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      06-20-2007, 11:43 AM   #23
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I read the article too, I'm not impressed by the TQ the engine is producing, rather low IMO. I'm sure its fun to rag out to the high rpm's but the TQ is pretty shitty.

The 335 stock has more TQ and tuned has WAY more TQ and similar HP for much less $$.

I seriously doubt most purchasers will see the 7000rpm+ range in daily driving when you actually need to get this car moving.........you know to merge?

I am by no means saying the M3 is not a bad ass car, it is, but the engine is too little too late IMO.
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      06-20-2007, 11:56 AM   #24
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I read the article too, I'm not impressed by the TQ the engine is producing, rather low IMO. I'm sure its fun to rag out to the high rpm's but the TQ is pretty shitty.

The 335 stock has more TQ and tuned has WAY more TQ and similar HP for much less $$.

I seriously doubt most purchasers will see the 7000rpm+ range in daily driving when you actually need to get this car moving.........you know to merge?

I am by no means saying the M3 is not a bad ass car, it is, but the engine is too little too late IMO.
The same agrument could be made for the previous generation m3 vs some other larger displacement higher torque car. Do you need to rev a e46 m3 to 7000 rpms to merge? The new M3 is going to have much more torque available at all rpms.

I'm not sure if there are any dynos out yet but I would guess that stock for stock peak torque will be pretty similar with the m3 having much more on tap above 5 thousand rpms and much less below 3k. For most people(myself included, why I'm purchasing a 335) the 3.0tt may be a better daily driver motor; but for the people who the m3 is targeted for(hard core enthusiasts/track) all that power in the upper rev range is going to make it a much better option.
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      06-20-2007, 12:08 PM   #25
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The M will be much more track 'prepped' (obviously). Pragmatically speaking the 335 will do almost everything the M will up to its (335) limit. The M has the superlatives.

GM is coming out with superb powerplants...and I underscore powerplants. Their package isn't as nice (obviously) but 505hp certainly says a good bit and IMHO nothing sounds as good as a pushrod 8 wailing.:rocks:
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      06-20-2007, 12:10 PM   #26
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Well, let me clarify by saying that I opted for a 24 month lease on my 335i, because I plan on purchasing the new M3.

I personally enjoy high red lines, when I'm driving on pedestrian road ways, because frankly, it's fun.

However, again, NO ONE that is a serious track devotee is going to purchase an M3 for the track. I'm sure there will be owners that use their cars for dual purpose, but not that often. The point is that the car is not suited for the track, it's too heavy.

So, while the engine is a gem, it's in the wrong shell and there's no point in discussing it's track orientation.
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      06-20-2007, 12:33 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniz View Post
I read the article too, I'm not impressed by the TQ the engine is producing, rather low IMO. I'm sure its fun to rag out to the high rpm's but the TQ is pretty shitty.

The 335 stock has more TQ and tuned has WAY more TQ and similar HP for much less $$.

I seriously doubt most purchasers will see the 7000rpm+ range in daily driving when you actually need to get this car moving.........you know to merge?

I am by no means saying the M3 is not a bad ass car, it is, but the engine is too little too late IMO.

We should keep in mind the design criteria that BMW governs itself by. First and foremost is engine displacement, big taxes for big displacements.

Everyone thought the M5 / M7 V10 had too little torque when when the specs were first released but the quiet little revolution that BMW is leading is the drivetrain innovation.
  1. Keep the drivetrain light - else you get monsterous weights like the AMGs and more power is needed to beat the rotating mass required to support big torque. Light weight engines allow it to rev through the powerband faster (less inertia to fight).
  2. Close ratio gearboxes - in the vid attached, the Z06 dies in 5th gear. Gearing with an optimal powerband is way the M6 can beat cars like Gallardo. If I were in the market for a new M3, I would be waiting for the 7 speed box
Also the boss of M division saw the number of people who actually tracked the cars to be really low and that people didn't want to give up the luxuries. So BMW M is just buidling the cars that the customers want.

The M3 will be doing just fine......it is going to shame the RS4 in a straight line and around the track.

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      06-20-2007, 12:50 PM   #28
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It's painfully obvious that you didn't read the article or my posts so exactly what are you arguing about?
Fair enough, my copy of Roundel is still wrapped in plastic since it arrived within days of the new C&D and R&T. I am a regular on the M3 board, however, so I'm very doubtful if the article explains anything new that hasn't already been covered repeatedly.

However, my point is the engine specs are disappointing from all perspectives, circuit driving included, IMHO.
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      06-20-2007, 12:52 PM   #29
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in the vid attached, the Z06 dies in 5th gear.
Errr the Z06 will run away from an M6 on nearly any road race circuit you can name.
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      06-20-2007, 12:54 PM   #30
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Errr the Z06 will run away from an M6 on nearly any road race circuit you can name.

Sure but we are talking about straightline performance here. The M3 (using the M6 as a proxy) will do just fine against the competition in both straightline and curvy stuff.
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      06-20-2007, 03:10 PM   #31
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Sure but we are talking about straightline performance here. The M3 (using the M6 as a proxy) will do just fine against the competition in both straightline and curvy stuff.
Against a 600HP CTS-V a few mods away from the 700HP the same engine will put out in the Z07??
Against a 480HP GT-R a chip away from 550+?
Against the 580HP from the Audi RS5/6?

Are you even aware of what is coming down the pipe from anyone BUT M?

Did you know the official BMW Nordshliefe time (8:13) is 4 seconds slower than an RS4 with R-comps, and way slower than that of the GT-R (promised to be faster than a 911 TT)?
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      06-20-2007, 03:40 PM   #32
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      06-20-2007, 03:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Against a 600HP CTS-V a few mods away from the 700HP the same engine will put out in the Z07??
The 2009 CTS-V (there is not going to be a 2008 CTS-V) is probably going to debut with 500hp.

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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Against a 480HP GT-R a chip away from 550+?
Will be a hot car if it ever shows up here, but will probably be more in the $80K realm. And maybe it's just me, but I get tired of hearing about this imminent arrival of the Skyline.

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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Against the 580HP from the Audi RS5/6?
Latest word is that the RS5 is going to use an NA V8. Also, the M3 and RS6 do not compete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Are you even aware of what is coming down the pipe from anyone BUT M?
The AMG C63 Merc. is the competitor that interests me most. Mercedes seems to be shifting a little more towards the BMW philosophy with their latest AMG cars. There's also the Lexus IS-F but it'll probably come in overweight and lean towards the luxury side.

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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Did you know the official BMW Nordshliefe time (8:13) is 4 seconds slower than an RS4 with R-comps, and way slower than that of the GT-R (promised to be faster than a 911 TT)?
I didn't know there was an official Nordschliefe time for the E92 M3. I believe the only time posted for the new M3 is very preliminary and unofficial.
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      06-20-2007, 04:32 PM   #34
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The 2009 CTS-V (there is not going to be a 2008 CTS-V) is probably going to debut with 500hp.
I've seen rumors that it might offer the supercharged version of the Ls7 seen in the current Z06s. That kinda surprises me as the base engine would be more than enough to have it beat most of it's competition.
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      06-20-2007, 05:50 PM   #35
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The S54 found in the E46 M3 was special and is still a great powerplant...I'm not so impressed with the new M3 engine. The new M3 will carry a loftier price than the E46 and will be outgunned by most of the competition. Why do you think BMW rates the N54 at 300hp instead of where it really should be which is around 333hp or so? I love my E46 M3 but I would have rather seen BMW keep the S54 and work on putting the M on a diet. I will be more than happy to beat down E90 M3 owners in my 'lowly' 335.
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      06-20-2007, 05:56 PM   #36
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I've seen rumors that it might offer the supercharged version of the Ls7 seen in the current Z06s. That kinda surprises me as the base engine would be more than enough to have it beat most of it's competition.
Only twice has GM made cars that were faster than the BASE corvette. That was with the TT Trans Am in 1989 and the GNX in the 80s. Both these cars were limited production. The CTS-V will have at most 500 hp, there's no way they'd make it even close to a z06.
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      06-20-2007, 06:18 PM   #37
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Reality check

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Originally Posted by derryck View Post
The S54 found in the E46 M3 was special and is still a great powerplant...I'm not so impressed with the new M3 engine. The new M3 will carry a loftier price than the E46 and will be outgunned by most of the competition. Why do you think BMW rates the N54 at 300hp instead of where it really should be which is around 333hp or so? I love my E46 M3 but I would have rather seen BMW keep the S54 and work on putting the M on a diet. I will be more than happy to beat down E90 M3 owners in my 'lowly' 335.
The S54 was at the end of its line. No room for extra bore, piston speeds too high, etc., etc. Totally maxed out. Not way to compete against 911, RS4 and AM Vantage without the new V8. Keeping the S54 would have been a terrible decision from an engineering AND marketing perspective.

"Beat down" E90 M3 owners in your 335. OMG get real. Maybe in a drag only, maybe to 60 or 100 with a Vishnu tune that is not even available yet. You are in fantasy land on this last statement.
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      06-20-2007, 06:38 PM   #38
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Corrections, comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Against a 600HP CTS-V a few mods away from the 700HP the same engine will put out in the Z07??
Against a 480HP GT-R a chip away from 550+?
Against the 580HP from the Audi RS5/6?

Are you even aware of what is coming down the pipe from anyone BUT M?

Did you know the official BMW Nordshliefe time (8:13) is 4 seconds slower than an RS4 with R-comps, and way slower than that of the GT-R (promised to be faster than a 911 TT)?
  • 8:12 (not 8:13) was an UNOFFICIAL time posted on forums and posted on BMW of Canada, since removed.
  • RS4 time of 8:09 was basically with race tires. This will give you about a 15 second advantage with this single upgrade from top end street legal tires. I'd be willing to bet we see a better time than 8:12 officially from BMW or Sport Auto magazine. Furthermore I'd also be willing to bet with similar tires to the Audis this car will easily and substantially break the "magic" 8 minute barrier. Heck lot's of us think it will break or get darn close with its stock street tires!
  • To all those "chirping" about the new M3 (or any other generation) not being a true track/race car": DUH! Of course it isn't. The car has always been about a race BRED car using race technologies adapted to a sporty, civil and luxurious street car. M3 has always been about the best of both worlds which requires great engineering and design skill to appropriately balance and COMPROMISE in the design. Don't care much if you blast me for driving my new M3 to Starbucks, the grins it'll give me on the canyons, twisties and track will be plently for me.
  • Finally in reply to "there's no point in discussing it's track orientation". Maybe it is semantics, but I'll have to disagree. Sure the new M is a bit heavy, but heck, all street cars are heavier than they should be for pure track use, that is only painfully obvious. Do you know where BMW tests all of its cars and that they have simulators that can run a full chassis around a particular famous TRACK that starts with the letter "N" in the lab (I'm sure you did, just emphasizing this...). This car, with it's unofficial N'ring times has already bested some very capable dual use and very sporty cars, look at the lists of what it has already bested with it's unofficial N'ring time. Calling it completely non track oriented is simply neither fair nor accurate.
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      06-20-2007, 06:57 PM   #39
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I can honestly say that it's quite impressive, but it actually swayed me to think that the 225i's i-6 is a better baseline powerplant.

From what you guys report, the i-6 stays buttery smooth with remapping, delivers more power, and is more driveable.

Who would have thought such nonsense?


OMG

<--- or a link. Whats the point of discussing NOTHING...?
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      06-20-2007, 07:06 PM   #40
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I would have rather seen BMW keep the S54 and work on putting the M on a diet.
I totally agree with this...which is why I picked up a Z4M Coupe.
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      06-20-2007, 07:18 PM   #41
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Fair enough, my copy of Roundel is still wrapped in plastic since it arrived within days of the new C&D and R&T. I am a regular on the M3 board, however, so I'm very doubtful if the article explains anything new that hasn't already been covered repeatedly.

However, my point is the engine specs are disappointing from all perspectives, circuit driving included, IMHO.
You deal realize that the //M can get to it's power quicker than most cars. Meaning even if it has lower HP #'s or torque, it can rev faster, and with more gears it can get threw the rev ban faster.

Just a thought. The engine is awsome from a stitistical point of view and offers alot of agility, without ever firing one up.

The question remains.... why is the car so heavy? And for the cost, isn't the new Cayaman S a better track car ..?

Problem with the Cayman is that is a tad noisy and a shitty stereo, the //M is more refined and (typically) quiter, er luxury. But, BMW's new interior design sucks... BMW's pushing this Oracle sailboat racing thing toooo much.

So, is there still an arguement of wether or not the //M is track bred..? It's undeniable! Is it worth $10k more than the 335 for "average Joe" street racing and lightstop flogging...?

Thats thee arguement. :rocks:






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      06-20-2007, 08:21 PM   #42
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Value

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Is it worth $10k more than the 335 for "average Joe" street racing and lightstop flogging...?
Clearly not, but that also won't stop folks buying it for this exact purpose, heck even for less aggressive use. They will not only buy them for themselves but also for their non-enthusiast kids, wife, etc.
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      06-20-2007, 08:59 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Against a 600HP CTS-V a few mods away from the 700HP the same engine will put out in the Z07??
Against a 480HP GT-R a chip away from 550+?
Against the 580HP from the Audi RS5/6?

Are you even aware of what is coming down the pipe from anyone BUT M?

Did you know the official BMW Nordshliefe time (8:13) is 4 seconds slower than an RS4 with R-comps, and way slower than that of the GT-R (promised to be faster than a 911 TT)?

Sure.....
  • Is there any doubt the BMW can handle the Caddy around a race track?
  • GTR is more a 911 TT competitor and this should be a sub 8 minute car
  • RS6 - 580hp - M5 competitor and give the parasitic losses of Quattro I already have a bet the E60 M5 will be faster.....
So in the M3's class.....RS4, RS5 (using a tune RS4 engine), 911, SLK....other than the 911, the M3 stands pretty well.
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      06-20-2007, 09:01 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
Only twice has GM made cars that were faster than the BASE corvette. That was with the TT Trans Am in 1989 and the GNX in the 80s. Both these cars were limited production. The CTS-V will have at most 500 hp, there's no way they'd make it even close to a z06.
GNX


Agree with you...the Vette is top dog. GM is admitting that bring the Blue Devil has almost been as difficult as developing a new car.
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