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      12-05-2011, 06:06 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Agreed, but do we really keep any topic on target around here?

Back to that 6.8 0-60 time, really? That's disappointing, and furthers my argument that the lighter, less powerful, but similar power to weight Miata isn't far off the mark, since it's similarly (not) quick. Here's to hoping they're further along with that supercharger than they've let on.

The Miata doesn't have and never will have the same dd practicality of the Toyobaru. That's a major drawback.

See how far the commitment to get the best possible handling machine goes with this Toyobaru:

They opted for a supercharger instead of the typical turbo by today standards to completely avoid the lag in the throttle response at the expense of some fuel efficiency.
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      12-05-2011, 06:28 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
The Miata doesn't have and never will have the same dd practicality of the Toyobaru. That's a major drawback.

See how far the commitment to get the best possible handling machine goes with this Toyobaru:

They opted for a supercharger instead of the typical turbo by today standards to completely avoid the lag in the throttle response at the expense of some fuel efficiency.
Meh, if it was a hatch, not a notch back, I'd buy a little of that argument. I daily drove Miatae for years and never really felt that compromised, nor do I see a large trunk or easy storage in this thing.

I can't think of a single supercharged 4 banger that has been good to drive. Using Subaru as a partner and then bypassing their strength in turbocharging for a supercharger just screams of stupidity. We shall see, but I'm not holding my breath. Further, what does a supercharger have to do with a commitment to handling?

I'd suspect that the real go on this car will be aftermarket turbo kits, not the factory blower.
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      12-05-2011, 07:04 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Agreed, but do we really keep any topic on target around here?

Back to that 6.8 0-60 time, really? That's disappointing, and furthers my argument that the lighter, less powerful, but similar power to weight Miata isn't far off the mark, since it's similarly (not) quick. Here's to hoping they're further along with that supercharger than they've let on.
Yeah 6.8 seconds is 328i level, but I think people who buy this car will probably end up buying it just for the fun factor. Light, and nimble can sometimes be fun even if it isn't Corvette fast.
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      12-05-2011, 07:16 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
I've asked for a MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIP title won by the 911... the 24 Hours of Nurburgring is only a single race and the GTE Am is a secondary category for GTs (997 and F430) in the Le Mans Series, GTE Pro's being the main one and won by the F458.
Porsche won the Manufacturer's GT/GT2 class in the ALMS in 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, and 2009.

Also a GT3-RSR won the ALMS GT or GT2 driver's championship in 2005, 2006, and 2008, 2009, and 2010.

Should I continue?
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      12-06-2011, 05:28 AM   #181
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Porsche won the Manufacturer's GT/GT2 class in the ALMS in 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, and 2009.

Also a GT3-RSR won the ALMS GT or GT2 driver's championship in 2005, 2006, and 2008, 2009, and 2010.

Should I continue?
Please do!

Since the introduction of the BMW M3 (E92) GT2 and the Ferrari F458 Italia the 911 is no longer dominant among the GTs. Those victories in the ALMS only prove that the F430 - which was the contender from Ferrari - was and still is no match for the 997. The F458 is much better than the former F430. The same for BMW, the BMW M3 (E92) GT2 was introduced only in 2009 (after a two-year absence by the brand).

Just like in the GTE Am and GTE Pro categories, in the former - won by Porsche - the contender from Ferrari is the F430 whereas in the latter - won by Ferrari - the contender is the F458.

Those two cars raised the bar in the GTs class. The 911 is lagging behind. Period.

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 12-06-2011 at 07:06 AM.
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      12-06-2011, 05:39 AM   #182
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Meh, if it was a hatch, not a notch back, I'd buy a little of that argument. I daily drove Miatae for years and never really felt that compromised, nor do I see a large trunk or easy storage in this thing.
I am also a former Miata owner and it was my dd for 8 years many moons ago. The Toyobaru besides being a Coupe - the noise inside the Miata cabin could be unbearable at times at high speed - has much more storage room either from the trunk itself or from the back seats.


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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
I can't think of a single supercharged 4 banger that has been good to drive. Using Subaru as a partner and then bypassing their strength in turbocharging for a supercharger just screams of stupidity. We shall see, but I'm not holding my breath. Further, what does a supercharger have to do with a commitment to handling?
Man, this says it all... if you don't understand how the lack of turbo lag - which is absent with a supercharger - majorly influences the handling of a car you don't know what your talking about.
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      12-06-2011, 08:49 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Please do!

Since the introduction of the BMW M3 (E92) GT2 and the Ferrari F458 Italia the 911 is no longer dominant among the GTs. Those victories in the ALMS only prove that the F430 - which was the contender from Ferrari - was and still is no match for the 997. The F458 is much better than the former F430. The same for BMW, the BMW M3 (E92) GT2 was introduced only in 2009 (after a two-year absence by the brand).

Just like in the GTE Am and GTE Pro categories, in the former - won by Porsche - the contender from Ferrari is the F430 whereas in the latter - won by Ferrari - the contender is the F458.

Those two cars raised the bar in the GTs class. The 911 is lagging behind. Period.
Dear god, search for logic, you seem to have misplaced it.

No car has DOMINATED racing like the 911. A car that has a history since the 60's, with two wheelbase changes and one engine change (still the same number of cylinders, in the same layout though) has fully dominated sports car racing. How are the Ferrari 250 GTO, Aston DB6, BMW 3200CS and Shelby Cobra doing in FIA races?

What about Toyota or Subaru, how's their esteemed racing going?

The simple point is that in a thread about a Subura/Toyota joint venture, you seem to have stuck your head in the sand about what constitutes racing dominance. Drive around for a minute, the first 911 you see is that dominance. Ignore it if you want, it's still there and we all know it.
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      12-06-2011, 08:58 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Man, this says it all... if you don't understand how the lack of turbo lag - which is absent with a supercharger - majorly influences the handling of a car you don't know what your talking about.
You are a marketer's soggy wet dream. You had a Miata or two. Remind me, was Flying Miata doing superchargers or turbos? Did MazdaSpeed build a turbo or a supercharger? Sure, that crappy little Moss supercharger was cheap, but anyone that modified a Miata either coveted a turbo or an American V8, not the castaway blower from an SLK.

Toyota supercharged the MR2, then oops, dropped that and used a turbo later. Jaguar supercharged the XK and XJ, and again, dropped that and went to a turbo. AMG, same story.

Try this, name a few famous cars (you can even have the 30's, hint, Bentley Blower) that have superchargers. I'll take turbos, we'll see whose list is more significant.

As I said earlier, I've driven a handful of supercharged cars (including a Moss Miata) and all of them with small engines were less than fun to drive. The big V8's with blowers were fun, but likely would have been without a blower too. I've driven a lot more than a handful of turbos and nearly all are fun. Did some have lag that you could use an egg timer to record? Oh hell yeah, but were any of those modern, nope.

If Toyota had said they were using a non syncronized four speed to save weight, you'd be busy trying to tell us how double de-clutching was beautiful and how pure it was. Superchargers are dumb and out dated, if they weren't wouldn't it just make sense that someone, anyone, in the auto illetaratii was using one on an exotic?
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      12-06-2011, 10:01 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Dear god, search for logic, you seem to have misplaced it.

No car has DOMINATED racing like the 911. A car that has a history since the 60's, with two wheelbase changes and one engine change (still the same number of cylinders, in the same layout though) has fully dominated sports car racing.
No other brand has invested as much and still is so involved in the GTs motor racing like Porsche is... don't forget that and I'm not taking their credit either.

Please read:

Old time 911 - Porsche made a huge effort to make it more controllable!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
What about Toyota or Subaru, how's their esteemed racing going?
I think you misunderstood me... the point here is about handling not pro drivers, racing rules, specific tires suppliers and all that turns a team into a winner on the racing track.
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      12-06-2011, 10:22 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
You are a marketer's soggy wet dream. You had a Miata or two. Remind me, was Flying Miata doing superchargers or turbos? Did MazdaSpeed build a turbo or a supercharger? Sure, that crappy little Moss supercharger was cheap, but anyone that modified a Miata either coveted a turbo or an American V8, not the castaway blower from an SLK.

Toyota supercharged the MR2, then oops, dropped that and used a turbo later. Jaguar supercharged the XK and XJ, and again, dropped that and went to a turbo. AMG, same story.

Try this, name a few famous cars (you can even have the 30's, hint, Bentley Blower) that have superchargers. I'll take turbos, we'll see whose list is more significant.
Calm down man... you live in a country where there are more supercharged cars per inch square than in any other part of the world, V8s included. There's a reason for that!

I was also surprised by the fact that this Toyobaru would be supercharged because you do loose fuel efficiency which is so critical nowadays - that's its only caveat!.

And the only logic reason I could come up with for that was... hey, they are concerned with the turbo lag inherent to every turbo charged engine. That's how committed they are with the handling of this car. They want to transform it in a handling masterpiece!

That makes total logic to me if they can't have a big, powerful V8... because, they can't! I certainly would appreciate a supercharged flat-4 in order to avoid turbo lag and it certainly would be in accordance to their marketing :

Quote:
GT 86 development engineer Yoshi Sasaki says the GT 86 is for those who are bored with cars that are too powerful with their turbo engines, have too much grip with their huge tyres and four-wheel drive, cost too much and don't let the driver do enough. 'A fun car,' he says, 'is a car that you control.'

A non-turbo engine certainly IS easier to control!

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 12-06-2011 at 10:37 AM.
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      12-06-2011, 11:42 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Dear god, search for logic, you seem to have misplaced it.

No car has DOMINATED racing like the 911. A car that has a history since the 60's, with two wheelbase changes and one engine change (still the same number of cylinders, in the same layout though) has fully dominated sports car racing. How are the Ferrari 250 GTO, Aston DB6, BMW 3200CS and Shelby Cobra doing in FIA races?

What about Toyota or Subaru, how's their esteemed racing going?

The simple point is that in a thread about a Subura/Toyota joint venture, you seem to have stuck your head in the sand about what constitutes racing dominance. Drive around for a minute, the first 911 you see is that dominance. Ignore it if you want, it's still there and we all know it.
I think it's obvious Goingtofast is trolling. I'm actually surprised I entertained him for as long as I did.
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      12-06-2011, 11:59 AM   #188
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2013 Subaru BRZ




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Naturally, then, if everything is decent then the only place to go is... better. That's how you get to a brand like Subaru deciding to make a sports car and using, as a guide, the Porsche Cayman. And we do mean literal guide. During testing, Subaru engineers took a white Cayman on their international travels
Quote:
The result, as we know by now, is the BRZ – B is for Boxer, R is for Rear-wheel drive, Z is for Zenith, as in the best. The quest was to "get a new level of driving confidence," and that resulted in traditional sports car themes: low, with short overhangs, a compact engine and a low center of gravity. The CoG is lower than a Ferrari 458 Italia, and at 18.1 inches it's also lower than the Cayman, the Mazda Miata and RX-8, and the BMW M3.
Quote:
The Cayman comparisons aren't out of place, nor is the suggestion – again made by McHale – that Subaru built a car that feels like a sports car from 20 or 30 years ago. True, it isn't a Cayman, but it will cost easily 20 grand less than a Cayman* and yet provides easily more than seven-tenths of the Cayman's pure cornering ability, and that's probably closer to eight-tenths, but we won't know until we get more time with the car. And it does bring back happy days of yore passed on Midwestern back roads in '80s Celica Supras and Preludes and first-gen Miatas. Those were good times, and so is the BRZ.
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      12-06-2011, 02:13 PM   #189
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Damn the mirrors are soo small !
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      12-06-2011, 03:12 PM   #190
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Damn the mirrors are soo small !
Those are cameras. The production version should have conventional side mirrors.
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      12-06-2011, 06:27 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
A non-turbo engine certainly IS easier to control!
I think we both like where this car could go, I still suspect that Subaru will stick a turbo to it and call it a day. You talk about lag in a turbo charged engine, but honestly, on a track it's rarely an issue. I find lag to be more bothersome when you go from 3/10's to 9/10's and catch the car off balance. On the track, it's pretty easy to keep a reasonable size turbo spooled up with just a little planning. Unless you're really off line or not paying attention, a turbo, at least the modern variety, are seldom a liability towards balance.

In too many modern cars, cooling is under valued and turbo charged cars tend to be the biggest victims here. So for that reason, I love the flat motor they're using here as it should allow for plenty of air flow and cooling.

Here's to hoping that we're still talking about these cars in a few years.
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      12-07-2011, 04:55 AM   #192
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I think we both like where this car could go, I still suspect that Subaru will stick a turbo to it and call it a day.
You may be right after all:

Quote:
A representative of Subaru of America confirmed today that the company plans to build turbocharged versions of the 2.0-liter flat-four engine that recently made its debut in the companies all-new BRZ sports coupe – and in the Toyota 86/GT86 and Scion FR-S variants.
Subaru Confirms Turbocharged Version of BRZ Engine


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
You talk about lag in a turbo charged engine, but honestly, on a track it's rarely an issue. I find lag to be more bothersome when you go from 3/10's to 9/10's and catch the car off balance. On the track, it's pretty easy to keep a reasonable size turbo spooled up with just a little planning. Unless you're really off line or not paying attention, a turbo, at least the modern variety, are seldom a liability towards balance.
I've already posted this somewhere else... no one better than Walter Röhrl himself to explain it to you:


Last edited by GoingTooFast; 12-07-2011 at 09:23 AM.
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      12-07-2011, 07:40 AM   #193
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WTF? On the contrary Turbo is better for daily drive, but NA for track. M3 has no problems on track, other than stock brakes. But the 335i get into limp mode after a few minuits. On track you do feel lag, on the autobahn you don't. Smash the pedal and it goes. Why then are most petrole race cars NA and not Turbo? Those that have Turbo, like in WRC, those have ANTI-LAG, but you can't have this on a street car.
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      12-09-2011, 09:34 AM   #194
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Levi,

Here are some numbers that you are going to like:


BMW E30 M3
2 door coupe
195 hp (6750 rpm)
170 ft lbs (4600 rpm)
4cyl 2,302 cc displacement
6.9 seconds 0-62 mph (0-100kmh)
101in wheelbase
143 mph top speed
2,724 lbs weight lbs
$34,900 retail in U.S.

Subaru BRZ
2 door coupe
200 hp (7000 rpm)
150 ft lbs (6300 rpm)
4cyl 1,998 cc displacement
under 7 seconds 0-60 mph
143 mph top speed
101in wheelbase
2,690 lbs weight lbs
$25,000 (est) retail in U.S.
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      12-09-2011, 09:35 AM   #195
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      12-09-2011, 11:55 AM   #196
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While i'm not taken with the looks, I really like the idea of this car, a light coupe with an emphasis on handling. While it's not the fasted car out there, i think it's the prefect track car on a budget.
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      12-09-2011, 12:23 PM   #197
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Some good vibes :

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      12-09-2011, 05:16 PM   #198
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