BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
E92-lighting
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-29-2011, 09:16 AM   #1
Stainless 45
Lieutenant
 
Stainless 45's Avatar
 
Drives: Last of the V-8 Interceptors
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Long Island, NY

Posts: 445
iTrader: (1)

Engine experts- what would cause a top-end ticking besides injectors?

I've noticed a metallic tick-tick-tick at idle which seems to vary with rpm. 500-900 it's there, 1000-1100 it's gone, 1200-1400 it's there again, etc. It sounds similar to the injectors, but not the same. I can hear it with the hood shut but with the hood open it gets lost in the injector and intake noise. This is not the crank/ bearing noise that some have experienced, as it's steady and a lot quieter. Sounds like the valvetrain noise American V8's made but since we (M3's) don't have pushrods or rocker arms I'm at a loss. It is similar to the metallic racket we get at startup as the cats are being heated but when that's over this faint ticking remains. Coming from the left side. Could a valve need adjustment? Anyone else notice this?
__________________
2011.5 LeMans Blue e92 DCT, ZCP, European Delivery. Black Edition Grilles, No Keyhole or Reflectors, Rear Fogs Enabled, Encore Innovation Exhaust, LUX Angel Eyes, 255x285's. "Last of the V-8 Interceptors, a real piece of history..."
Stainless 45 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 10:31 AM   #2
elm3
M3 Lover
 
elm3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 e92 M3 Interlagos Blue
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canton, GA.

Posts: 1,850
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless 45 View Post
I've noticed a metallic tick-tick-tick at idle which seems to vary with rpm. 500-900 it's there, 1000-1100 it's gone, 1200-1400 it's there again, etc. It sounds similar to the injectors, but not the same. I can hear it with the hood shut but with the hood open it gets lost in the injector and intake noise. This is not the crank/ bearing noise that some have experienced, as it's steady and a lot quieter. Sounds like the valvetrain noise American V8's made but since we (M3's) don't have pushrods or rocker arms I'm at a loss. It is similar to the metallic racket we get at startup as the cats are being heated but when that's over this faint ticking remains. Coming from the left side. Could a valve need adjustment? Anyone else notice this?
Mine has the same, but it is the injectors. It is hard to isolate the noises under the hood. If it was a sticky valve, it would somewhat disapear after the engine is warmed up.
__________________
'09 E92 ///M3 Interlagos Blue, 6MT, Silver Novillo Leather, CF Trim, Premium Package, Technology Package, Cold Weather Package, Premium Sound, 19" Wheels, Moonroof-Toy/ '11 E90 328i Black Saphire Metallic, Premium Package, Technology Package - Daily Driver '02 Nissan Xterra- Daily Driver/ '04 Yamaha R1-Toy/ '06 Yamaha Raptor 350-Toy
elm3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 06:55 PM   #3
Stainless 45
Lieutenant
 
Stainless 45's Avatar
 
Drives: Last of the V-8 Interceptors
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Long Island, NY

Posts: 445
iTrader: (1)

Thanks, it actually seems a little more noticeable when the engine is warmed up. Doesn't sound like an injector to me- similar but not the same.

Anyone else? Surely some of you listen to your engine now and then...
__________________
2011.5 LeMans Blue e92 DCT, ZCP, European Delivery. Black Edition Grilles, No Keyhole or Reflectors, Rear Fogs Enabled, Encore Innovation Exhaust, LUX Angel Eyes, 255x285's. "Last of the V-8 Interceptors, a real piece of history..."
Stainless 45 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 07:01 PM   #4
Mr. ///M3 RD
Major General
 
Mr. ///M3 RD's Avatar
 
Drives: E350 & 280 SL on Weekends :)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GTA, Ontario - Canada

Posts: 7,863
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Bad gas ... wear ... some mechanical issues. Do have the dealer check it out you are under warranty ?

Tip ... never fill your gas tank at a station where you see a truck just filling the gas stations tanks. It creates turbulence in the gas stations main tank(s) and some of the foreign tank particles may end up in your gas tank ... be on guard for that. Just saying.
__________________
Cheers, Rolf-Dieter

Life will take us to some interesting places, fortunately The ///M3 will too with a many of us know this very well
---> Click here for some good stuff I found
Mr. ///M3 RD is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 07:03 PM   #5
JerryK73
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2009 LeMans Blue Coupe
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New Jersey/New Orleans/Houston

Posts: 244
iTrader: (3)

How many miles on the car (around 60,000 miles)? It could be that your valves need to be adjusted. Your car might be due for inspection 2
JerryK73 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 07:05 PM   #6
Mr. ///M3 RD
Major General
 
Mr. ///M3 RD's Avatar
 
Drives: E350 & 280 SL on Weekends :)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GTA, Ontario - Canada

Posts: 7,863
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless 45 View Post
Thanks, it actually seems a little more noticeable when the engine is warmed up.
As you know this is quite normal ... your engine components expand and clearances increase therefore noise is much more noticeable.

Make sure you are dealing with a good BMW dealership when this is being diagnosed. You paid good money for this car don't let them brush you up. Take your car there when the engine is real hot and let them listen to it right there and then.

I say this since I have experienced good and bad dealerships believe me they are out there.
__________________
Cheers, Rolf-Dieter

Life will take us to some interesting places, fortunately The ///M3 will too with a many of us know this very well
---> Click here for some good stuff I found
Mr. ///M3 RD is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 07:05 PM   #7
Mr. ///M3 RD
Major General
 
Mr. ///M3 RD's Avatar
 
Drives: E350 & 280 SL on Weekends :)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GTA, Ontario - Canada

Posts: 7,863
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryK73 View Post
How many miles on the car (around 60,000 miles)? It could be that your valves need to be adjusted. Your car might be due for inspection 2
Also this ^^^ 100 %
__________________
Cheers, Rolf-Dieter

Life will take us to some interesting places, fortunately The ///M3 will too with a many of us know this very well
---> Click here for some good stuff I found
Mr. ///M3 RD is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 07:45 PM   #8
tony093
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: E92 AW M3
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Linden, NJ

Posts: 289
iTrader: (0)

i was under the impression that S65 didn't need valve adjustment.
tony093 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 08:31 PM   #9
Ateam
Banned
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA

Posts: 1,109
iTrader: (0)

the e46 s54 needed valve adjustments but the hydralic lifters and valves need no adjustment for life of engine
Ateam is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 08:35 PM   #10
BMRLVR
Grease Monkey
 
BMRLVR's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada

Posts: 2,325
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless 45 View Post
I've noticed a metallic tick-tick-tick at idle which seems to vary with rpm. 500-900 it's there, 1000-1100 it's gone, 1200-1400 it's there again, etc. It sounds similar to the injectors, but not the same. I can hear it with the hood shut but with the hood open it gets lost in the injector and intake noise. This is not the crank/ bearing noise that some have experienced, as it's steady and a lot quieter. Sounds like the valvetrain noise American V8's made but since we (M3's) don't have pushrods or rocker arms I'm at a loss. It is similar to the metallic racket we get at startup as the cats are being heated but when that's over this faint ticking remains. Coming from the left side. Could a valve need adjustment? Anyone else notice this?
The noise you hear is indeed the valvetrain. It is quite common in a high performance engine to have some mechanical noise in the valvetrain. Both my M3's made the exact same noise you are describing and you should not worry, it is completely normal.

The valvetrain noise from American V8 engines is not pushrods or rocker arms but is in most cases the Hydraulic Lifters (except of course on solid lifter engines where the noise is indeed the required clearance in the valvetrain).

Although we don't have pushrods or rocker arms we we do have hydraulic lifters (hydraulic lash adjusters in BMW terminology) so the S65 don't require and there is no adjustment on valve clearance.

I understand that a noise like this is kind of annoying and we all would like our engines to be completely mechanically silent. The fact of the matter is that most all engines have some mechanical noise, there are a lot of moving parts in there and it is nearly impossible to eliminate mechanical noises.

One thing to note is that the M3 uses an Aluminium hood with no sound absorbing material on the underside. I think that is another reason that mechanical engine noise is so easy to hear on the M3, even with the hood down. Although most people don't think much about those sound absorbing pads on the underside of their hoods, they are extremely effective at sound abatement, it is left off of the M3 for weight purposes and the fact that they want you to hear the engine.
__________________
2011 E90 M3 ZCP - Individual Moonstone/Individual Amarone Extended/Individual Piano Black With Inlay:LINK!!!
1994 Euro E36 M3 Sedan - Daytona Violet/Mulberry:LINK!!!
BMRLVR is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 10:00 PM   #11
elp_jc
Brigadier General
 
Drives: .
Join Date: May 2008
Location: .

Posts: 4,910
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless 45 View Post
I've noticed a metallic tick-tick-tick at idle which seems to vary with rpm.
Perfectly normal, by your description. Some engines are a little noisier than others due to manufacturing tolerances. By the way, must pushrod engines are superquiet by comparison, but mostly due to their iron block. Just listen to a Vette, which has pushrods but aluminum block (like ours), and they make much more racket than our cars. As engine heats up, and oil thins out, the noise is more prevalent. Plus there's no underhood pad to absorb noise, like in most cars (clearance issue above 'powerdome', plus cost savings I'm sure, as a pad weighs practically nothing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony093 View Post
i was under the impression that S65 didn't need valve adjustment.
That is correct, but I have my doubts about the 'self-adjusting' part. Our valvetrain just seems better lubricated. I remember asking PencilGeek to scrutinize that claim, and he said all valvetrain parts looked the same as a 'regular' DOHC high-performance engine except a little lubricating hole on the tappets, so couldn't explain how they'd 'self adjust'. And he's been around engines. The good news is even DOHC engines without that system (Hondas) are supposed to last 100K miles without adjustment. Heck, even 'self-adjusting' drivetrains need to be checked/adjusted at 100K miles, since they have very little 'adjustment'. I wouldn't worry about that now.
elp_jc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 10:01 PM   #12
Stainless 45
Lieutenant
 
Stainless 45's Avatar
 
Drives: Last of the V-8 Interceptors
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Long Island, NY

Posts: 445
iTrader: (1)

BMRLVR- Thank you for the reply - this seems to make sense. Sounds like valve noise and while I know the S65 can be noisy, It's the fact that it comes and goes with changes in rpm that made me wonder. As if the tolerances are changing as the hydraulic lifter "fills".

Of course the noise disapears as the rpms climb, and the car runs like a champ, just cleared 5K miles on it. Dealership has said it's normal, but I'm not keen to trust dealership mechanics. They seem inclined to guess at a problem and just throw parts at it hoping the complaint will go away. If there's not a rod poking out of the block then it's "within spec" etc.
__________________
2011.5 LeMans Blue e92 DCT, ZCP, European Delivery. Black Edition Grilles, No Keyhole or Reflectors, Rear Fogs Enabled, Encore Innovation Exhaust, LUX Angel Eyes, 255x285's. "Last of the V-8 Interceptors, a real piece of history..."
Stainless 45 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-29-2011, 11:16 PM   #13
Ateam
Banned
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA

Posts: 1,109
iTrader: (0)

If its any comfort, every bmw I have owned has had a ticking sound problem! Think it is standard bmw protocol. Some cars worse than others. Currently mine is not a ticker but we will see!
Ateam is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-30-2011, 01:30 AM   #14
BMRLVR
Grease Monkey
 
BMRLVR's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada

Posts: 2,325
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless 45 View Post
I've noticed a metallic tick-tick-tick at idle which seems to vary with rpm.
Perfectly normal, by your description. Some engines are a little noisier than others due to manufacturing tolerances. By the way, must pushrod engines are superquiet by comparison, but mostly due to their iron block. Just listen to a Vette, which has pushrods but aluminum block (like ours), and they make much more racket than our cars. As engine heats up, and oil thins out, the noise is more prevalent. Plus there's no underhood pad to absorb noise, like in most cars (clearance issue above 'powerdome', plus cost savings I'm sure, as a pad weighs practically nothing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony093 View Post
i was under the impression that S65 didn't need valve adjustment.
That is correct, but I have my doubts about the 'self-adjusting' part. Our valvetrain just seems better lubricated. I remember asking PencilGeek to scrutinize that claim, and he said all valvetrain parts looked the same as a 'regular' DOHC high-performance engine except a little lubricating hole on the tappets, so couldn't explain how they'd 'self adjust'. And he's been around engines. The good news is even DOHC engines without that system (Hondas) are supposed to last 100K miles without adjustment. Heck, even 'self-adjusting' drivetrains need to be checked/adjusted at 100K miles, since they have very little 'adjustment'. I wouldn't worry about that now.
The S65 definitely don't require valve adjustments. Go and check the parts list for the valvetrain on the S65 (I am on my iPhone do I can't post the diagrams) , you will see the HLA listed but no where will you see valve adjustment shims like in all other of the M engines that require valve adjustments.

That little lubrication hole on the tappet is where the hydraulic/lash adjuster gets filled with oil....... That is how every hydraulic lifter/lash adjuster works. Inside the lifter/lash adjuster is a one way check ball which keeps the lifter full and in contact with the valve. As the clearance increases the one way check ball allows the lifter to fill and take up any clearance in the valve train. Sometimes the lifter will bleed down slightly after the engine has been shut off for a while and you will get some slight ticking on startup.

Another thing that can cause valvetrain noise is different oil viscosities. Since the 10w60 TWS is the only oil we are allowed to use it is impossible to tell if the inherent S65 Valvetrain noise can be lessened with different grades and or brands of oil.
__________________
2011 E90 M3 ZCP - Individual Moonstone/Individual Amarone Extended/Individual Piano Black With Inlay:LINK!!!
1994 Euro E36 M3 Sedan - Daytona Violet/Mulberry:LINK!!!
BMRLVR is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-30-2011, 09:53 AM   #15
Stainless 45
Lieutenant
 
Stainless 45's Avatar
 
Drives: Last of the V-8 Interceptors
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Long Island, NY

Posts: 445
iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the responses guys- I learn something every time I log on here!
__________________
2011.5 LeMans Blue e92 DCT, ZCP, European Delivery. Black Edition Grilles, No Keyhole or Reflectors, Rear Fogs Enabled, Encore Innovation Exhaust, LUX Angel Eyes, 255x285's. "Last of the V-8 Interceptors, a real piece of history..."
Stainless 45 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:17 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST