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      11-05-2011, 01:22 PM   #1
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s65 v. s85 trumpets

I was wondering if we have the exact same length trumpets in our air intake plenums as the s85 engine did?

Also I noticed on a show about the z06 the other day that their monster enigine has no trumpets or any individual throttle bodies for that matter. I understand trumpets if left exposed to the open air with no intake cover but what benefits are the trumpets when inside an air intake manifold when the plenums are full of air anyway?
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      11-05-2011, 03:28 PM   #2
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Better throttle response man, since they're closer to the intake valves. But much more complex and expensive, and typically less fuel efficient. Not worth the minute difference in throttle response IMO. Even Ferraris don't have individual throttle bodies like our M3s (only 2). In fact, no other car has them except NA M engines. I remember reading about another car, but probably an exotic; can't even remember when I read that, or which car. I'd have much preferred not having front strut suspension than individual TBs. Or better brake calipers. Oh well.
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      11-05-2011, 04:00 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Better throttle response man, since they're closer to the intake valves. But much more complex and expensive, and typically less fuel efficient. Not worth the minute difference in throttle response IMO. Even Ferraris don't have individual throttle bodies like our M3s (only 2). In fact, no other car has them except NA M engines. I remember reading about another car, but probably an exotic; can't even remember when I read that, or which car. I'd have much preferred not having front strut suspension than individual TBs. Or better brake calipers. Oh well.
But TOTALLY worth the awesome intake noise
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      11-06-2011, 11:06 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
I'd have much preferred not having front strut suspension than individual TBs.
What is the problem with the front strut suspension??? The M3 is one of the best handling cars in it's price range, the Macpherson strut suspension is fine!
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      11-06-2011, 07:38 PM   #5
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What is the problem with the front strut suspension??? The M3 is one of the best handling cars in it's price range, the Macpherson strut suspension is fine!

x2 on this question. If it works just damn fine, why not have it? In fact, it creates more space and allows the S65 to fit in there, whereas a double wishbone or other type of multi-link would use up more space towards the center of the car.

OP, to get into the details of the intake design, you'd have to really get with the engineers that designed it. But to oversimplify it, the enclosed "box" allows matching cylinders to help scavenge air into one another. Each closing set of intake valves under each trumpet essentialy creates a pulse wave (different wave characteristics over the range of engine speed). For each closing set of intake valves, there is a set that is opening. So for a given RPM, or in some cases RPM range, you can match cylinders to help "push" air from the one whose valves are closing to the one whose valves are opening. The plenum design, and where the trumpets are located, the trumpet's diameter, and trumpet's length all factor into this, along with intake and exhaust valve diamater, lift, , exhaust header diameter, header length, etc.

Though not exactly accurate, but it helps visualize it, think of the air inside the intake chamber as large baloon that can change shape, and is under constant pressure. The baloon's shape is such that it follows the contour of the intake manifold, and extends to the bottom of each trumpet. Now, as a set of intake valves close, imagine that they push air up through the trumpet and onto this baloon. The baloon is feeling the pressure but has no where to go, but within a nansecond, another set of intake valves open (or the throttle plate under the trumpet), and suddenly the baloon forces its way down that trumpet, due to the pressure it was feeling through the air pushed up from the closing set of valves.
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      11-06-2011, 08:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piloto View Post
x2 on this question. If it works just damn fine, why not have it? In fact, it creates more space and allows the S65 to fit in there, whereas a double wishbone or other type of multi-link would use up more space towards the center of the car.

OP, to get into the details of the intake design, you'd have to really get with the engineers that designed it. But to oversimplify it, the enclosed "box" allows matching cylinders to help scavenge air into one another. Each closing set of intake valves under each trumpet essentialy creates a pulse wave (different wave characteristics over the range of engine speed). For each closing set of intake valves, there is a set that is opening. So for a given RPM, or in some cases RPM range, you can match cylinders to help "push" air from the one whose valves are closing to the one whose valves are opening. The plenum design, and where the trumpets are located, the trumpet's diameter, and trumpet's length all factor into this, along with intake and exhaust valve diamater, lift, , exhaust header diameter, header length, etc.

Though not exactly accurate, but it helps visualize it, think of the air inside the intake chamber as large baloon that can change shape, and is under constant pressure. The baloon's shape is such that it follows the contour of the intake manifold, and extends to the bottom of each trumpet. Now, as a set of intake valves close, imagine that they push air up through the trumpet and onto this baloon. The baloon is feeling the pressure but has no where to go, but within a nansecond, another set of intake valves open (or the throttle plate under the trumpet), and suddenly the baloon forces its way down that trumpet, due to the pressure it was feeling through the air pushed up from the closing set of valves.
Cool thanks a lot!

I am always amazed at how much engineering there really is that goes into a proper intake manifold. A lot of cars have a variable length intake with 2 or 3 paths depending on RPM. I am wondering why the m3 did not go this route with this engine as from what I have heard it gives you the best of both worlds at all rpms values.
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      11-07-2011, 02:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
What is the problem with the front strut suspension??? The M3 is one of the best handling cars in it's price range, the Macpherson strut suspension is fine!
There's a reason I have elp_jc on my block list...
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      11-07-2011, 03:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Better throttle response man, since they're closer to the intake valves. But much more complex and expensive, and typically less fuel efficient. Not worth the minute difference in throttle response IMO. Even Ferraris don't have individual throttle bodies like our M3s (only 2). In fact, no other car has them except NA M engines. I remember reading about another car, but probably an exotic; can't even remember when I read that, or which car. I'd have much preferred not having front strut suspension than individual TBs. Or better brake calipers. Oh well.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the MacPherson front suspension of the current M3, it does what it is supposed to and does it well. It's suspension geometry and design is fine and doesn't need to be done with as you are requesting.

Throttle response? There is a very large difference between ITB and non ITB along with a very different power delivery.
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      11-09-2011, 01:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the MacPherson front suspension of the current M3
Who the hell said it was 'something wrong'? There's nothing wrong with the live axle rear suspension on the Mustang Boss302 either. It depends what YOU want, based on use of the car and personal preferences. Every option has pros and cons. I don't personally like struts; that's all. That's exactly the same thing with the brakes. Nothing 'wrong' with the stock setup for normal street use, but MUCH prefer multi-piston calipers myself. And often driving an F430 and M3 back to back, I can categorically tell you the M3 does NOT have better throttle response than the 430 with only 2 TBs. Take your PMS medication folks . Good day.

Last edited by elp_jc; 11-09-2011 at 01:19 PM.
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      11-09-2011, 06:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
What is the problem with the front strut suspension??? The M3 is one of the best handling cars in it's price range, the Macpherson strut suspension is fine!
There's a reason I have elp_jc on my block list...
I hear ya..... He makes some of the strangest posts on the forum!
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      11-09-2011, 10:01 PM   #11
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      11-09-2011, 10:44 PM   #12
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      11-10-2011, 01:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Who the hell said it was 'something wrong'? There's nothing wrong with the live axle rear suspension on the Mustang Boss302 either. It depends what YOU want, based on use of the car and personal preferences. Every option has pros and cons. I don't personally like struts; that's all. That's exactly the same thing with the brakes. Nothing 'wrong' with the stock setup for normal street use, but MUCH prefer multi-piston calipers myself. And often driving an F430 and M3 back to back, I can categorically tell you the M3 does NOT have better throttle response than the 430 with only 2 TBs. Take your PMS medication folks . Good day.
Ok. I understand where you are going with this, but you could use a more appropriate tone.

You do realize an F430 is a mid-engined car with far stiffer bushings which lend to better response?

One a side note, take it easy a bit, nobody is attacking you, you are doing all the attacking.

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      11-10-2011, 03:03 PM   #14
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There's a reason I have elp_jc on my block list...
LOL. I don't have him blocked, but I do laugh at his posts a lot.
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      11-10-2011, 11:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
We're talking THROTTLE response. No discernible difference with a Z06 or Vantage either, if that makes you happy . If there was, all race cars would have them. I own an M3, but the reality is individual TBs are more of a bragging right than anything else IMO. They definitely have more drawbacks than advantages, especially now that fuel economy and costs/packaging/reliability are so important.

And no, wasn't 'attacking' anybody, nor did I feel 'attacked'. Chill out man. It's just that some people love to twist simple comments. But I understand now that M3s are a lot more affordable, this place is like a zoo now . I have most of those 'members' blocked, so it's easy to read threads now . We have little in common, but you're definitely one of the few who I consider an asset to the site, so don't mind at all our respectful disagreements . Have a nice long weekend.
Elitist, arrogant, and ignorant. We have the trifecta folks. LOL.
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      11-11-2011, 04:27 AM   #16
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Elitist, arrogant, and ignorant. We have the trifecta folks. LOL.
^I agree with this for sure!!!

The thing I find funniest about elp_jc is the fact that he acts like he knows everything about everything. In all reality he has no idea about ITB's, MacPherson Struts or anything else..... it is all just a good act. People who actually do know can tell by his posts that it is all an act. Don't get me wrong, he does contribute lots of useful info but it is poisoned by the bullshit.

What's with the "Now that M3's are a lot more affordable"? It is evident he is a person who thinks himself better than everyone else! I usually try and stay away from criticizing people on here but I have read too many of elp_jc's irritating posts and enough is enough!
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Last edited by BMRLVR; 11-11-2011 at 04:46 AM.
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      11-11-2011, 05:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
We're talking THROTTLE response. No discernible difference with a Z06 or Vantage either, if that makes you happy . If there was, all race cars would have them. I own an M3, but the reality is individual TBs are more of a bragging right than anything else IMO. They definitely have more drawbacks than advantages, especially now that fuel economy and costs/packaging/reliability are so important.

And no, wasn't 'attacking' anybody, nor did I feel 'attacked'. Chill out man. It's just that some people love to twist simple comments. But I understand now that M3s are a lot more affordable, this place is like a zoo now . I have most of those 'members' blocked, so it's easy to read threads now . We have little in common, but you're definitely one of the few who I consider an asset to the site, so don't mind at all our respectful disagreements . Have a nice long weekend.
If it's such a "zoo" around here because the M3 is "a lot more affordable" then perhaps it's time for you to get rid of your M3, go out and buy a far more expensive car and stop visiting the "zoo".
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      11-11-2011, 10:34 AM   #18
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Shits getting real in this thread...

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