's in this time period but the electronics were not there yet to make them reliable enough to use.
In present time virtually all open class rally cars run dog box flat shift gearbox's where the clutch is only used for starting and with the anti lag sytems that keep the engine on boost,the deft footwork shown my Rohrl is almost an art of the past.That being said great Rally drivers are still almost God like in their abilities.
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      01-01-2012, 08:21 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
You haven't lived until you enter an off camber turn at speed in third clenching onto the steering wheel with a vise grip left hand (no harness) as you have to shift with your right hand as you run out of rpm.

I'm sure there are plenty of folks on here that can relate. I look forward to it.

6mt is so much fun, albeit slower than an equal driver with DCT. However, DCT doesn't make you Seena.

I ran a DCT M3 at VIR and had a blast, next time I'd like to run a 6MT.

I really enjoy rev matching and heel-toeing, so I'm a sucker for rowing the gears.

Home track requires 2nd through 5th with speeds between 40mph - 156mph.
Amen brother.
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      01-01-2012, 10:29 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piloto View Post
I'm just going to leave this here:

Holy footwork, Batman! Ahh, Walter... Heel-toeing AND left-foot braking to balance/position the car. Stupendous.

He's the Michael Jackson of rally driving (minus the drug use, pet chimp, and interest in young boys, I presume...)
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      01-01-2012, 10:30 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
True about the electric nannies on the GT-R and many other cars. But I can't say those people walk away as satisfied or learn as much as someone driving a car without those features.

As you gain skill and speed, I think those nannies really hinder you in advancing.

DCT is very different from an automatic. There is still an active thought process in shifting. You still have to be in the right gear...just minus the foot footwork.
I agree. I agree. I agree.
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      01-03-2012, 05:30 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
However, for people who aren't used to heel-toe, rev-match, double-clutch, etc., it is a whole lot of work to do when you're already faced with a lot of things to do. I was sitting in my friend's car, and it was almost dangerous in the ride along that I got: since he's incapable of all of the above, he'd just drop a gear, let off the clutch, get the synchros to do the work, and then get around the corner. Problem is, he'd sometimes do this too late going into a corner, and it'd really upset the balance of the car when cornering, since the car jerks. Thank God for WRX all-wheel tech.
That sounds a lot like me in my R32. I've been working on my heel-toe as much as I can, but since the M3 is my DD, it's not easy. I'm just not sure if I'll ever have enough chance for street or track use to really master heel-toe, hence my future track car is DCT.
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      01-03-2012, 09:34 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
That sounds a lot like me in my R32. I've been working on my heel-toe as much as I can, but since the M3 is my DD, it's not easy. I'm just not sure if I'll ever have enough chance for street or track use to really master heel-toe, hence my future track car is DCT.
I found that once you get good at heel-toe downshifting on the street then its WAY easier at the track.

On the street, you aren't pushing the brake pedal all the way down so the accelerator is still much lower than the brake pedal. Make modulating the throttle more difficult. Unlike at the track, you'll have the brake pedal pressed down much further so the brake pedal is almost even with the throttle, makes the blip much, much easier.
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      01-19-2012, 11:09 PM   #34
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number of shifts depends on the track layout. Most HPDE beginners are told that they shift too much, and this takes away from concentration of learning the lines.
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      01-20-2012, 12:46 AM   #35
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number of shifts depends on the track layout. Most HPDE beginners are told that they shift too much, and this takes away from concentration of learning the lines.
I did an entire year at my home track driving the track in 3rd gear. I wasn't a lot slower than anyone else, but I got to focus on lines, braking, transitions, and corner exits without worrying about shifting.

Simplifying the driving this way was a tactic I learned from a golf pro I learned from: he joined the students for a round at the end of the group's lessons with a 5 iron and a putter. He shot par.
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      01-20-2012, 08:18 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I did an entire year at my home track driving the track in 3rd gear. I wasn't a lot slower than anyone else, but I got to focus on lines, braking, transitions, and corner exits without worrying about shifting.

Simplifying the driving this way was a tactic I learned from a golf pro I learned from: he joined the students for a round at the end of the group's lessons with a 5 iron and a putter. He shot par.
This is a good strategy and one I use with my students especially if they have no heel toe experience. Always best to get the lines, braking points etc. down first and work on shifting after there is a comfort level.
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      01-20-2012, 11:31 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I did an entire year at my home track driving the track in 3rd gear. I wasn't a lot slower than anyone else, but I got to focus on lines, braking, transitions, and corner exits without worrying about shifting.

Simplifying the driving this way was a tactic I learned from a golf pro I learned from: he joined the students for a round at the end of the group's lessons with a 5 iron and a putter. He shot par.
So true...I usually drive my first 2 sessions in the weekend in one or maybe 2 gears. The only place it kind of hurts my speed is coming out of slower corners. While I start off kind of slow I'm usually one of the faster cars by the end of every weekend I've been to.
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      02-24-2012, 12:29 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by piloto
I'm just going to leave this here:

Not sure which is more impressive, his driving or that background music.
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