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      12-15-2011, 10:59 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
IMO, MPG is one of the few weaknesses of the M3 as a daily driver. Not so bad here but I definitely felt the pain during euro delivery...$160 to fill up from a 1/4 tank.

That's the one area where the Vette and Caymna/Boxter have the M3 beat.
I think there must be something wrong with your $160.00 number to fill up with a 1/4 tank left in your car.

Tank capacity is 16.6 US Galons that equals 62.84 Litre so let us assume you filled 3/4 of the remaining tank that be around 47.5 Litre if you paid $160.00 for that fill up then they charged you $3.40 / Litre. $3.40 US = 2.60 Euro ... a bit high for gas wherever you tanked they screwed you when the average gas price in Europe is 1.397 to 1.459 Euro.

Where did you tank and are you sure your tank was not empty?
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      12-15-2011, 11:04 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You run at that RPM even on lower speed surface streets or rural highways (like 45mhp/55mph limits)?

Or just on the expressway where the minimum achievable RPM is dictated directly by your speed?
Highway driving speed limit 100 KM/Hr (62 Miles/Hr). Traveling around 115 KM to 120 KM (71 to 75 MPH) with the traffic flow ... flat highway no hills. At that speed and the occasional overtaking of 18 wheelers I average the quoted RPM range and fuel consumption.
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      12-15-2011, 11:51 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Rolf-Dieter View Post
I think there must be something wrong with your $160.00 number to fill up with a 1/4 tank left in your car.

Tank capacity is 16.6 US Galons that equals 62.84 Litre so let us assume you filled 3/4 of the remaining tank that be around 47.5 Litre if you paid $160.00 for that fill up then they charged you $3.40 / Litre. $3.40 US = 2.60 Euro ... a bit high for gas wherever you tanked they screwed you when the average gas price in Europe is 1.397 to 1.459 Euro.

Where did you tank and are you sure your tank was not empty?
Might have been less than a 1/4 full. It was 6 months ago in Germany. I just know I have a CC charge for ~$160 for gas...er...petrol.
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      12-15-2011, 01:08 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Might have been less than a 1/4 full. It was 6 months ago in Germany. I just know I have a CC charge for ~$160 for gas...er...petrol.
Must have either been well under 1/4 tank or an expensive station. During my mid-May ED trip, most of my fillups were around ~$130. Still a pretty big ouch compared to home fillups of around half that.

Rolf, I think your figures for German gas are off for super premium, or at least off from what they were when we were there. I'm thinking I paid in the ballpark of 1.70. Diesel might have been close to what you were quoting, but super premium (98 octane) sure wasn't.
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      12-15-2011, 02:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
Must have either been well under 1/4 tank or an expensive station. During my mid-May ED trip, most of my fillups were around ~$130. Still a pretty big ouch compared to home fillups of around half that.

Rolf, I think your figures for German gas are off for super premium, or at least off from what they were when we were there. I'm thinking I paid in the ballpark of 1.70. Diesel might have been close to what you were quoting, but super premium (98 octane) sure wasn't.
I'm pretty sure it was the time I filled up at a station on the Autobahn near the Nurburgring. I wanna say gas was closer to 2euro per liter when I was there in June. Then the exchange rate was extra crappy. I drove about 1600 miles and my fuel costs were
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      12-15-2011, 03:02 PM   #28
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Of course a taller gear helps in 7th as it keeps the rpms down and when there is no acceleration there is no such thing as "bogging" an engine down. It takes very minimal rpms to keep an engine going in a constant velocity such as highway cruising, however it will make 7th pretty much useless for actually accelerating which would be ok with me. Doesnt bother me either way but it would help. And yes staying at 65-70 does a lot for milage cmopared to 75 and above
I actually use 7th for accelerating quite a bit so I'm glad it's not a stupid highway gear.


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With this, I will put my trust in the BMW engineers. I hear you but if you get a gear that is too tall...you'll have to downshift for every little hill...not a problem for the DCT in D mode though.

I would like the option to shut off 4 cylinders to save some fuel...wonder what the MPG gain would be?
Agree with the first part - This is a performance car that has been engineered to perform while having a balance function and efficiency. It's not an econo box though so I don't understand why everyone is so concerned about it!

My iDrive is reading 6.8 MPG right now and I'm fine with that.
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      12-15-2011, 03:09 PM   #29
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...Yes and no. There's an optimal RPM that trades consumption at a steady speed vs. consumption while accelerating or while under load changes. We could look at the extreme as an example - if you put in a gear to let the car go 70 mph at idle RPM the car would bog terribly on the slightest elevation change, grossly decreasing efficiency. In ther words the consumption vs. RPM curve is not linear.
This is mostly incorrect, I think. In point of fact higher gearing (therefore lowering rpm at cruise) nets you better mileage, because there is less overall friction with reduced rpm, and more importantly, pumping losses are reduced. Pumping losses are associated with manifold vacuum (meaning when a cylinder is firing, power is lost because it must drive another piston down on the intake stroke against a vaccuum), and these losses increase when an engine is making more power at cruise, because you use less throttle to maintain a given speed, resulting in higher intake vacuum. When you use a taller gear, rpm is reduced, power is reduced, and you have to use more throttle to maintain a given speed. Therefore pumping losses are reduced.

An M3 with Vette gearing (say, 1500-1600 rpm at cruise) would be a pig out on the highway - but it would get a good deal better mileage. BMW has been saying since the eighties that to drive for best mileage, use max throttle and minimum rpm through the gears. The M3 would get best highway mileage if you had to use full throttle just to keep it going - but of course it would be more or less undriveable because you'd have to downshift for every hill or any puff of headwind.

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Did BMW hit the sweet spot? Maybe, maybe not. I suppose that depends on many factors, some of which will vary between driver, environment, etc. My guess is that they spend a lot of time on this stuff and probably arrived at the current gearing after much experimentation, data collection, and deliberation...
They said the hell with mileage, and went for a strong and responsive engine at cruise.

Bruce

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      12-15-2011, 03:14 PM   #30
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This is mostly incorrect. In point of fact higher gearing (therefore lowering rpm at cruise) nets you better mileage, because there is less overall friction with reduced rpm, and more importantly, pumping losses are reduced. Pumping losses are associated with manifold vacuum (meaning when a cylinder is firing, power is lost because it must drive another piston down on the intake stroke against a vaccuum), and these losses increase when an engine is making more power, because you use less throttle to maintain a given speed, resulting in higher intake vacuum. When you use a taller gear, rpm is reduced, power is reduced, and you have to use more throttle to maintain a given speed. Therefore pumping losses are reduced.

An M3 with Vette gearing (say, 1500-1600 rpm at cruise) would be a pig out on the highway - but it would get a good deal better mileage. BMW has been saying since the eighties that to drive for best mileage, use max throttle and minimum rpm through the gears. The M3 would get best highway mileage if you had to use full throttle just to keep it going - but of course it would be more or less undriveable because you'd have to downshift for every hill or any puff of headwind.



They said the hell with mileage, and went for a strong and responsive engine at cruise.

Bruce
I wouldn't say its a strong and responsive engine at cruise. You can hit the throttle in 7th at 75 mph on hte freeway and you barely accelerate and thus have to downshift for any signifigant forward move, therefore their choice in ratio for 7 leaves much to desired. Kind of the worst of both worlds. Not tall enough for decent gas savings but not short enough to be useable
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      12-15-2011, 03:23 PM   #31
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I wouldn't say its a strong and responsive engine at cruise...Not tall enough for decent gas savings but not short enough to be useable
Keep in mind, BMW isn't just tuning the M3's gearing for the US, a fact that seems to escape some here. At typical US highway speeds, 7th may not be as usable, but I recall it being fairly usable at typical autobahn speeds, at least in the unlimited sections.
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      12-15-2011, 04:21 PM   #32
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I wouldn't say its a strong and responsive engine at cruise. You can hit the throttle in 7th at 75 mph on hte freeway and you barely accelerate and thus have to downshift for any signifigant forward move, therefore their choice in ratio for 7 leaves much to desired. Kind of the worst of both worlds. Not tall enough for decent gas savings but not short enough to be useable
Huh. Never actually tested the auto for top-gear responsiveness, now that I think about it. I defer to your experience.

The six speed M3 won't blow you away in top gear - but it'll certainly blow a Grand Sport Vette away - or even a Z06. They don't get moving in sixth until somewhere near 100.

Edit: Didn't test the auto for top-gear acceleration because it'll kick down right smartly, if memory serves.

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      12-15-2011, 04:49 PM   #33
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Keep in mind, BMW isn't just tuning the M3's gearing for the US, a fact that seems to escape some here. At typical US highway speeds, 7th may not be as usable, but I recall it being fairly usable at typical autobahn speeds, at least in the unlimited sections.
ugg-that is a really good point that I completely failed to think about-good call! Although more M's are sold in the US so it would make more sense to "tune them for us" in that sense. But yes going 120, 7th may be a bit sharper.

I mean no final gear with an engine that makes its power at 7k rpms is going to give you a punch necessarily.
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      12-15-2011, 05:05 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Might have been less than a 1/4 full. It was 6 months ago in Germany. I just know I have a CC charge for ~$160 for gas...er...petrol.
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I'm pretty sure it was the time I filled up at a station on the Autobahn near the Nurburgring. I wanna say gas was closer to 2euro per liter when I was there in June. Then the exchange rate was extra crappy. I drove about 1600 miles and my fuel costs were
My apologies the table look up I used was indeed not for the premium gas sorry ...

It just reenforces my decision last month to not do the ED next year and take the train ... glad I found my 2012 M3 at a local dealership (2 hour drive from my house) last month.
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      12-15-2011, 05:33 PM   #35
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Agree with the first part - This is a performance car that has been engineered to perform while having a balance function and efficiency. It's not an econo box though so I don't understand why everyone is so concerned about it!

My iDrive is reading 6.8 MPG right now and I'm fine with that.
I wonder why they even bothered with stop/start. It would have been nice if that would have gotten the M3 out of gas guzzler territory.

But...anyone buying an M3 should not be surprised about the poor fuel economy. But 6.8 MPG? You're an ozone hater!
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      12-15-2011, 05:49 PM   #36
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I wonder why they even bothered with stop/start. It would have been nice if that would have gotten the M3 out of gas guzzler territory.
I'm suspecting while it didn't help in the US with the current (2011) gas regs, it is helping in other countries, and it's easier to just make it standard for all M3s rather than build a specific US that doesn't include it. I know some have mentioned that future EPA tests will start accounting for this feature, so maybe it will help in 2012 tests (where overall BMW fleet averages will need to go up), and BMW decided to just start including it while making other changes.
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      12-15-2011, 06:33 PM   #37
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I'm suspecting while it didn't help in the US with the current (2011) gas regs, it is helping in other countries, and it's easier to just make it standard for all M3s rather than build a specific US that doesn't include it. I know some have mentioned that future EPA tests will start accounting for this feature, so maybe it will help in 2012 tests (where overall BMW fleet averages will need to go up), and BMW decided to just start including it while making other changes.
I mentioned that the EPA will account for it in the future. I find its more of a gimmick. Here in TX, I would not turn on stop/start in the summer when its 100+ degrees outside.

So I hope future models come up with A/C that is not belt driven.
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      12-15-2011, 06:59 PM   #38
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taller 7th wouldn't help much. I have a 6MT and cruising at legal hwy speeds I'm already at 2100-2300 rpms, anything below 2000 rpm and the car will be easy to stall in case of a sudden slow down. also changing all gears ratios will have to be considered when changing 1 gear, so you may be changing the acceleration characteristic of the car when you do this.

Start/Stop def gets figured in the road test portion of the tests, and it easy and cheap to install as others have mentioned.
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      12-15-2011, 07:01 PM   #39
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Its kind of a win-win to have start/stop features as long as it is able to be turned off like it is. For those who want to cut down a few gallons of gas a year than they can have at it. The company gets to lower their fleet mpg (however barely) and everyone is happy. Mine is off and never will be on. Tried it the other day again and was horrible. Light turned green and had to wait for the fucking engine to re-start! stupid with dct.
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      12-15-2011, 07:08 PM   #40
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Its kind of a win-win to have start/stop features as long as it is able to be turned off like it is. For those who want to cut down a few gallons of gas a year than they can have at it. The company gets to lower their fleet mpg (however barely) and everyone is happy. Mine is off and never will be on. Tried it the other day again and was horrible. Light turned green and had to wait for the fucking engine to re-start! stupid with dct.
lucky for US cars, the default is off, Euro/Asia cars default is on.
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      12-15-2011, 07:15 PM   #41
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lucky for US cars, the default is off, Euro/Asia cars default is on.
Kinda blows but not a huge deal. I get in my car, hit the M button, hit the heated seats and then I am off. Not bad to just hit the button quickly when getting in. Not great but better than having to go into idrive everytime I would imagine.

Interesting how they know americans would not tolerate that! We like maximum gas guzzlage
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      12-16-2011, 08:15 AM   #42
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This is mostly incorrect, I think. In point of fact higher gearing (therefore lowering rpm at cruise) nets you better mileage, because there is less overall friction with reduced rpm, and more importantly, pumping losses are reduced. Pumping losses are associated with manifold vacuum (meaning when a cylinder is firing, power is lost because it must drive another piston down on the intake stroke against a vaccuum), and these losses increase when an engine is making more power at cruise, because you use less throttle to maintain a given speed, resulting in higher intake vacuum. When you use a taller gear, rpm is reduced, power is reduced, and you have to use more throttle to maintain a given speed. Therefore pumping losses are reduced.
I understand what you are saying above, Bruce. But I am convinced there must be more to the story. If you use a tall enough gear (ratio approaches 1:infinity), you could literally overpower the engine entirely. At this point, even if you floor it, you are just going to burn gas with no appreciable effect on the car's velocity. You wouldn't even be able to keep the car in motion. In the scenario, every single bit of fuel burnt is a waste. I realize this is an extreme example, but as you make the gear taller and taller, you approach this "dead-lock" situation. There simply must be a breaking point here. The formula simply cannot be that efficiency goes to infinity as gear ratio goes to infinity. It just doesn't make sense. There's got to be a drop off point, and I have got to believe it is gradual. You see what I mean?

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They said the hell with mileage, and went for a strong and responsive engine at cruise.
I agree with Ateam on this one - it's not really strong or responsive at all. They really expect you to downshift to accelerate. But that aside, like I say, you still at least need the car to be able to keep itself at speed.
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      12-16-2011, 12:07 PM   #43
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Here in TX, I would not turn on stop/start in the summer when its 100+ degrees outside.

So I hope future models come up with A/C that is not belt driven.
Stop/start already accounts for A/C usage, so you don't need to worry about it. While I haven't tested in those temps, I know I've had it restart in the summer as soon as the car starts warming up, and I suspect (owner's manual may say for sure), if the temp is high enough it won't even stop. I know if it's cold enough (< 38F) it won't stop.

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Tried it the other day again and was horrible. Light turned green and had to wait for the fucking engine to re-start! stupid with dct.
Do you have 6MT or DCT? I agree for 6MT it's more of a pain, but with DCT, once you see the light is ready to change, just take your foot off the brake. The car won't start moving and it will restart. Also, practically all of my restarts using stop/start have been really fast. Even when I don't preanticipate (which I usually do), it starts fast enough that I really don't feel like I'm holding things up.

I guess I feel like the resident stop/start apologist. I find it works rather well with DCT, and it does save some gas. YMMV.
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