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      06-19-2007, 02:57 PM   #1
m3 bavaria
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I just read Roundel's write up on the E92 M3 V-8 power plant.

I can honestly say that it's quite impressive, but it actually swayed me to think that the 225i's i-6 is a better baseline powerplant.

From what you guys report, the i-6 stays buttery smooth with remapping, delivers more power, and is more driveable.

Who would have thought such nonsense?
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      06-19-2007, 03:00 PM   #2
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Can you scan/post the article?
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      06-19-2007, 03:06 PM   #3
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A scan of the article would be great!
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      06-19-2007, 03:22 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3 bavaria View Post
I225i's i-6 is a better baseline powerplant.
:
Huh? 335i right?
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      06-19-2007, 03:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PresaMat View Post
Can you scan/post the article?
No, because I don't have a scanner.

Let me see what I can do.
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      06-19-2007, 03:38 PM   #6
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They are two COMPLETELY different engines for two COMPLETELY different purposes and thinking that one of them is as a whole better is rather ignorant.
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      06-19-2007, 04:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3 bavaria View Post
No, because I don't have a scanner.

Let me see what I can do.

Do you have a digital camera? If so you can take pictures of the pages and upload them.

Mat
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      06-19-2007, 06:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey View Post
They are two COMPLETELY different engines for two COMPLETELY different purposes and thinking that one of them is as a whole better is rather ignorant.
They're both featured in road going cars, that will spend the vast majority of their life on pedestrian roadways.

While it's cute that you consider yourself to be "Mr. Motor Know It All", that hardly escapes the fact that the car will be driven on pedestrian roadways and is sold as a production car.
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      06-19-2007, 06:30 PM   #9
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I read that article yesterday when I got my first issue too. What an amazing piece of work. I like the picture of it sitting in the testing room with glowing red exhaust pipes.
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      06-19-2007, 10:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3 bavaria View Post
They're both featured in road going cars, that will spend the vast majority of their life on pedestrian roadways.

While it's cute that you consider yourself to be "Mr. Motor Know It All", that hardly escapes the fact that the car will be driven on pedestrian roadways and is sold as a production car.
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      06-19-2007, 11:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3 bavaria View Post
They're both featured in road going cars, that will spend the vast majority of their life on pedestrian roadways.

While it's cute that you consider yourself to be "Mr. Motor Know It All", that hardly escapes the fact that the car will be driven on pedestrian roadways and is sold as a production car.
A Ferrari and a Civic are also both road going cars, driven on pedestrian roadways, and sold as production cars. Sadly the majority of Ferraris also never see a track. Yet for some reason I highly doubt the Civic and Ferrari's engineers had the same thing in mind as they built their respective cars. I'm not "Mr. Motor Know It All", but I do have common sense.. something you seem to be lacking.

If you read the article as you claim you know the new M3's V8 has already proven itself in the M3 GTR raced in the 2001 ALMS series. While it lacks the dry sump and flat plane crank of the GTR's engine, it does have close to the same power output at 8300 rpm, individual throttle bodies, etc. It even weighs 33 pounds less than the straight six found in the previous M3. This isn't an attempt to sound smart, this is straight from Roundel.

If you think the the 335i's engine is the better one for you that's great but that certainly doesn't make it a better engine. The fact is one was born and bred for circuit racing and one has had overheating issues leading to limp mode on the track. That says something to me whether or not the majority of both cars will suffer the fate of a grocery getter. At the end of the day those two engines were engineered with very different purposes in mind whether they're sitting in Michael Schumacher's garage or your grandma's.
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      06-20-2007, 07:29 AM   #12
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I just got the Roundel yesterday. If someone doesn't scan it in by tonight I'll try to do so later in the evening when I am back from work.
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      06-20-2007, 07:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey View Post
If you think the the 335i's engine is the better one for you that's great but that certainly doesn't make it a better engine. The fact is one was born and bred for circuit racing and one has had overheating issues leading to limp mode on the track. That says something to me whether or not the majority of both cars will suffer the fate of a grocery getter. At the end of the day those two engines were engineered with very different purposes in mind whether they're sitting in Michael Schumacher's garage or your grandma's.

The facts are you are wrong, but please keep drinking the M kool-aid. What makes the new M3 engine any better than the now going on 3 yo production Audi 4.2L engine producing almost identical specs?

Without the dry sump what makes the M3 engine special? NOTHING! And lets not confuse the fact that this is basically a cost saving 2 cylinder lopped version on the M5-6 engine.

And the 335i engine does not have overheating issues except when paired with the Step and the jury is still out on whether the oil cooler retrofit solves that issue.

In another year, the 09 CTS-V will be running around with 600 HP. The GTR will be making 550+ HP (with chip) and kick the M3 around any track you care to run. Now those are special engines.
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      06-20-2007, 08:33 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
The facts are you are wrong. What makes the new M3 engine any better than the now going on 3 yo production Audi 4.2L engine producing almost identical specs?

Without the dry sump what makes the M3 engine special? NOTHING! And the 335i engine does not have overheating issues except when paired with the Step and the jury is still out on whether the oil cooler retrofit solves that issue.

In another year, the 09 CTS-V will be running around with 600 HP, now that is special.
"The facts are I am wrong" because it doesn't have a dry sump, and Audi has a similar engine? Ok... I think you forgot to read the first two paragraphs. I'm not saying either engine is better, only that it's hard to compare two engines engineered for two very different purposes. And while it doesn't have a dry sump it does use a second pump to prevent oil starvation under cornering and braking. Not quite a dry sump but they explained why it was left out in the article if perhaps you'd like to read it.

So despite individual throttle bodies, an 8400 rpm redline, aluminum construction, and 420 naturally aspirated horsepower, etc. the dry sump was the only thing that made it special? That's news to me. As I've already said this engine was designed for and proven on the track. Are you trying to tell me the 335's was also? If not I don't see what you're trying to prove.
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      06-20-2007, 08:35 AM   #15
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Oh lord.....has any letter in the alphabet ever created so many arguments as the letter M?
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      06-20-2007, 08:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey View Post
A Ferrari and a Civic are also both road going cars, driven on pedestrian roadways, and sold as production cars. Sadly the majority of Ferraris also never see a track. Yet for some reason I highly doubt the Civic and Ferrari's engineers had the same thing in mind as they built their respective cars. I'm not "Mr. Motor Know It All", but I do have common sense.. something you seem to be lacking.

If you read the article as you claim you know the new M3's V8 has already proven itself in the M3 GTR raced in the 2001 ALMS series. While it lacks the dry sump and flat plane crank of the GTR's engine, it does have close to the same power output at 8300 rpm, individual throttle bodies, etc. It even weighs 33 pounds less than the straight six found in the previous M3. This isn't an attempt to sound smart, this is straight from Roundel.

If you think the the 335i's engine is the better one for you that's great but that certainly doesn't make it a better engine. The fact is one was born and bred for circuit racing and one has had overheating issues leading to limp mode on the track. That says something to me whether or not the majority of both cars will suffer the fate of a grocery getter. At the end of the day those two engines were engineered with very different purposes in mind whether they're sitting in Michael Schumacher's garage or your grandma's.
My apologies, let me rename you "Capt. Common Sense", as you claim to possess such. What serious track enthusiast will buy a car that was "born and bred for circuit racing", when said car is tremendously overweight, and burdened with track essentials such as navigation systems, 14 speakers, heated seats, a sunroof, power windows, etc.?

The M engine is brilliant. However, the primary intent is to make wienies buy one so that they can brag about their track credentials as they drive to and from their local Starbucks. Now, if that engine comes in a CSL package, then this is a different discussion. However, given the nature of the way that the VAST majority of these cars will be used, you have to consider issues such as lower RPM available torque needed in daily situations. Even Roundel complained about this in the M5's V-10. Go figure.
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      06-20-2007, 09:00 AM   #17
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don't scan anything for these cheapskates


40 bucks a year is all it costs, and you get $500 the next time you buy a car
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      06-20-2007, 09:15 AM   #18
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Two points:

First, this is a fine example yet again of the benefits of joining the BMW CCA. You get the Roundel, and it is a good rag for those of us interested in things blue&white. There is almost always a gem of an article with specific stuff that you would never find in the trade rags.

Second, is the M3 E9x gonna rock? I think so. If I thought it was a rational use of my limited funds I would have put my deposit down a long time ago. The lack of an ED discount, and no deals off MSRP pretty much doomed it for me. It has the whole package -- LSD, CF roof, aluminum suspension castings that are pieces of art, perfect seats, .... And on topic, a wonderful V8, albeit without DI. My 335 with thousands of $ in mods is a cheap substitute, but both are phenomenal cars IMO. I need 4 doors for at least several years, and at that point there should be fun items to consider like the Z2 M that weighs almost a ton less.
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      06-20-2007, 09:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3 bavaria View Post
My apologies, let me rename you "Capt. Common Sense", as you claim to possess such. What serious track enthusiast will buy a car that was "born and bred for circuit racing", when said car is tremendously overweight, and burdened with track essentials such as navigation systems, 14 speakers, heated seats, a sunroof, power windows, etc.?

The M engine is brilliant. However, the primary intent is to make wienies buy one so that they can brag about their track credentials as they drive to and from their local Starbucks. Now, if that engine comes in a CSL package, then this is a different discussion. However, given the nature of the way that the VAST majority of these cars will be used, you have to consider issues such as lower RPM available torque needed in daily situations. Even Roundel complained about this in the M5's V-10. Go figure.
I agree the 335's engine and low end torque is more cut out for the street.. because that's what it was designed for. I don't see how that takes away from the M3's V8 which was not. All the unneccessary options in the world won't change what the engine was engineered for and it's unfortunate the majority of the its buyers are more concerned with how fast they can get to the mall than how fast they can get around a track.
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      06-20-2007, 10:28 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey View Post
So despite individual throttle bodies, an 8400 rpm redline, aluminum construction, and 420 naturally aspirated horsepower, etc. the dry sump was the only thing that made it special? That's news to me. As I've already said this engine was designed for and proven on the track. Are you trying to tell me the 335's was also? If not I don't see what you're trying to prove.
No, it was a special engine in 2001. We are now almost to 2008 before this engine will be released. And power under the curve is a much more useful number than peak HP for all around circuit racing performance. And if it were truly engineered for the circuit, as you say, where's the dry sump lubrication?

Did you ignore the numbers being put out by the competition? Including that of a chipped 335? How do you call an engine special if it does not exceed the performance of the competition, regardless of the number of marketing descriptions you can throw at it?
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      06-20-2007, 10:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
No, it was a special engine in 2001. We are now almost to 2008 before this engine will be released. And power under the curve is a much more useful number than peak HP for all around circuit racing performance. And if it were truly engineered for the circuit, as you say, where's the dry sump lubrication?

Did you ignore the numbers being put out by the competition? Including that of a chipped 335? How do you call an engine special if it does not exceed the performance of the competition, regardless of the number of marketing descriptions you can throw at it?
It's painfully obvious that you didn't read the article or my posts so exactly what are you arguing about?
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      06-20-2007, 11:14 AM   #22
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I just went to the BMWCCA website to see if I could snag a pdf of the article, and the "current issue" is still May... Pisses me off how the rags do that. Figured I could convince a few of you that Roundel (+500 rebate, driving schools, tech advice, ...) was a worthwhile part of joining BMWCCA. Oh well, there is talk of the website getting revamped.
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