Please, Please talk me out of a GTR

[mikewads]

Originally Posted by graider

is the GTR a supercar? fwck yea.
i think you guys mixup exotic and supercar.

bear with me. price cannot be used to define supercar. would you call a 200k bentley or 1 mil roll a supercar? i don't think so. they are expensive, but don't handle like a supercar.

so this leave the supercar criteria to performance, exclusivity, rarity, terror and respect. GTR performance is mind bogging (faster than pretty much most supercar out there, exclusive, and rare. in fact i think the GTR is more supercar than a 911 turbo or z06 because while the turbo/z06 is a soup up version of the regular 911 and vette that are everywhere, the GTR is an exclusive model on it own and when you see it on the street, you know it is a GTR. there is no mistaking it for another model from Nissan. terror/respect = GTR is godzilla for a reason.

do i think the m3 a supercar? NO. 3 series are everywhere and m3 not even close to GTR performance.

Good post... I agree.

Originally Posted by devo

Doesn't mean anything. Parts break on any car when grossly abused. Likely, far too many hard launches and/or heavily modified.

The guy in the pictures that broke his rear diff. housing has about 400 hard launches on his GT-R and runs in the high 9s. No shame in his rear diff. finally giving out.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by graider

so this leave the supercar criteria to performance, exclusivity, rarity, terror and respect. .

The only supercar criteria that the GT-R has is performance, there is nothing exclusive about the GT-R, it is NOT rare at all, it can be easily attained by most enthusiasts and even college students, 'terror and respect' - I think the GT-R has a wow factor, terror and respect is not really what happens at the autobahn in top end runs.

If you like to play around with the local ricers, sure 0-60 is cute, maybe a 1/4 mile at a few of seconds is something you can cling on to, but at the autobahn, after 120mph is where the men are seperated from the boys, and I'm not sure the GT-R rains terror in places like the autobahn on other supercars...or super performaning cars.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Nine

The only supercar criteria that the GT-R has is performance, there is nothing exclusive about the GT-R, it is NOT rare at all, it can be easily attained by most enthusiasts and even college students, 'terror and respect' - I think the GT-R has a wow factor, terror and respect is not really what happens at the autobahn in top end runs.

At nearly $100K for a new car and $70K for used examples, I don't know how this is affordable to most people and students? If you finance that, you'll end up with a payment that is greater than some people's home mortgages.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Z K

At nearly $100K for a new car and $70K for used examples, I don't know how this is affordable to most people and students? If you finance that, you'll end up with a payment that is greater than some people's home mortgages.

70k for used? Try closer to mid 60s if not lower. The exclusivity is not there just by virtue of price range. I would say most of the members on M3post can swing a GT-R, the same is not true of a Turbo S or other cars in the 'exclusive' frame (458 italia etc). The GT-R is within the grasp of the masses, not exclusive that is my point, not rare either. Plenty of GT-Rs available to be purchased, plenty of 'anybodys' owning them.

Very different from the exclusivity of owning a GT2, for example.

[mattixxg]

Originally Posted by Nine

70k for used? Try closer to mid 60s if not lower. The exclusivity is not there just by virtue of price range. I would say most of the members on M3post can swing a GT-R, the same is not true of a Turbo S or other cars in the 'exclusive' frame (458 italia etc). The GT-R is within the grasp of the masses, not exclusive that is my point, not rare either. Plenty of GT-Rs available to be purchased, plenty of 'anybodys' owning them.

Very different from the exclusivity of owning a GT2, for example.

Your posts never cease to crack me up with the subtle jabs at the GTR at every turn.

First off, lets look at the numbers.
The GTR is NOT as common as a 3 series bmw, civic, or even an m3. not by a long shot. theres what 6k sold in the USA since its coming to the US shores?

As far as porsche goes, with the gt2 sure, youre right but the problem with Porsche is that they are almost as common as a civic. With thousands of boxters and the years the general bodystyle has been out, it tends to bore many who look for "exclusivity".
This is why the GTR stands out. Your under no confusion as to what it is in the nissan line. Its distinct and polarizing..

Also lets look at what the average American is making in comparison to even owning said car(s) especially in this economy. I believe the "masses" is a gross overstatement. And 60k for most HIGH mileage 09s. No where near the performance of the 2012s..mind you.

Stop acting like the GTR is as common as a prius dude...

[Nine]

Originally Posted by mattixxg

Your posts never cease to crack me up with the subtle jabs at the GTR at every turn.

First off, lets look at the numbers.
The GTR is NOT as common as a 3 series bmw, civic, or even an m3. not by a long shot. theres what 6k sold in the USA since its coming to the US shores?
Stop acting like the GTR is as common as a prius dude...

Odd, it looks like you just took some jabs at Porsche...oh but it's ok I'll be the bad guy on this one...first point, we are not talking about porsche, their marketing and their branding, we talking about components of a supercar, I agreed on performance, but to say that the GT-R is exclusive or that the GT-R is rare is a gross over estimation of the actual situation. I'm going by the information that is readily available on NAGTROC and websites like Cars.com or autotrader.

I'm not trying to engage anyone in an argument, just trying to bring a little reality into the thread. Rare, Exclusive are not the GT-R especially given the buyers market owith GT-Rs right now.

A true rare and exclusive car would not lose any value and be very difficult to come by and very highly sought after, example again the GT2 selling out almost instantly upon release.

Nothing against the GT-R, or your GT-R, amazing vehicle...it really is.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Nine

70k for used? Try closer to mid 60s if not lower. The exclusivity is not there just by virtue of price range. I would say most of the members on M3post can swing a GT-R, the same is not true of a Turbo S or other cars in the 'exclusive' frame (458 italia etc). The GT-R is within the grasp of the masses, not exclusive that is my point, not rare either. Plenty of GT-Rs available to be purchased, plenty of 'anybodys' owning them.

Very different from the exclusivity of owning a GT2, for example.

And the GT-R is faster than said 911 GT2 at the Nurburgring in Germany where the men are separated from the boys?

Really, going back to your college students owning GT-Rs. I don't know where you go to college but I could barely afford to go eat out for dinner in college let alone afford a $2K/month car payment?

I dunno what world you live in, but I'd love to join you. We can frolick in the fields of rainbows and unicorns together.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Z K

And the GT-R is faster than said 911 GT2 at the Nurburgring in Germany where the men are separated from the boys?

Really, going back to your college students owning GT-Rs. I don't know where you go to college but I could barely afford to go eat out for dinner in college let alone afford a $2K/month car payment?

I dunno what world you live in, but I'd love to join you. We can frolick in the fields of rainbows and unicorns together.

I'm sorry, I can't find where the GT-R is faster than a GT2RS, here is my link...
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

My point wasn't to say the GT-R is not fast, but I wouldn't use the word "terror"...

Regarding 'access' If you've spent any time on this forum you'd see that plenty of people are easily flipping M3s for GT-Rs, or just buying GT-Rs. My point again is not about performance, it's about exclusivity and rare, it's too easy to end up in a GT-R.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Nine

I'm sorry, I can't find where the GT-R is faster than a GT2RS, here is my link...
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

My point wasn't to say the GT-R is not fast, but I wouldn't use the word "terror"...

Regarding 'access' If you've spent any time on this forum you'd see that plenty of people are easily flipping M3s for GT-Rs, or just buying GT-Rs. My point again is not about performance, it's about exclusivity and rare, it's too easy to end up in a GT-R.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times

7:21 Nissan GT-R (2012) Toshio Suzuki October 2011 Nissan conducted test.

7:24 Porsche 911 GT2 RS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2010)

The 7:18 lap time for the GT2 RS is on Sport Cup tires which are race tires. GT-R runs on street tires.

Top Gear Power Board:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_test_track

1:17.8 - Nissan GT-R (2012)
1:19.5 - Porsche 997 GT2

[SROC3]

Originally Posted by attila

Thanks,

Complettely off topic, but in the last 3-4 months lost several hours of sleep on this, is the question of what you actually want "on the track" Clearly I am too old and not talented enough to be a race car driver. Racing for some team and put up huge money just to be part of the team and realize that I am not "Senna" feels like a big vaste to me. Rather do some charity and help the less fortunate. On the other hand every time on the track want to do more. The GT3 RS was a step up from the M3, the cup or maybe a radical SR8 would be another step up but then I would be clearly out of my range in terms of abilities. Pluss I just dont have the time right now.
I do not know, and I do not expect any advise on these thoughts here, especially not on this thread but the frustration is there.
I even went so far as to buy some land and build a go-kart track and go with a 125cc shifter kart.
Anyway, I never wanted to say that the GT3RS is not a great car, but it's not without fault, especially if you are frustrated!

Ummmmm....so i have an idea!!! Why dont you invite a select few of us over to your Go-Kart track and we can all have a fun filled racing wekend in Omaha!!!!! YOu wouldn't happen to know the Cerwick family by any chance would you?

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by Z K

And the GT-R is faster than said 911 GT2 at the Nurburgring in Germany where the men are separated from the boys?

Really, going back to your college students owning GT-Rs. I don't know where you go to college but I could barely afford to go eat out for dinner in college let alone afford a $2K/month car payment?

I dunno what world you live in, but I'd love to join you. We can frolick in the fields of rainbows and unicorns together.

That's a bubble world, with bubble-boys (Seinfeld) in it

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Z K

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times

7:21 Nissan GT-R (2012) Toshio Suzuki October 2011 Nissan conducted test.

7:24 Porsche 911 GT2 RS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2010)

The 7:18 lap time for the GT2 RS is on Sport Cup tires which are race tires. GT-R runs on street tires.

I think those sport cup tires are OEM, according to the Wiki link and Tire Rack, am I missing something, are you saying the GTR has posted a faster time than the GT2RS, I'm still not seeing...regardless of tires.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by Z K

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times

7:21 Nissan GT-R (2012) Toshio Suzuki October 2011 Nissan conducted test.

7:24 Porsche 911 GT2 RS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2010)

The 7:18 lap time for the GT2 RS is on Sport Cup tires which are race tires. GT-R runs on street tires.

The cup tires on the Porsche are street legal and OEM equipment. They are comparable in grip to the tires the GT-R uses. Furthermore, if you want to do an apples-to-apples comparison, throw out the manufacturer times and use Sport Auto's exclusively. They got a 7:34 for the 2012 GT-R. Their times for the GT2 are 7:24 for the RS (as you noted) and 7:32 for the "vanilla" 997 GT2 that pre-dated it.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

The cup tires on the Porsche are street legal and OEM equipment. They are comparable in grip to the tires the GT-R uses. Furthermore, if you want to do an apples-to-apples comparison, throw out the manufacturer times and use Sport Auto's exclusively. They got a 7:34 for the 2012 GT-R. Their times for the GT2 are 7:24 for the RS (as you noted) and 7:32 for the "vanilla" 997 GT2 that pre-dated it.

You are incorrect, the Sport Auto test is with a 2011 GT-R. the 2012 has additional upgrades and performance improvements over it.. http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS...1107-01-e.html

Your tire assumption is incorrect too. The Sport Cup N-spec that is used on the GT2 RS is 80 treadwear and classified as "Track and Competition" tires. The SP Sport Maxx GT 600 DSST CTT on the GT-R are 200 treadwear "Extreme Performance" tires comparable to say a RE11 or AD08. Not in the same league at all.

As for "street legal", just about anything can be street legal. These Hoosier slicks are DOT approved for street use too. At 40 treadwear, it won't last you a month of daily street driving.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Z K

You are incorrect, the Sport Auto test is with a 2011 GT-R. the 2012 has additional upgrades and performance improvements over it.. http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS...1107-01-e.html

Your tire assumption is incorrect too. The Sport Cup N-spec that is used on the GT2 RS is 80 treadwear and classified as "Track and Competition" tires. The SP Sport Maxx GT 600 DSST CTT on the GT-R are 200 treadwear "Extreme Performance" tires comparable to say a RE11 or AD08. Not in the same league at all.

As for "street legal", just about anything can be street legal. These Hoosier slicks are DOT approved for street use too. At 40 treadwear, it won't last you a month of daily street driving.

Your posts are giving me a headache, are you saying that those tires are not the OEM tires, because they are. Nissan can choose to change OEM tires, just as easily as they chose to up the HP on the GT-R.

You are getting off track here, no pun intended but really my comparison to the GT2 was about exclusivity and a car being rare.

I've yet to see a compelling argument proving that the GT-R is exclusive or rare.

Oh and, does anyone else find it annoying that as soon as you find a car faster than a GT-R, people respond with 2012 GT-R, I bet in 2012, they will be saying 2014 GT-R Until the GT-R posts up a faster time at the N-ring, you can't say that it is faster than say an LFA or a GT2 both cars are very exclusive and very rare.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Nine

Your posts are giving me a headache, are you saying that those tires are not the OEM tires, because they are. Nissan can choose to change OEM tires, just as easily as they chose to up the HP on the GT-R.

You are getting off track here, no pun intended but really my comparison to the GT2 was about exclusivity and a car being rare.

I've yet to see a compelling argument proving that the GT-R is exclusive or rare.

Oh and, does anyone else find it annoying that as soon as you find a car faster than a GT-R, people respond with 2012 GT-R, I bet in 2012, they will be saying 2014 GT-R Until the GT-R posts up a faster time at the N-ring, you can't say that it is faster than say an LFA or a GT2 both cars are very exclusive and very rare.

No, the argument is not about OEM tires, it's about what kind of tires are put on a car. Nissan puts street tires on their car, as it is designed to be driven everyday if people want to. The GT2 RS's tires are not daily driver tires. I can create a car, put on some slicks and those are OEM too, but have nothing in common with the tires that come on say a Toyota Camry which have OEM tires.

As I mentioned before, $100K for a weekend toy car is very unattainable for the vast majority of people in the world. And so it is "expensive". People can afford a Toyota Corolla, not everyone can afford a GT-R. The average US HOUSEHOLD income is about $60K a year, not $300K.

The argument is that a car doesn't have to be exclusive to be a supercar. A supercar is different than being a exotic car, a collector's item or being a hypercar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercar

Supercar is a term used most often to describe an expensive high end car. It has been defined specifically as "a very expensive, fast or powerful car". Stated in more general terms: "it must be very fast, with sporting handling to match", "it should be sleek and eye-catching" and its price should be "one in a rarefied atmosphere of its own".

However, the proper application of the term is subjective and disputed, especially among enthusiasts. So-called vehicles are typically out of the ordinary and are marketed by automakers to be perceived by the public as unusual. The supercar can take many forms including limited production specials from an "elite" automaker, standard looking cars made by mainstream companies that hide massive power and performance, as well as models that appeal to "hardcore enthusiasts" from "manufacturers on the fringe of the car industry".

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by Z K

You are incorrect, the Sport Auto test is with a 2011 GT-R. the 2012 has additional upgrades and performance improvements over it.. http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS...1107-01-e.html

That model isn't even going to be available in the U.S. until next year and has not been tested by Sport Auto. You can not use a Nissan supplied time against one run by Sport Auto. Porsche claims a 7:18 for the GT2 RS. That is still faster than the time Nissan claims for the now twice upgraded GT-R so I don't know what your point is.

Originally Posted by Z K

Your tire assumption is incorrect too.

I'll stop you before you dig yourself into an even deeper hole. Treadwear ratings between tire manufacturers are NOT comparable. An 80 rating by Michelin can not be compared to a 200 rating by Dunlop. Each manufacturer interprets the UTQG their own way. Furthermore, it is erroneous to suggest the GT-R is somehow "undertired" compared to the competition. Dunlop has optimized runflats specifically for the GT-R's weight and contact patch. Swapping for supposedly stickier tires on the GT-R hasn't/won't yield faster times because they don't have the sidewall strength.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Z K

No, the argument is not about OEM tires, The argument is that a car doesn't have to be exclusive to be a supercar. A supercar is different than being a exotic car, a collector's item or being a hypercar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercar

That is fine, as long as you agree that the GT-R is not exclusive or rare, that was my entire point. I'll give it to whoever wants it, you can have the title of supercar, pretty soon every sports car will be considered a supercar or have a super car variant. Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, Viper, etc. etc... so I'm not really worried about that supercar word anymore.

My point was basically that the GT-R can be picked up by anyone who picks up a corvette, 6 series, base carrera, CLS, so and so on, it's a very attainable car.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Nine

My point was basically that the GT-R can be picked up by anyone who picks up a corvette, 6 series, base carrera, CLS, so and so on, it's a very attainable car.

They can, but they don't which makes it rare. The GT-R is exclusive in that you don't see them. Only 6000 examples exist in the USA for all the production years combined. That's a pretty small number which is less than the number of Ferrari sold in the USA. You'll sooner see a Ferrari than a GT-R on the road.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Z K

They can, but they don't which makes it rare. The GT-R is exclusive in that you don't see them. Only 6000 examples exist in the USA for all the production years combined. That's a pretty small number which is less than the number of Ferrari sold in the USA. You'll sooner see a Ferrari than a GT-R on the road.

What do you mean 'they don't', the GT-R is being picked up and dropped left and right, (see NAGTROC or Cars.com or M3post) I've never seen such rapid turnover.

I guess it seems like a higher number because part of that 6000 gets dumped back into the open market so while 2000 might be available through Nissan and dealerships per year as new, another 500-1000+ are available in the used, preowned market.

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by Nine

Odd, it looks like you just took some jabs at Porsche...oh but it's ok I'll be the bad guy on this one...first point, we are not talking about porsche, their marketing and their branding, we talking about components of a supercar, I agreed on performance, but to say that the GT-R is exclusive or that the GT-R is rare is a gross over estimation of the actual situation. I'm going by the information that is readily available on NAGTROC and websites like Cars.com or autotrader.

I'm not trying to engage anyone in an argument, just trying to bring a little reality into the thread. Rare, Exclusive are not the GT-R especially given the buyers market owith GT-Rs right now.

A true rare and exclusive car would not lose any value and be very difficult to come by and very highly sought after, example again the GT2 selling out almost instantly upon release.

Nothing against the GT-R, or your GT-R, amazing vehicle...it really is.

Leasing a GTR will set you back $1300 a month. That really isn't available to the masses. Simple demand and supply. Just because it cost 95k, doesn't mean it's 'available to the masses'. That's a mortgage payment. If you have a GT-R you're

1.) An enthusiast
2.) Very well off.


P.S. Just because people with an M or 6 series can afford the GT-R, doesn't mean they will. The GT-R is a sports car. The M3 is a sporty cruiser and the 6 series is just a cruiser. Can't really compare them.

[mattixxg]

Again, sales numbers are low in comparison to MANY cars. And again, its not a car you see like a civic. In fact check the average sales for any car out there and its pretty obvious the GTRs numbers are pretty low. That and economy and cost.