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      11-17-2011, 01:26 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by Nine View Post
70k for used? Try closer to mid 60s if not lower. The exclusivity is not there just by virtue of price range. I would say most of the members on M3post can swing a GT-R, the same is not true of a Turbo S or other cars in the 'exclusive' frame (458 italia etc). The GT-R is within the grasp of the masses, not exclusive that is my point, not rare either. Plenty of GT-Rs available to be purchased, plenty of 'anybodys' owning them.

Very different from the exclusivity of owning a GT2, for example.
And the GT-R is faster than said 911 GT2 at the Nurburgring in Germany where the men are separated from the boys?

Really, going back to your college students owning GT-Rs. I don't know where you go to college but I could barely afford to go eat out for dinner in college let alone afford a $2K/month car payment?

I dunno what world you live in, but I'd love to join you. We can frolick in the fields of rainbows and unicorns together.
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      11-17-2011, 01:50 PM   #486
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And the GT-R is faster than said 911 GT2 at the Nurburgring in Germany where the men are separated from the boys?

Really, going back to your college students owning GT-Rs. I don't know where you go to college but I could barely afford to go eat out for dinner in college let alone afford a $2K/month car payment?

I dunno what world you live in, but I'd love to join you. We can frolick in the fields of rainbows and unicorns together.
I'm sorry, I can't find where the GT-R is faster than a GT2RS, here is my link...
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

My point wasn't to say the GT-R is not fast, but I wouldn't use the word "terror"...

Regarding 'access' If you've spent any time on this forum you'd see that plenty of people are easily flipping M3s for GT-Rs, or just buying GT-Rs. My point again is not about performance, it's about exclusivity and rare, it's too easy to end up in a GT-R.
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      11-17-2011, 01:54 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by Nine View Post
I'm sorry, I can't find where the GT-R is faster than a GT2RS, here is my link...
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

My point wasn't to say the GT-R is not fast, but I wouldn't use the word "terror"...

Regarding 'access' If you've spent any time on this forum you'd see that plenty of people are easily flipping M3s for GT-Rs, or just buying GT-Rs. My point again is not about performance, it's about exclusivity and rare, it's too easy to end up in a GT-R.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times

7:21 Nissan GT-R (2012) Toshio Suzuki October 2011 Nissan conducted test.

7:24 Porsche 911 GT2 RS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2010)

The 7:18 lap time for the GT2 RS is on Sport Cup tires which are race tires. GT-R runs on street tires.

Top Gear Power Board:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_test_track

1:17.8 - Nissan GT-R (2012)
1:19.5 - Porsche 997 GT2
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      11-17-2011, 02:04 PM   #488
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Thanks,

Complettely off topic, but in the last 3-4 months lost several hours of sleep on this, is the question of what you actually want "on the track" Clearly I am too old and not talented enough to be a race car driver. Racing for some team and put up huge money just to be part of the team and realize that I am not "Senna" feels like a big vaste to me. Rather do some charity and help the less fortunate. On the other hand every time on the track want to do more. The GT3 RS was a step up from the M3, the cup or maybe a radical SR8 would be another step up but then I would be clearly out of my range in terms of abilities. Pluss I just dont have the time right now.
I do not know, and I do not expect any advise on these thoughts here, especially not on this thread but the frustration is there.
I even went so far as to buy some land and build a go-kart track and go with a 125cc shifter kart.
Anyway, I never wanted to say that the GT3RS is not a great car, but it's not without fault, especially if you are frustrated!
Ummmmm....so i have an idea!!! Why dont you invite a select few of us over to your Go-Kart track and we can all have a fun filled racing wekend in Omaha!!!!! YOu wouldn't happen to know the Cerwick family by any chance would you?
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      11-17-2011, 02:26 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
And the GT-R is faster than said 911 GT2 at the Nurburgring in Germany where the men are separated from the boys?

Really, going back to your college students owning GT-Rs. I don't know where you go to college but I could barely afford to go eat out for dinner in college let alone afford a $2K/month car payment?

I dunno what world you live in, but I'd love to join you. We can frolick in the fields of rainbows and unicorns together.
That's a bubble world, with bubble-boys (Seinfeld) in it
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      11-17-2011, 02:34 PM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times

7:21 Nissan GT-R (2012) Toshio Suzuki October 2011 Nissan conducted test.

7:24 Porsche 911 GT2 RS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2010)

The 7:18 lap time for the GT2 RS is on Sport Cup tires which are race tires. GT-R runs on street tires.
I think those sport cup tires are OEM, according to the Wiki link and Tire Rack, am I missing something, are you saying the GTR has posted a faster time than the GT2RS, I'm still not seeing...regardless of tires.
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      11-17-2011, 02:41 PM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times

7:21 Nissan GT-R (2012) Toshio Suzuki October 2011 Nissan conducted test.

7:24 Porsche 911 GT2 RS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2010)

The 7:18 lap time for the GT2 RS is on Sport Cup tires which are race tires. GT-R runs on street tires.
The cup tires on the Porsche are street legal and OEM equipment. They are comparable in grip to the tires the GT-R uses. Furthermore, if you want to do an apples-to-apples comparison, throw out the manufacturer times and use Sport Auto's exclusively. They got a 7:34 for the 2012 GT-R. Their times for the GT2 are 7:24 for the RS (as you noted) and 7:32 for the "vanilla" 997 GT2 that pre-dated it.
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      11-17-2011, 04:06 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
The cup tires on the Porsche are street legal and OEM equipment. They are comparable in grip to the tires the GT-R uses. Furthermore, if you want to do an apples-to-apples comparison, throw out the manufacturer times and use Sport Auto's exclusively. They got a 7:34 for the 2012 GT-R. Their times for the GT2 are 7:24 for the RS (as you noted) and 7:32 for the "vanilla" 997 GT2 that pre-dated it.
You are incorrect, the Sport Auto test is with a 2011 GT-R. the 2012 has additional upgrades and performance improvements over it.. http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS...1107-01-e.html

Your tire assumption is incorrect too. The Sport Cup N-spec that is used on the GT2 RS is 80 treadwear and classified as "Track and Competition" tires. The SP Sport Maxx GT 600 DSST CTT on the GT-R are 200 treadwear "Extreme Performance" tires comparable to say a RE11 or AD08. Not in the same league at all.

As for "street legal", just about anything can be street legal. These Hoosier slicks are DOT approved for street use too. At 40 treadwear, it won't last you a month of daily street driving.

Last edited by Z K; 11-17-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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      11-17-2011, 04:27 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
You are incorrect, the Sport Auto test is with a 2011 GT-R. the 2012 has additional upgrades and performance improvements over it.. http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS...1107-01-e.html

Your tire assumption is incorrect too. The Sport Cup N-spec that is used on the GT2 RS is 80 treadwear and classified as "Track and Competition" tires. The SP Sport Maxx GT 600 DSST CTT on the GT-R are 200 treadwear "Extreme Performance" tires comparable to say a RE11 or AD08. Not in the same league at all.

As for "street legal", just about anything can be street legal. These Hoosier slicks are DOT approved for street use too. At 40 treadwear, it won't last you a month of daily street driving.
Your posts are giving me a headache, are you saying that those tires are not the OEM tires, because they are. Nissan can choose to change OEM tires, just as easily as they chose to up the HP on the GT-R.

You are getting off track here, no pun intended but really my comparison to the GT2 was about exclusivity and a car being rare.

I've yet to see a compelling argument proving that the GT-R is exclusive or rare.

Oh and, does anyone else find it annoying that as soon as you find a car faster than a GT-R, people respond with 2012 GT-R, I bet in 2012, they will be saying 2014 GT-R Until the GT-R posts up a faster time at the N-ring, you can't say that it is faster than say an LFA or a GT2 both cars are very exclusive and very rare.
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      11-17-2011, 04:47 PM   #494
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Your posts are giving me a headache, are you saying that those tires are not the OEM tires, because they are. Nissan can choose to change OEM tires, just as easily as they chose to up the HP on the GT-R.

You are getting off track here, no pun intended but really my comparison to the GT2 was about exclusivity and a car being rare.

I've yet to see a compelling argument proving that the GT-R is exclusive or rare.

Oh and, does anyone else find it annoying that as soon as you find a car faster than a GT-R, people respond with 2012 GT-R, I bet in 2012, they will be saying 2014 GT-R Until the GT-R posts up a faster time at the N-ring, you can't say that it is faster than say an LFA or a GT2 both cars are very exclusive and very rare.
No, the argument is not about OEM tires, it's about what kind of tires are put on a car. Nissan puts street tires on their car, as it is designed to be driven everyday if people want to. The GT2 RS's tires are not daily driver tires. I can create a car, put on some slicks and those are OEM too, but have nothing in common with the tires that come on say a Toyota Camry which have OEM tires.

As I mentioned before, $100K for a weekend toy car is very unattainable for the vast majority of people in the world. And so it is "expensive". People can afford a Toyota Corolla, not everyone can afford a GT-R. The average US HOUSEHOLD income is about $60K a year, not $300K.

The argument is that a car doesn't have to be exclusive to be a supercar. A supercar is different than being a exotic car, a collector's item or being a hypercar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercar

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Supercar is a term used most often to describe an expensive high end car. It has been defined specifically as "a very expensive, fast or powerful car". Stated in more general terms: "it must be very fast, with sporting handling to match", "it should be sleek and eye-catching" and its price should be "one in a rarefied atmosphere of its own".

However, the proper application of the term is subjective and disputed, especially among enthusiasts. So-called vehicles are typically out of the ordinary and are marketed by automakers to be perceived by the public as unusual. The supercar can take many forms including limited production specials from an "elite" automaker, standard looking cars made by mainstream companies that hide massive power and performance, as well as models that appeal to "hardcore enthusiasts" from "manufacturers on the fringe of the car industry".
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      11-17-2011, 04:56 PM   #495
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You are incorrect, the Sport Auto test is with a 2011 GT-R. the 2012 has additional upgrades and performance improvements over it.. http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS...1107-01-e.html
That model isn't even going to be available in the U.S. until next year and has not been tested by Sport Auto. You can not use a Nissan supplied time against one run by Sport Auto. Porsche claims a 7:18 for the GT2 RS. That is still faster than the time Nissan claims for the now twice upgraded GT-R so I don't know what your point is.


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Your tire assumption is incorrect too.
I'll stop you before you dig yourself into an even deeper hole. Treadwear ratings between tire manufacturers are NOT comparable. An 80 rating by Michelin can not be compared to a 200 rating by Dunlop. Each manufacturer interprets the UTQG their own way. Furthermore, it is erroneous to suggest the GT-R is somehow "undertired" compared to the competition. Dunlop has optimized runflats specifically for the GT-R's weight and contact patch. Swapping for supposedly stickier tires on the GT-R hasn't/won't yield faster times because they don't have the sidewall strength.
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      11-17-2011, 05:00 PM   #496
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No, the argument is not about OEM tires, The argument is that a car doesn't have to be exclusive to be a supercar. A supercar is different than being a exotic car, a collector's item or being a hypercar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercar
That is fine, as long as you agree that the GT-R is not exclusive or rare, that was my entire point. I'll give it to whoever wants it, you can have the title of supercar, pretty soon every sports car will be considered a supercar or have a super car variant. Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, Viper, etc. etc... so I'm not really worried about that supercar word anymore.

My point was basically that the GT-R can be picked up by anyone who picks up a corvette, 6 series, base carrera, CLS, so and so on, it's a very attainable car.
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      11-17-2011, 05:10 PM   #497
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My point was basically that the GT-R can be picked up by anyone who picks up a corvette, 6 series, base carrera, CLS, so and so on, it's a very attainable car.
They can, but they don't which makes it rare. The GT-R is exclusive in that you don't see them. Only 6000 examples exist in the USA for all the production years combined. That's a pretty small number which is less than the number of Ferrari sold in the USA. You'll sooner see a Ferrari than a GT-R on the road.
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      11-17-2011, 05:30 PM   #498
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They can, but they don't which makes it rare. The GT-R is exclusive in that you don't see them. Only 6000 examples exist in the USA for all the production years combined. That's a pretty small number which is less than the number of Ferrari sold in the USA. You'll sooner see a Ferrari than a GT-R on the road.
What do you mean 'they don't', the GT-R is being picked up and dropped left and right, (see NAGTROC or Cars.com or M3post) I've never seen such rapid turnover.

I guess it seems like a higher number because part of that 6000 gets dumped back into the open market so while 2000 might be available through Nissan and dealerships per year as new, another 500-1000+ are available in the used, preowned market.
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      11-17-2011, 06:21 PM   #499
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Odd, it looks like you just took some jabs at Porsche...oh but it's ok I'll be the bad guy on this one...first point, we are not talking about porsche, their marketing and their branding, we talking about components of a supercar, I agreed on performance, but to say that the GT-R is exclusive or that the GT-R is rare is a gross over estimation of the actual situation. I'm going by the information that is readily available on NAGTROC and websites like Cars.com or autotrader.

I'm not trying to engage anyone in an argument, just trying to bring a little reality into the thread. Rare, Exclusive are not the GT-R especially given the buyers market owith GT-Rs right now.

A true rare and exclusive car would not lose any value and be very difficult to come by and very highly sought after, example again the GT2 selling out almost instantly upon release.

Nothing against the GT-R, or your GT-R, amazing vehicle...it really is.
Leasing a GTR will set you back $1300 a month. That really isn't available to the masses. Simple demand and supply. Just because it cost 95k, doesn't mean it's 'available to the masses'. That's a mortgage payment. If you have a GT-R you're

1.) An enthusiast
2.) Very well off.


P.S. Just because people with an M or 6 series can afford the GT-R, doesn't mean they will. The GT-R is a sports car. The M3 is a sporty cruiser and the 6 series is just a cruiser. Can't really compare them.
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      11-18-2011, 03:14 AM   #500
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Again, sales numbers are low in comparison to MANY cars. And again, its not a car you see like a civic. In fact check the average sales for any car out there and its pretty obvious the GTRs numbers are pretty low. That and economy and cost.
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      11-18-2011, 10:11 AM   #501
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Leasing a GTR will set you back $1300 a month. That really isn't available to the masses. Simple demand and supply. Just because it cost 95k, doesn't mean it's 'available to the masses'. That's a mortgage payment. If you have a GT-R you're

1.) An enthusiast
2.) Very well off.


P.S. Just because people with an M or 6 series can afford the GT-R, doesn't mean they will. The GT-R is a sports car. The M3 is a sporty cruiser and the 6 series is just a cruiser. Can't really compare them.
Do you consider yourself well off? IIRC, you just purchased a c63amg coupe, you are the 'people who didn't buy a GT-R' you chose not to buy it, the GT-R does not get chosen because it is too exlusive, rare, or difficult to attain. The GT-R is not chosen because most people are not willing to spend more than 40k on a Nissan sportscar.


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Again, sales numbers are low in comparison to MANY cars. And again, its not a car you see like a civic. In fact check the average sales for any car out there and its pretty obvious the GTRs numbers are pretty low. That and economy and cost.

I'm taking about inventory, market availability. Two very different things, number sold vs. number available, there are too many GT-Rs available to be throwing the term exclusive or rare, maybe back in 2009 was the vehicle exlusive or rare, maybe in 2012, when only a few hundred are initially available, but right now, looking around the various sources, you can't say that a GT-R is exclusive or rare, and stop comparing it to a civic, I was comparing it to a GT2. There are rare civics, mugen type R, probably more rare and exclusive than a GT-R.
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      11-18-2011, 11:09 AM   #502
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Do you consider yourself well off? IIRC, you just purchased a c63amg coupe, you are the 'people who didn't buy a GT-R' you chose not to buy it, the GT-R does not get chosen because it is too exlusive, rare, or difficult to attain. The GT-R is not chosen because most people are not willing to spend more than 40k on a Nissan sportscar.





I'm taking about inventory, market availability. Two very different things, number sold vs. number available, there are too many GT-Rs available to be throwing the term exclusive or rare, maybe back in 2009 was the vehicle exlusive or rare, maybe in 2012, when only a few hundred are initially available, but right now, looking around the various sources, you can't say that a GT-R is exclusive or rare, and stop comparing it to a civic, I was comparing it to a GT2. There are rare civics, mugen type R, probably more rare and exclusive than a GT-R.

I do actually consider myself well off. I didn't choose a GT-R simply because I didn't need a sports car. I want a comfortable sporty coupe that's quick, and fun to drive.
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      11-18-2011, 12:42 PM   #503
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I do actually consider myself well off. I didn't choose a GT-R simply because I didn't need a sports car. I want a comfortable sporty coupe that's quick, and fun to drive.
I'm confused, the GT-R is not comfortable and fun to drive?
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      11-18-2011, 12:49 PM   #504
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I'm confused, the GT-R is not comfortable and fun to drive?
If you've ever driven one, you'll know the GT-R has a lot more in common with a race car than something to comfortably drive every day. The drivetrain whines, the shifts make distinct clicking and clunking sounds and the ride is stiff. It's not everyone's cup of tea which is why it mainly appeals to car enthusiasts.
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      11-18-2011, 01:22 PM   #505
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my head hurts.
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      11-18-2011, 01:45 PM   #506
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OP here - I ordered my 2013 GTR yesterday!
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