BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
Stick to Clutch
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-07-2011, 04:02 PM   #23
flipm3
E46 + E90
 
Drives: E46 M3 + E90 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Illinois

Posts: 2,771
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2009 BMW M3  [0.00]
2002 BMW M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
You are correct on both points.

However in this case, one would just use the OEM DME from the S65.

-Malek
I may have missed this information in my past research. Is it confirmed that the MSS60 DME of the E9X M3 is compatible with the S85B50? My understanding is that the E60 M5 has an MSS65 DME.
__________________
E90 M3 DCT|Melbourne Red . Speed Cloth | My Build Thread
E46 M3 6MT|Jet Black . Black Nappa Leather | My Build Thread
flipm3 is offline   Philippines
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 04:06 PM   #24
Malek@MRF
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Malek@MRF's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Irvine, California

Posts: 3,331
iTrader: (5)

Send a message via AIM to Malek@MRF
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipm3 View Post
I may have missed this information in my past research. Is it confirmed that the MSS60 DME of the E9X M3 is compatible with the S85B50? My understanding is that the E60 M5 has an MSS65 DME.
Please ignore my typo.. OOPS. I meant to say, the person would have to use the DME from the S85, not S65.

Yes, you are correct, the S65 uses the MSS60 and the S85 uses the MSS65.
__________________

BMW PERFORMANCE SPECIALISTS. Suspension. Forced Induction. Brakes. Race Preparation. Service. Alignments.
OFFICIAL PARTNERS: Íhlins. KW Suspension. Brembo. AP Racing. ESS Tuning. iND Distribution. Turner Motorsport.
Facebook | Instagram | Yelp! | Flikr | Contact | YouTube
Malek@MRF is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 04:07 PM   #25
Malek@MRF
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Malek@MRF's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Irvine, California

Posts: 3,331
iTrader: (5)

Send a message via AIM to Malek@MRF
Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
This topic has been discussed before along with some detailed
pricing estimates and amount of work (search).

For a standard S85 to E9x M3 conversion, the cost of conversion
will be ~$50-70k. For a stroker S85, add another $30-40k on top
of that.
That is a highly inflated price on the swap.

S85's can be found for decent prices these days.
__________________

BMW PERFORMANCE SPECIALISTS. Suspension. Forced Induction. Brakes. Race Preparation. Service. Alignments.
OFFICIAL PARTNERS: Íhlins. KW Suspension. Brembo. AP Racing. ESS Tuning. iND Distribution. Turner Motorsport.
Facebook | Instagram | Yelp! | Flikr | Contact | YouTube
Malek@MRF is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 04:08 PM   #26
M3SQRD
Colonel
 
M3SQRD's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3s, R56 Cooper S
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: EC

Posts: 2,420
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ateam View Post
I do not think 50-70 is even ballpark. 30-40 MAYBE if that. M5 engines are now really cheap compared to what they used to be. We do not need a tranny as the dtc will hold up nicely. Then a tuner and tuning ability. Should be no more than 30 max
So if you think it is only $30k MAX, why don't you get started on the conversion and then when you're done please tell us the true cost of the conversion.
M3SQRD is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 04:08 PM   #27
flipm3
E46 + E90
 
Drives: E46 M3 + E90 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Illinois

Posts: 2,771
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2009 BMW M3  [0.00]
2002 BMW M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
Please ignore my typo.. OOPS. I meant to say, the person would have to use the DME from the S85, not S65.

Yes, you are correct, the S65 uses the MSS60 and the S85 uses the MSS65.
Oh, all good! Thanks for the clarification.

I'm assuming it's fairly complicated swapping over a complete DME to maintain DSC, cruise control, climate control, all the fancy amenities, etc...Anyone know of any accessible tuner that can readily do that?
__________________
E90 M3 DCT|Melbourne Red . Speed Cloth | My Build Thread
E46 M3 6MT|Jet Black . Black Nappa Leather | My Build Thread
flipm3 is offline   Philippines
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 04:28 PM   #28
Daft
Captain
 
Daft's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 ZCP E92 M3 & 2003 E46 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posts: 877
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 BMW M3  [4.85]
2003 BMW M3  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ateam View Post
I do not think 50-70 is even ballpark. 30-40 MAYBE if that. M5 engines are now really cheap compared to what they used to be. We do not need a tranny as the dtc will hold up nicely. Then a tuner and tuning ability. Should be no more than 30 max
But damn still, spend that much strictly cuz you like the sound of the M5 engine? There's tons of exhaust systems for the M3. Added to that endless x-pipe, resonator, cat, muffler etc. combos out there. There's got to be a combo out there that will satisify your audio needs rather than taking on such a monumental and expensive task. But if you do accomplish it, massive thumbsup regardless!
__________________

2011 M3 ZCP | ESS SUPERCHARGED | AKRAPOVIC EVOLUTION | 20" HRE P40 | BREMBO BBK | B&G SPRINGS
Daft is online now   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 05:26 PM   #29
IMG
VT3
 
IMG's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3 Track car,Ess E90 M3 DD
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Couch

Posts: 6,970
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarnes
So if you think it is only $30k MAX, why don't you
get started on the conversion and then when you're done please
tell us the true cost of the conversion.
+1000

OP, here's my itemized list. I even made some of these estimates
conservative, and I'll bet I still missed $5k worth of parts and
labor.

Item Cost Description
1 1000 Remove motor, clear front of car
2 4000 Mock up motor placement
3 3000 Relocate existing fixtures and electronics
4 1500 Install motor
5 1000 Finishing details of vehicle front end
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 2000 Revalve shocks
14 15000 S85 Motor
15 800 MSS65 DME
16 7000 Custom vehicle coding to mate MSS65 with E9x
17 4000 Custom headers
18 2500 Custom exhaust
19 2000 Custom radiator & Oil cooler
20 5000 Custom programming DCT for new torque limits and shift
points
21 2000 Misc. parts
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29

Total 50800

This was assuming you really COULD get an S85 for cheap ($15k).
Now show me your list that totals $30k.
__________________
NO FEAR.NO LIMITS.NO EQUAL

Ess VT3 LC built motor,Volk TE37SL,Euro taillights,Dinan Xpipe,Custom Headers,Akra axle back CF tips,ModeCarbon FR lip,BMW CF wing
LOW BOOST 60-130 6.7 sec
IMG is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 05:45 PM   #30
M3SQRD
Colonel
 
M3SQRD's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3s, R56 Cooper S
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: EC

Posts: 2,420
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
+1000

OP, here's my itemized list. I even made some of these estimates
conservative, and I'll bet I still missed $5k worth of parts

This was assuming you really COULD get an S85 for cheap ($15k).
Now show me your list that totals $30k.
Does your motor cost include the harness?

I've heard the cost of the factory harness is not cheap.

Donnie
M3SQRD is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 07:02 PM   #31
Stainless 45
Lieutenant
 
Stainless 45's Avatar
 
Drives: Last of the V-8 Interceptors
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Long Island, NY

Posts: 441
iTrader: (1)

$7k for coding and $5k for remapping the DCT? Come on....

People have been shoehorning huge motors into small cars for decades. This can be done, and with some decent fabrication skills and and a knowledgeable tuner, probably a lot cheaper than people think. As the link I provided states, Manhart did it using almost exclusively factory BMW parts. Get access to an M5 that's been totaled in a rear end collision and cannibalize most of your parts right there.
__________________
2011.5 LeMans Blue e92 DCT, ZCP, European Delivery. Black Edition Grilles, No Keyhole or Reflectors, Rear Fogs Enabled, Encore Innovation Exhaust, LUX Angel Eyes, 255x285's. "Last of the V-8 Interceptors, a real piece of history..."
Stainless 45 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 07:14 PM   #32
BMW Fanatic
Banned
 
Drives: slow
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary

Posts: 3,314
iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless 45 View Post
$7k for coding and $5k for remapping the DCT? Come on....

People have been shoehorning huge motors into small cars for decades. This can be done, and with some decent fabrication skills and and a knowledgeable tuner, probably a lot cheaper than people think. As the link I provided states, Manhart did it using almost exclusively factory BMW parts. Get access to an M5 that's been totaled in a rear end collision and cannibalize most of your parts right there.
+1, and I'm sure you can make a pretty penny on your S65 V8, it's probably more desirable than the S85 V10 to many people especially big tuning companies and people that have a blown engine outside of warranty!
BMW Fanatic is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 07:17 PM   #33
M3PO
Colonel
 
M3PO's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 IB E92
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: OC

Posts: 2,708
iTrader: (6)

Has anyone seen this:

M3PO is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 07:34 PM   #34
Canuckles
Private First Class
 
Canuckles's Avatar
 
Drives: MW 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: British Columbia

Posts: 181
iTrader: (0)

Or this:

Canuckles is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 07:46 PM   #35
duk
///M
 
Drives: 2011 AW/FR 6MT E92
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Jose, CA

Posts: 2,930
iTrader: (0)

Would be an amazing transplant esp with 6spd manual
__________________
2011 AW/FR 6MT E92 | Powered by Premier | Alekshop | ESS |
Rok n Peace Clothing: www.roknpeace.com

duk is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 09:51 PM   #36
rye m3
Lieutenant
 
rye m3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011.75 E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New York

Posts: 489
iTrader: (2)

Wow, VBT did an amazing job with the coach work as well. Not a fan of tufted leather on the interior, but the sides are really well done. BMW should take note.
__________________
E92 M3 MR on Red/Black ZCP Sound
Carbon

2007 997S - sold
2003 E46 M3 Steel Grey on Red- sold
1997 E36 M3 Arctic Silver on Black- sold
rye m3 is offline   Switzerland
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 10:46 PM   #37
JerezblackM3
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: e92 m3 dct
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: lebanon

Posts: 224
iTrader: (0)

S85 has been swapped into a Subaru sti! It would feel more at home in an m3
JerezblackM3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 11:03 PM   #38
CMM3
Private First Class
 
CMM3's Avatar
 
Drives: E90
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA

Posts: 169
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
+1000

OP, here's my itemized list. I even made some of these estimates
conservative, and I'll bet I still missed $5k worth of parts and
labor.

Item Cost Description
1 1000 Remove motor, clear front of car
2 4000 Mock up motor placement
3 3000 Relocate existing fixtures and electronics
4 1500 Install motor
5 1000 Finishing details of vehicle front end
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 2000 Revalve shocks
14 15000 S85 Motor
15 800 MSS65 DME
16 7000 Custom vehicle coding to mate MSS65 with E9x
17 4000 Custom headers
18 2500 Custom exhaust
19 2000 Custom radiator & Oil cooler
20 5000 Custom programming DCT for new torque limits and shift
points
21 2000 Misc. parts
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29

Total 50800

This was assuming you really COULD get an S85 for cheap ($15k).
Now show me your list that totals $30k.
You forgot:

800 To fill up the tank with 93
4000 to dyno the engine
6500 to break it in
3500 to change the oil on the S85
600 to look up for an S85 on ebay
1800 for Internet bill
1500 to open thread on M3post

__________________
"All our knowledge has its origins in our perceptions."
-Leonardo Da Vinci
CMM3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-07-2011, 11:36 PM   #39
Ateam
Banned
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA

Posts: 1,109
iTrader: (0)

I was somewhat exagerating regardin doing it for the sound alone. I do really think the sound is not beatable unless you go exotic and I have heard every combo the m3 aftermarket has to offer and I am not saying many do not sound good but they just to not have the F1 shriek of the m5 which I know many do not like but I personally love.

To be honest the m3 is a bit underpowered if you really want to have a contender against a lot of cars out there in terms of pulling power and straight line speed. Not saying everyone feels this way but I think 500hp is a perfect m3 number.

For me it is more about having fun and having a project to do that is unique and would be something I could hang onto for a long time since it would be the last V10 probably ever produced by any car maker in naturally aspirated form.

Something about having a v10 as well. Its one of those things on the bucket list to just have the feeling every day of v10 at your disposal. I had a very hard time deciding between a used m5/m6 and an m3 but at the end of the day I am a bit weak and really love new cars so those were out unfortunately. I wish they had kept building them even a year longer. But I went back and forth.

Anyway I am not saying this is the most cost effective way to get power or the best way to spend money but I think a lot of m3 owners would agree that this would be one of the best projects that anyone could think of with this car.
Ateam is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-08-2011, 07:21 AM   #40
IMG
VT3
 
IMG's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3 Track car,Ess E90 M3 DD
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Couch

Posts: 6,970
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarnes
Does your motor cost include the harness?
No, I forgot about the harnesses. I think you can safely add $2k-$3k for harnesses, and another $4k for the reverse-engineering and work to splice them all together.

So that puts the cost at $56,800...and probably still climbing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless 45
$7k for coding and $5k for remapping the DCT? Come on....
Yes, absolutely.

Quote:
People have been shoehorning huge motors into small cars for decades. This can be done, and with some decent fabrication skills and and a knowledgeable tuner, probably a lot cheaper than people think. As the link I provided states, Manhart did it using almost exclusively factory BMW parts. Get access to an M5 that's been totaled in a rear end collision and cannibalize most of your parts right there.
The problem isn't tuning, the MSS65 already has the tuning built in. The problem is vehicle coding...and that's completely different than tuning. Manhart got away with this because they have direct access to BMW factory guys who helped with the project. If you're lucky, you'll find somebody smart enough to reverse engineer the CAN bus protocol. And if you're REALLY lucky, the MSS65 will talk the same protocol with the same CANBUS messages as the MSS60. Even though Manhart made this happen with the help of factory BMW engineers, there's no guarantee that the MSS65 will even be compatible with the CAN BUS messages used by the E9x M3. If they're not compatible,

In reality, we already know the MSS65 has many different needs and requirements than the MSS60. They have different air sensor methods, different number of cylinders, etc. The E9x CID isn't programmed to recognize the special errors that may be emitted by the MSS65. So now what are you going to do...just drive around with a car that lights up like a Christmas tree with error codes? Maybe that method is good enough for a guy who "shoehorns" huge motors into small cars for decades, but it's not good enough if you want the job done right.

To get the job done right, there will be tons of work, reverse engineering just to find out what's compatible and what's not. Then once you figure that much out, you have to figure out what to do, and how to handle the incompatibilities. So you think $7k is too much? No, $7k might even be conservative. And there's no guarantee that it will even work without rewriting the operating system on the MSS65 and CID. If you don't have direct BMW factory support like Manhart did, then there's a good chance you will never get this to work properly. "Working properly" is defined as if it came from BMW themselves -- not by disconnecting all error codes and/or the dash being lit up like a Christmas tree.

If you still think $7k is too much, then I don't think you've given much thought to the problem or have a very simplistic and inaccurate view of what's involved.

Then comes the DCT. Maybe you'll get lucky and won't need to program the DCT. But if you do...who knows how to do it? Who has the $50k programming tools that it takes to rewrite the DCT software? Still think $5k is too much? $5k is only too much if it doesn't need to get done.
__________________
NO FEAR.NO LIMITS.NO EQUAL

Ess VT3 LC built motor,Volk TE37SL,Euro taillights,Dinan Xpipe,Custom Headers,Akra axle back CF tips,ModeCarbon FR lip,BMW CF wing
LOW BOOST 60-130 6.7 sec
IMG is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-08-2011, 07:54 AM   #41
M3SQRD
Colonel
 
M3SQRD's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3s, R56 Cooper S
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: EC

Posts: 2,420
iTrader: (2)

For the e30 M3 s85 swap a lot of time and money was spent designing a custom intake + manifold to get the car to run properly. Good luck if you think all M5/M6 OEM parts can be used! A lot of custom design and fabrication required...

However, I will say seeing, and hearing, a Dinan-stroked s85 in an e30 M3 is awesome! The already flared fenders were flared some more to get as much tire on the car as possible and that thing still has trouble putting all of its power to the ground
M3SQRD is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 07:46 PM   #42
RuthlessE90
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: FAST
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NYC

Posts: 324
iTrader: (5)

This topic I've been thinking about for the longest. coming from the jdm side if things I've done a few motors swaps in my time my last being a ls2 in my 97 240sx with complete drive by wire. The list that IMg posted come on dude really 70k?!?!?. If the op has to pay someone to remove the motor out of this own car this thread should just be closed... This swap can be done for 30-35k or maybe more depending on your fab skills. And how much ecu managment etc cost. Now the problem with this swap is the computer stuff vanos etc. Headers, radiator, and motor placement will be tight but not the hardest part of the swap. My question is how many engine management systems.... Stand alones etc can work for a swap like this ? any who makes them. I hear BMW Motorsports makes a standalone that's about 10k. So between engine and computer approx 20k and another 15k for the rest of the swap. Its my understanding that the 6mt from the s65 mates up nice with the s85. F flappy paddles !!!!! Manhart racing has done this swap why would they even do this if it cost 70k. That's enuff to buy another m3.
__________________
RuthlessE90 is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 09:16 PM   #43
kmarei
Major General
 
kmarei's Avatar
 
Drives: 1988 E30 M3 Evo II
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reston, VA

Posts: 6,479
iTrader: (33)

Garage List
At the risk of saying something really stupid
And to my defense, I have no knowledge of exhausts.
But before you spend all this money
Can't you try to fit an M5 exhaust to this car?
Or is that a no go?
__________________
This user has been banned from the 4 series forum because he doesn't sing its merits like the admins want us all to

kmarei is offline   Egypt
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:24 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST