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      06-15-2007, 09:59 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
Quote from M5board

The e60 M5 is one of the best with only 7% loss - 465bhp at the wheels

Yikes, missed that one bmwzimmer...
http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--M5-Dyno-Sheets.html

OOOPS, My bad, I was basing my 430 whp number on actual Dyno graphs and not some random advertisement. Sorry about that....
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      06-15-2007, 10:26 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwzimmer View Post
http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--M5-Dyno-Sheets.html

OOOPS, My bad, I was basing my 430 whp number on actual Dyno graphs and not some random advertisement. Sorry about that....
Yeah, you're probably right. The guys on M5board wouldn't have any idea of what they are talking about...
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      06-15-2007, 10:52 AM   #47
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M5 has about a 14% drivetrain loss. So based on this loss, I assumed the E92 will make 356 rwhp. I rounded up to 360 to give it the benefit of the doubt. This is already considerably more than the E46's 280-285 rwhp so it will no doubt be quicker despite the added 233 lbs that comes with it.
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      06-15-2007, 10:55 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwzimmer View Post
M5 has about a 14% drivetrain loss. So based on this loss, I assumed the E92 will make 356 rwhp. I rounded up to 360 to give it the benefit of the doubt. This is already considerably more than the E46's 280-285 rwhp so it will no doubt be quicker despite the added 233 lbs that comes with it.

Not according to the website below......even if you don't believe the absolute number as it can change with dynos.....look at the relative number between BMW and Audi......

BMWs rock because they took huge measures in reducing the rotating resistance of the engine...stuff like electric pumps / clutches for accessories.... it is good enough to expose the true loses from the tranny / axles... whether you believe 6, 7, 10, 14% loss....look at the relative numbers.
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      06-15-2007, 11:05 AM   #49
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Well, regardless what the actual Loss percentage is, BOTTOM LINE is E60 M5's are making between 390-435 hp bone stock at various Dynos across the USA under various environmental conditions and fuels.
Wow, the BMW marketing guys really got you hooked. I don't think there's such thing as a car with less than 10% drivetrain loss. Mabe a Prius or Civic Hybrid???
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      06-15-2007, 11:27 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwzimmer View Post
Well, regardless what the actual Loss percentage is, BOTTOM LINE is E60 M5's are making between 390-435 hp bone stock at various Dynos across the USA under various environmental conditions and fuels.
Wow, the BMW marketing guys really got you hooked. I don't think there's such thing as a car with less than 10% drivetrain loss. Mabe a Prius or Civic Hybrid???

So you say.

If you look at the numbers for the 335i, it is showing 6% loss. Either the 335i is "underrated" or BMW have made some innovations on the efficiency....which will carry over to the M3 (which is what this thread all about).
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      06-15-2007, 11:48 AM   #51
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Everyone and their grandma knows the 335i is underrated. This has been beaten to death already. Many manufacturers underrate horsepower (Z06, Mustang Cobras, Japanese Sport cars in the 90's, ect...) It's nothing new to most people.
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      06-15-2007, 11:58 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwzimmer View Post
Everyone and their grandma knows the 335i is underrated. This has been beaten to death already. Many manufacturers underrate horsepower (Z06, Mustang Cobras, Japanese Sport cars in the 90's, ect...) It's nothing new to most people.
So, the 335 is the only one in the BMW lineup that is underrated?

Just leave it alone...
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      06-15-2007, 12:47 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesier1111 View Post
I won't flame you..........great rant, I read every bit of it, and you're not wrong. And deep down it is how i feel the same way, I guess I just put the Ms on a pedestal, and don't want a 335 biting at her heels. I guess I have to admit, I'm just praying the E92M3 shows up to the party and everyone bows, backs off and reins her king (or queen) as she has always been.
After reading what the competition is going to come out with over the next couple of years, I would categorize the M3 as a prince/ss not a king or queen as in years past. Don't get me wrong. The M3 is still on my list, but I got to admit that I have a jaundiced eye on the competition.
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      06-15-2007, 02:11 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwzimmer View Post
Everyone and their grandma knows the 335i is underrated. This has been beaten to death already. Many manufacturers underrate horsepower (Z06, Mustang Cobras, Japanese Sport cars in the 90's, ect...) It's nothing new to most people.
Great... Is this your explanation of the 6% achieved by the group below? How can you explain the 7% the M5 gets on the same equipment?

Is the M5 underrated?
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      06-15-2007, 02:29 PM   #55
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true

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtown View Post
Don't worry ... the modded 335i will be on the side of the road trying to cool off after 2 runs.
he's got you threre!
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      06-15-2007, 03:35 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocRoss View Post
he's got you threre!
You obviously didn't read my response to that.
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      06-15-2007, 03:40 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Great... Is this your explanation of the 6% achieved by the group below? How can you explain the 7% the M5 gets on the same equipment?

Is the M5 underrated?
T-Bone, you have no links or dyno statistics (more than 1 dyno) to back up your claim that the M5 has an ungodly 7% drivetrain loss. I've posted a link showing 10 M5 Dynos all ranging from 390-435hp. Where the heck are your dyno charts showing 460+hp @ the wheels? You have nothing to back up your statement.
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      06-15-2007, 04:25 PM   #58
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The 335i will overheat after a few track runs... No comparsion between the 335 and M3.
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      06-15-2007, 05:38 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwzimmer View Post
T-Bone, you have no links or dyno statistics (more than 1 dyno) to back up your claim that the M5 has an ungodly 7% drivetrain loss. I've posted a link showing 10 M5 Dynos all ranging from 390-435hp. Where the heck are your dyno charts showing 460+hp @ the wheels? You have nothing to back up your statement.

You have the best data available the 335i / M5 / RS5 run on the same dyno. 335i showing 6%, M5 7% and RS4 17%. As I wrote, forgetting the absolute values, please try to explain what there is only 1% difference between drivetrain losses on the 335i and M5?
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      06-15-2007, 06:12 PM   #60
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You need to work backwards when figuring out what a car actually makes at the crank and automatically assume a 15% drivetrain loss. This is pretty common practice.
Here, M5 Dyno link and 335 Dyno link.
http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--335i-Dyno-Sheets.html
http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--M5-Dyno-Sheets.html
Stock 335i's make around 275hp
Stock M5's make around 430hp
With a 15% drivetrain loss, the M5 makes 500hp at the crank. This means the claimed figures are accurate for the M5.
E46 M3 makes 280hp at the wheels so with a 15% loss, that's close to 333 at the crank. So the claimed figures are accurate for the M3
Using this same formula on the 335i equals 325hp at the crank based on these dyno numbers proving the factory claim of 300hp at the crank UNDERRATED.

Why is this so hard to understand?
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      06-15-2007, 06:15 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_2010 View Post
The 335i will overheat after a few track runs... No comparsion between the 335 and M3.

Early production 335i w/ Steptronics did not have an oil cooler. Current ones do have the cooler and you can get it fitted upon request so oil temps are no longer an issue.

Can you find a link of someone with a 335i and a proper oil cooler that was sidetracked due to the engine overheating? Keep searching there buddy and good luck finding a link.

I agree with your statement that they don't compare on the track but don't make false claims about the car overheating. The issue has been taken care of.
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      06-15-2007, 06:22 PM   #62
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This has already been beaten to death!
Just let it die, i guess we can't blame all those 335i owners wanting their time in the sun before the M3 arrives and rightfully assumes it's mantle as the ultimate 3 series car to have.
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      06-15-2007, 06:28 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW //MPOWER View Post
This has already been beaten to death!
Just let it die, i guess we can't blame all those 335i owners wanting their time in the sun before the M3 arrives and rightfully assumes it's mantle as the ultimate 3 series car to have.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA +1
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      06-15-2007, 11:03 PM   #64
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I'm just not that impressed with next m3. If it can beat the RS4 in the ring i would be impressed but that's not happening right now
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      06-15-2007, 11:13 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwzimmer View Post
I'm just not that impressed with next m3. If it can beat the RS4 in the ring i would be impressed but that's not happening right now

Are you willing to wager on this? A friendly one.
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      06-16-2007, 12:41 AM   #66
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335i are pretty impressive though. There is a thread on the regular 3 forums showing 335i's 0-60 in 4.4-4.5s with proceed.
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