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      11-15-2011, 03:51 AM   #1
Stainless 45
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Love my '11 M3, not a fan of current American muscle cars. But after reading this it is painfully apparent that M Division needs to step up it's game if it's going to stay relevant, at least in the North American market. I mean 650 hp and 600 lb ft of torque -stock- and the new M3 gets a 6 cylinder? Granted the interior will probably suck, but performance wise this car is going to leave certain more refined cars in it's dust, and for about the same money.


http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2011/...0-mph-mustang/
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      11-15-2011, 04:07 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless 45 View Post
Love my '11 M3, not a fan of current American muscle cars. But after reading this it is painfully apparent that M Division needs to step up it's game if it's going to stay relevant, at least in the North American market. I mean 650 hp and 600 lb ft of torque -stock- and the new M3 gets a 6 cylinder? Granted the interior will probably suck, but performance wise this car is going to leave certain more refined cars in it's dust, and for about the same money.


http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2011/...0-mph-mustang/
I'd say less money...
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      11-15-2011, 04:22 AM   #3
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uh...I thought those ESS guys are already putting out more power than this GT500, and their M3s actually corner pretty well too!
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      11-15-2011, 04:33 AM   #4
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uh...I thought those ESS guys are already putting out more power than this GT500, and their M3s actually corner pretty well too!
huge price difference.....

and you shouldn't compare moded to stock...
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      11-15-2011, 05:41 AM   #5
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The E# M3 range is so much more than power as a package it's sublime
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      11-15-2011, 05:46 AM   #6
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I think you're severly underestimating the ability of a 6 cylinder motor with forced induction. The R35 GTR can put down more power than the new mustang with a tune and basic bolt ons. My R34 GTR was a 2.6L, ran mid 11's all day and put down 450awhp with standard internals and a few bolt ons.

The six cylinder plan for the new M3 will certainly not be a limiting factor in any form if it's developed properly, and you can sure as hell bet the mustang won't stand up to the m3 in any other category apart from straight line speed. I honestly don't believe it is the intention of the M division to create a 700hp monster, it's all about balance and function as a package.

That being said i sure as hell wouldn't mind an extra 100 - 150hp as standard, or at least them developing a platform that allows more friendly modification (such as the R35 GTR) so the tuning world doesn't have to spend so much money for so little gain like we do now.
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      11-15-2011, 08:55 AM   #7
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Hey, if Ford built a 4-door with a manual transmission I'd seriously consider it. SVT, why do you fail me!?
You'd have to be an irrational car snob to overlook some of the great stuff that the domestic makers have been doing lately. Too bad those caddies are fugly :-(
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      11-15-2011, 09:36 AM   #8
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Wow! Already three threads on this. Doesn't anyone search?
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      11-15-2011, 09:39 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless 45 View Post
Love my '11 M3, not a fan of current American muscle cars. But after reading this it is painfully apparent that M Division needs to step up it's game if it's going to stay relevant, at least in the North American market. I mean 650 hp and 600 lb ft of torque -stock- and the new M3 gets a 6 cylinder? Granted the interior will probably suck, but performance wise this car is going to leave certain more refined cars in it's dust, and for about the same money.


http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2011/...0-mph-mustang/
It's not always (for most of us anyway) about speed. How can you compare a Mustang to a M3
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      11-15-2011, 09:59 AM   #10
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I think that is totally awesome that Ford is offering such an extreme car, for an affordable price. It will make a ton of car-dudes happy, and that is always a good thing.

It won't make me even think of selling my M3 for such a beast....The M3 is a different animal. I have driven the latest Mustangs, and the interior refinement (or lack thereof) really puts me off. Although the new chassis is certainly tight, it is no M3.
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      11-15-2011, 10:02 AM   #11
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the competition is good for the brands. The new mustang is a fine machine, with a rich (but gaudy) interior and fine road manners. It lacks a bit of polish, but that is on purpose to suit the customer's desire for a raw experience. In this day and age, it is impossible to laugh off a mustang, like one could back in 1989!!

I just hope that BMW goes the way of lighter cars, and not the AMG way.

Also, just think of how much pressure porsche is under with their cars. A 911 can't stay in front of some rental cars. A decent altima V6 is faster than a boxster in a straight line. Sure, there is more to the cars than that, but a sports car should be effortlessly fast.....
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      11-15-2011, 10:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
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I think you're severly underestimating the ability of a 6 cylinder motor with forced induction.
For some reason, BMW isn't pushing too hard on FI. Look at 335, 3liter engine with 300hp with 2 turbos... I remember a version of EVO was getting 200hp/liter. But than it had 1 minute turbo lag... So maybe that's why BMW is not pushing too much on hp/liter? In short, don't expect BMW to get close to 500hp with the new M3.

Sure it can be modded, but I'm not sure if it is long term reliable.
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      11-15-2011, 11:39 AM   #13
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wow, what a beast. refined or not, that's a lot of firepower for the kind of money this will go for
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      11-15-2011, 12:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilli View Post
...The six cylinder plan for the new M3 will certainly not be a limiting factor in any form if it's developed properly, and you can sure as hell bet the mustang won't stand up to the m3 in any other category apart from straight line speed. I honestly don't believe it is the intention of the M division to create a 700hp monster, it's all about balance and function as a package...
When the Mustang GT with 412 HP can stay within a whisker of the current M3 around Laguna Seca, and the Boss 302 can soundly whip the Bimmer around the same course, why wouldn't the GT500 be that much faster - meaning in a different league altogether.

With the newest Camaro running low 7:40s around the 'Ring, why wouldn't the GT500 be at least that fast, given that it has more power and weighs less.

The fact of the matter is that although the M3 is possibly the finest compromise vehicle ever built, it doesn't cover itself with glory on track.

I have high hopes for the new M3, but doubt that low 7:40s are anywhere in the game plan.

Bruce
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      11-15-2011, 02:24 PM   #15
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The M3 has always held the benchmark- it was always the one everything else was compared to. It's handling, power to weight, purist appeal, and quality have always set the standard by a wide margin. The problem I see is with cars such as this new GT 500, those margins are getting much slimmer. If BMW M is concerned about sales figures, they should come up with something extreme like this, that puts them clearly out in front again. Create an M3 with a 550 hp V-10 and people would sell their kid to buy one.
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      11-15-2011, 02:30 PM   #16
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The OP is right. BMW is swimming in choppy waters with "Efficient Dynamics" and the M-Division seemingly at odds in missions. They'll never admit to that, but going from 414HP to a projected 450HP for the next gen "M4" just won't be enough warp drive to smoke monsters like the C63, Boss 302, and GT-R's of the world.

I suppose that's at least good news for the after-market tuning industry.
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      11-15-2011, 02:34 PM   #17
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I think that is totally awesome that Ford is offering such an extreme car, for an affordable price. It will make a ton of car-dudes happy, and that is always a good thing.

It won't make me even think of selling my M3 for such a beast....The M3 is a different animal. I have driven the latest Mustangs, and the interior refinement (or lack thereof) really puts me off. Although the new chassis is certainly tight, it is no M3.
This ^^^^

My thoughts exactly. I've owned three C6 versioned Vettes and they are fun cars that have some nice styling to them (at least the widebody Vettes -- Z06, ZR1 and Grand Sport) but I will tell you right now that the reason I don't own them anymore is I thought I could get past the shitty interiors, build quality and materials used, but I couldn't. It is just so damn cheap looking and feeling. The Mustangs and Camaros are the same way --- plus neither of them have an exterior styling that is appealing to me.

I respect them (as I do the Evo's and STI's of the world) but you can put 1,000 hp in those cars and I'd never have an interest in owning one.
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      11-15-2011, 02:41 PM   #18
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This ^^^^

My thoughts exactly. I've owned three C6 versioned Vettes and they are fun cars that have some nice styling to them (at least the widebody Vettes -- Z06, ZR1 and Grand Sport) but I will tell you right now that the reason I don't own them anymore is I thought I could get past the shitty interiors, build quality and materials used, but I couldn't. It is just so damn cheap looking and feeling. The Mustangs and Camaros are the same way --- plus neither of them have an exterior styling that is appealing to me.

I respect them (as I do the Evo's and STI's of the world) but you can put 1,000 hp in those cars and I'd never have an interest in owning one.
+ 1,000,000
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      11-15-2011, 03:00 PM   #19
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Create an M3 with a 550 hp V-10 and people would sell their kid to buy one.
It's called the F10 M5, and it has a turbo V8 The fact is, it costs $70-$100K to make a car with as much power and refinement as the M3/M5. You try to do it for 30% less, and you can get the same power but crap interiors. Hell, you can't even get Navigation in any Camaro model, even the upcoming ZL-1.

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This ^^^^

My thoughts exactly. I've owned three C6 versioned Vettes and they are fun cars that have some nice styling to them (at least the widebody Vettes -- Z06, ZR1 and Grand Sport) but I will tell you right now that the reason I don't own them anymore is I thought I could get past the shitty interiors, build quality and materials used, but I couldn't. It is just so damn cheap looking and feeling. The Mustangs and Camaros are the same way --- plus neither of them have an exterior styling that is appealing to me.

I respect them (as I do the Evo's and STI's of the world) but you can put 1,000 hp in those cars and I'd never have an interest in owning one.
I can't believe no American manufacturer has stepped up and said "eff this, we'll make a good interior so we can get some of those German-car buyers". Is it really that difficult? Is it really that expensive? The 2012 Mustang I drove had an interior that looked like a toy. You can get Nav in a $19K Honda, but not a $55K Camaro ZL-1? Ridiculous.

As much as this comment will piss off half the folks here, I really can't consider any sports car without some kind of dual clutch transmission. The M3's DCT has absolutely spoiled me! And no Vette, Camaro or Mustang has an equivalent.
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      11-15-2011, 04:06 PM   #20
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It's called the F10 M5, and it has a turbo V8 The fact is, it costs $70-$100K to make a car with as much power and refinement as the M3/M5. You try to do it for 30% less, and you can get the same power but crap interiors. Hell, you can't even get Navigation in any Camaro model, even the upcoming ZL-1.



I can't believe no American manufacturer has stepped up and said "eff this, we'll make a good interior so we can get some of those German-car buyers". Is it really that difficult? Is it really that expensive? The 2012 Mustang I drove had an interior that looked like a toy. You can get Nav in a $19K Honda, but not a $55K Camaro ZL-1? Ridiculous.

As much as this comment will piss off half the folks here, I really can't consider any sports car without some kind of dual clutch transmission. The M3's DCT has absolutely spoiled me! And no Vette, Camaro or Mustang has an equivalent.
+1 Man, this innocuous post has touched on some great issues. Someone should forward it to a car executive(s) from Ford, GM, etc. Much as I want to buy American, and I'm no snob, there's no way I would buy any current American car product, period. To me, a car is a "complete package." Power, design, reliability, classy interior, handling, etc. While certain American cars win on power, the Germans simply kick our azz every which way from Sunday on every other category. All of my car purchases to date have been either p-car, merc, audi or beemer, and I don't see that trend changing anytime soon.
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      11-15-2011, 04:24 PM   #21
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Much as I want to buy American, and I'm no snob, there's no way I would buy any current American car product, period.
I'd really like to buy American. In fact, my M3 was the first German car I bought. Most of my recent cars have been Hondas.

But..... I see glimpses that domestic manufacturers might be turning the corner. I spent a week with a '12 Ford Focus, and came away impressed. If they gave the DCT tranny an option for steering wheel mounted manual shifting, it would be a hellova $25k commuting car. And I don't even like Ford!

Maybe in 5-10 more years we'll see all of the big 3 turn the corner. I think Buick already did. Cadillac still needs one more cycle to "get it right". Dodge probably needs another cycle or two. Chevy, I just dunno. Ford might be the closest, if they can get their interiors up another notch.
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      11-15-2011, 05:36 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
When the Mustang GT with 412 HP can stay within a whisker of the current M3 around Laguna Seca, and the Boss 302 can soundly whip the Bimmer around the same course, why wouldn't the GT500 be that much faster - meaning in a different league altogether.

With the newest Camaro running low 7:40s around the 'Ring, why wouldn't the GT500 be at least that fast, given that it has more power and weighs less.

The fact of the matter is that although the M3 is possibly the finest compromise vehicle ever built, it doesn't cover itself with glory on track.

I have high hopes for the new M3, but doubt that low 7:40s are anywhere in the game plan.

Bruce
http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...ss_302_ls.html

While I don't have any official times for the Boss LS in comparison to a ZCP M3 I don't think whip is the correct term. The mustang has come a very ling way and I doubt BMW will progress with the next model as Ford did with that car, but please don't make such bold claims without numbers. And before you attack back, Bruce, I've seen your posts on this forum and typically they are aimed at the M3 when other cars are in question. I respect the knowledge you have, just trying to make a simple point.
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