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      11-03-2011, 08:26 AM   #45
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Add 100 bucks or whatever it costs to siamese the crossover more completely and I think it'd be a good value. As it sits now it looks worse than the OEM unit with the primary cats removed.
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      11-03-2011, 10:27 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Add 100 bucks or whatever it costs to siamese the crossover more completely and I think it'd be a good value. As it sits now it looks worse than the OEM unit with the primary cats removed.
Does the crossover really look much worse than the Challenge crossover?

http://www.europeanautosource.com/pr...catless-e9x-m3

Look at image 3 of 8.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-E92-E93-...172#vi-content

Look at image 8 of 9.
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      11-03-2011, 11:03 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannys M3 View Post
This statement is completely false. I would like to know your qualifications to say this. I have been certified as a CWI (certified weld inspector) by the American Welding Society and I am currently qualified to do VISUAL WELD inspections at a Nuclear Facility. If you want to talk about pressure retaining welds then yes I also do radiography and ultrasound. The visual appearance of a weld has everything to do with its structural integrity. This is a gas tungsten arc weld also known as TIG (tungsten inert gas), you should look for adequate fusion at the toe of the weld beads and porosity. The welds are difficult to see. The photo of the "X" section show welds of less than desirable quality but I highly doubt they will come apart. The prices currently being charged are ridiculous.
The X-pipe posted in the original post is not TIG welded. Only in some small parts it is which matter the least. It is a polished out and smoothed out MIG.

Unfortunately, the hard part is helping people understand that a U.S. made unit, the cost of the high grade stainless steel would cost far more than 400 dollars alone, and this does not reflect the manufacturing costs or any other costs associated with the unit.

There are many members on this forum that can attest to having the cheaper quality x-pipes and what has happened to them after some decent amount of use.
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      11-03-2011, 11:30 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannys M3 View Post
This statement is completely false. I would like to know your qualifications to say this. I have been certified as a CWI (certified weld inspector) by the American Welding Society and I am currently qualified to do VISUAL WELD inspections at a Nuclear Facility. If you want to talk about pressure retaining welds then yes I also do radiography and ultrasound. The visual appearance of a weld has everything to do with its structural integrity. This is a gas tungsten arc weld also known as TIG (tungsten inert gas), you should look for adequate fusion at the toe of the weld beads and porosity. The welds are difficult to see. The photo of the "X" section show welds of less than desirable quality but I highly doubt they will come apart. The prices currently being charged are ridiculous.
thanks for adding some sanity to this discussion
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      11-03-2011, 11:32 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
Agreed, I still like the Turner Pipes as it allows you to keep the OEM rear resonators and cats. However, for those that want to go catless I would go for it. This is what this pipe should have cost from the get go..people spending 1000s of dollars for some mandrel bent stainless tubing is utterly ridiculous.
As far as pairing this up with a Megan Exhaust, it would be way loud. My car is borderline with the OEM rear cats and resonators. Its quiet if I keep my foot out of it, but as soon as I crack the throttle...look out.

Malek, I respect your opinion immensely..but I have to say this is what an xpipe without cats or resonators should cost. You start adding cats and resonators, especially high quality 200cpi cats then of course the cost is going up considerably.
Also, I spent a lot of money on parts for my E46 M3 (SuperSprint..cough, cough) and the midpipe along with the flange on the headers broke....only tracked the car once at Willow Springs but most of the time it was just a street car. My Eisenmann Race broke the brackets 3 times..finally had it replaced, sold it and bought a Borla with absolutely no issues for 3 whole years.

Dave
Max Producer Surplus = Consumer surplus is 0... They will charge the Maximum amount,we are willing to pay....simply Economics... Again if we are talking about adding a good quaility Cat.. that changes everything.. for tubes..there is not that much difference in terms of quailty to justify 1000 dollar difference in price.
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      11-03-2011, 11:45 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
The X-pipe posted in the original post is not TIG welded. Only in some small parts it is which matter the least. It is a polished out and smoothed out MIG.

Unfortunately, the hard part is helping people understand that a U.S. made unit, the cost of the high grade stainless steel would cost far more than 400 dollars alone, and this does not reflect the manufacturing costs or any other costs associated with the unit.

There are many members on this forum that can attest to having the cheaper quality x-pipes and what has happened to them after some decent amount of use.
The question is do we really need the high grade stainless steel to make a good working exhaust? There is no doubt that the high grade stainless steel will cost considerably more than 400 in marterial..Then we are back to the question, do we really need that for the car or is it just another reason for people to justify their insanely amount of spending on an exhaust? As far as I knew, exhaust can be made from highest grade aircraft alumium or carbon fiber which will cost even more than 5k..Again do we really need it on the street? the answer is no.. we need a simple exhaust that doesn't rust or break apart after a reasonable amount of street and track use...if you are seriously consider putting the car into real races, then by all mean go for the best out there..otherwise there is no point..
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      11-03-2011, 12:00 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhangzeyuandss View Post
The question is do we really need the high grade stainless steel to make a good working exhaust? There is no doubt that the high grade stainless steel will cost considerably more than 400 in marterial..Then we are back to the question, do we really need that for the car or is it just another reason for people to justify their insanely amount of spending on an exhaust? As far as I knew, exhaust can be made from highest grade aircraft alumium or carbon fiber which will cost even more than 5k..Again do we really need it on the street? the answer is no.. we need a simple exhaust that doesn't rust or break apart after a reasonable amount of street and track use...if you are seriously consider putting the car into real races, then by all mean go for the best out there..otherwise there is no point..
At the very least, SS304 is necessary and many manufacturers are not even using that, they are using aluminized steel which is polished out to look good. These types of units will not last, and as I mentioned earlier, there are members on this site that can attest to this.

While I do agree that things could be cheaper, but unfortunately, this isn't really possible if the unit is manufactured here in the U.S. Sure it is possible to send it oversees, but then the company would be opening the doors to a whole lot of other issues such as fitments, quality control, consistency, product being knocked off easily, no control over the quality of materials used.

I understand when people say Akrapovic is expensive, but it is also made of Ti.
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      11-03-2011, 12:12 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
At the very least, SS304 is necessary and many manufacturers are not even using that, they are using aluminized steel which is polished out to look good. These types of units will not last, and as I mentioned earlier, there are members on this site that can attest to this.

While I do agree that things could be cheaper, but unfortunately, this isn't really possible if the unit is manufactured here in the U.S. Sure it is possible to send it oversees, but then the company would be opening the doors to a whole lot of other issues such as fitments, quality control, consistency, product being knocked off easily, no control over the quality of materials used.

I understand when people say Akrapovic is expensive, but it is also made of Ti.
Yes. You are right. T304 is the basic and necessary grade for car exhaust. I don't know if this unit is made oversea or not but the seller stated it is made with T304 grade with TIG weld.
" Brand New TOP SPEED PRO-1 2.5" O.D. T304 Stainless Steel 1.8mm Thickness Material Exhaust Middle H-Pipe X-Pipe *** Mandrel Bend Piping + TIG Welding "
I guess it might worth a while to try it out. Since from everything I know, this has the same spec with some of the brands that sold on the forums for thousands..
Again Akrapovic is a different story as the purpose is not only about performance gain but also about weight saving and style.
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      11-03-2011, 12:19 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhangzeyuandss View Post
Yes. You are right. T304 is the basic and necessary grade for car exhaust. I don't know if this unit is made oversea or not but the seller stated it is made with T304 grade with TIG weld.
" Brand New TOP SPEED PRO-1 2.5" O.D. T304 Stainless Steel 1.8mm Thickness Material Exhaust Middle H-Pipe X-Pipe *** Mandrel Bend Piping + TIG Welding "
I guess it might worth a while to try it out. Since from everything I know, this has the same spec with some of the brands that sold on the forums for thousands..
Again Akrapovic is a different story as the purpose is not only about performance gain but also about weight saving and style.
We have installed tons of top-speed products for people.. Usually they need to be re-fabbed for fitment.

None of their products have even been entirely TIG, only the small portions have been TIG welded (such as 02 bungs, exhaust tips). The piping has for the most part been MIG welded. In most cases too, the steel had magnetic properties, something SS304 should not have. Sometimes, SS304 can become magnetized around the mandrel bend, but its always best to check the straight sections and thats when it became obvious what they were using.

On the E46 cars that would purchase the rear section mufflers, the customer had to go back to a fab shop and have the unit corrected because it did not fit and the tips were very crooked.
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      11-03-2011, 01:14 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
We have installed tons of top-speed products for people.. Usually they need to be re-fabbed for fitment.

None of their products have even been entirely TIG, only the small portions have been TIG welded (such as 02 bungs, exhaust tips). The piping has for the most part been MIG welded. In most cases too, the steel had magnetic properties, something SS304 should not have. Sometimes, SS304 can become magnetized around the mandrel bend, but its always best to check the straight sections and thats when it became obvious what they were using.

On the E46 cars that would purchase the rear section mufflers, the customer had to go back to a fab shop and have the unit corrected because it did not fit and the tips were very crooked.
Hmm. Interesting. I guess that makes sense, I don't want to deal with fitment issues. I have the Akra slip on, and that thing is a work of art.
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      11-03-2011, 02:08 PM   #55
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Holy rasp batman. No resonators should be loud but also crazy raspy!
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      11-03-2011, 02:30 PM   #56
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Challenge and others sell no resonator midpipes, for twice as much or more.

Plenty of people have used Top Speed replica midpipes and exhausts with no problems.

If I was a competitor selling cheap chinese parts like some of the other "name brand" exhaust sellers, I would be worried and doing whatever I could to put down the Top Speed part.

Some of the competitors do make very nice parts. I like the Borla quad resonator midpipe. I would have no qualms about Borla's quality control. But if a no-name part comes out with dual resonators for half the price, I would be tempted. I have had two no-name exhausts before, a set of headers and a rear exhaust, and neither gave me any issues.
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      11-03-2011, 04:30 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pablo e92 View Post
thanks for adding some sanity to this discussion
The insanity is the price people are paying, check the link below for reasonable prices for materials.

http://www.spdexhaust.com/pdfs/2011_Price_Guide.pdf
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      11-03-2011, 06:24 PM   #58
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OH GOD its a 400$ full xpipe not a big deal LOL

This shit is funny im glad for those who spend crazy amount on xpipe ... But shit OEM gutted xpipe will have the same outcome as the aftermaket...
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      11-03-2011, 07:12 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Sean05 View Post
OEM gutted xpipe will have the same outcome as the aftermaket...
This is highly incorrect and provable Sean.
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      11-03-2011, 08:11 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post

Unfortunately, the hard part is helping people understand that a U.S. made unit, the cost of the high grade stainless steel would cost far more than 400 dollars alone, and this does not reflect the manufacturing costs or any other costs associated with the unit.
So lets take for example the gintani x pipe @ $2000. Do you really think its worth that much with manufacturing cost and other costs associated with the unit? Oh wait they don't even manfacture it.

http://www.fastintentions.com/index....0c86b0403b89bd
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      11-03-2011, 08:21 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannys M3 View Post
So lets take for example the gintani x pipe @ $2000. Do you really think its worth that much with manufacturing cost and other costs associated with the unit? Oh wait they don't even manfacture it.

http://www.fastintentions.com/index....0c86b0403b89bd
Whoa...you learn something new everyday. I never knew that Gintani's exhaust was designed and fabricated by Fast Intentions.

I personally think the best XPipe on the market right now is the MRF Engineering XPipe. Amongst all the XPipes, they seem to be one of the few that implements a true XPipe and at a theoretically ideal location of a V8. Hopefully we get to see more reviews and dynos of their products in the near future.

Although, I am still rather curious to hear Sean05's impressions of the TopSpeed XPipe. Hopefully he doesn't run into any problems, especially in the long run.
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      11-03-2011, 08:38 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
This is highly incorrect and provable Sean.
So let me ask you this. How much of a difference would there be between a OEM x-pipe which has primary cats swapped out for test pipes? And say another 'quality' x pipe? Performance wise that is...

Because honestly I want to to do that..keeping the secondary cats and resonators as to lessen sound and smell.. but at the same time gaining power.
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      11-04-2011, 11:34 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekrul View Post
So let me ask you this. How much of a difference would there be between a OEM x-pipe which has primary cats swapped out for test pipes? And say another 'quality' x pipe? Performance wise that is...

Because honestly I want to to do that..keeping the secondary cats and resonators as to lessen sound and smell.. but at the same time gaining power.
There is a pretty substantial difference in total power and torque gain, and how the power is gained within the powerband.

The factory unit is not a true x-pipe by any means. I have cut the factory x-pipe apart to see what BMW did inside of their so called "X" and it is a joke. The internal merge is roughly 1.1" in diameter.

The secondary cats to help the smell a little bit.

Power wise as a test, I have run a full catless modified OEM unit, and the gains were very marginal at its best. Power delivery was erratic because exhaust design requires engineering and tuning to compliment the powerplant.

Deleting cats does free up some power, but that is not where all the power lies.
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      11-04-2011, 11:43 AM   #64
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It looks like Vishnu gained 13 rwhp and 28 lbs rwtq from welding straight pipes in place of the cats on a stock midpipe, with no tune.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585325

I am sure there are some dynos around of "name brand" catless midpipes, with no tune. I would think that nice mandrel bending and maybe a better X section would be worth a few rhwp, though I am not sure how perfect the X needs to be in order to have the desired balancing and/or scavenging effect.
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      11-04-2011, 01:51 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
There is a pretty substantial difference in total power and torque gain, and how the power is gained within the powerband.

The factory unit is not a true x-pipe by any means. I have cut the factory x-pipe apart to see what BMW did inside of their so called "X" and it is a joke. The internal merge is roughly 1.1" in diameter.

The secondary cats to help the smell a little bit.

Power wise as a test, I have run a full catless modified OEM unit, and the gains were very marginal at its best. Power delivery was erratic because exhaust design requires engineering and tuning to compliment the powerplant.

Deleting cats does free up some power, but that is not where all the power lies.
Hmm interesting. What are your thoughts on systems that don't throw CELS? do they actually gain solid power? Because honestly I don't want to mess with software quite yet.
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      11-04-2011, 02:33 PM   #66
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If you don't want to change the software to accomodate catless running, then you should stick with a pipe that eliminates just one set of cats or that substitutes high flow cats for the one set that remains. No CEL, emissions passability, substantial power gains, and closer to the ability of the stock ECU to adapt to take advantage of the improved flow. You can find dynos for these kinds of x pipes with some searching. Fabspeed makes one, Sosi makes one, Turner sells cat delete pipes for the stock exhaust, AA and Challenge and Akrapovic and others sell complete pipes with high flow cats, etc.
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