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      10-31-2011, 10:38 AM   #23
robb7979
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Has anyone heard about gear ratio differences? That could account for a small difference in mileage. I have a little thing in my gas tank. It eats $60 in gas pretty damn quick
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      10-31-2011, 10:49 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
but if the "guy" told him that
maybe we are all wrong?
That's always a possibility...

If a US-based tuning company reflashes a Euro-spec DME do they use a Euro-spec tune or a US-based tune adjusted for fuel quality or just a straight US-based tune? I know people in Europe are running reflashed Euro DMEs from US-based tuning companies.
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      10-31-2011, 01:33 PM   #25
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When my car came to Europe i changed the software in radio, board computer etc.. So there is no difference between Gallon and Liters, am i wrong? The board computer shows me the details in liters and the difference between US and Europe spec in the SAME conditions are completely different. We were driving next to each other non stop for 170 km (motorway etc) and the difference was 3,9 liters.. its not 0,1 liter so there needs to be a difference. I wanted to put the European map in my engine but i have already said what are the results. The last thing which might have an influence in consumption is that US spec is set to 91 Octan petrol but in Europe we put at least 95 Octan. I arranged the meeting with the Guy from BMW Motorsport department today and in 2 weeks when i go to Germany i will visit him and ask specifically. I will let you Guys what he said. To sum up i prefer to look at practical point of View, not checking the theory... In test it might be the same but my experience tells me that its not...
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      10-31-2011, 01:45 PM   #26
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[quote=Obrfso;10714997]When my car came to Europe i changed the software in radio, board computer etc.. So there is no difference between Gallon and Liters, am i wrong? The board computer shows me the details in liters and the difference between US and Europe spec in the SAME conditions are completely different. We were driving next to each other non stop for 170 km (motorway etc) and the difference was 3,9 liters.. its not 0,1 liter so there needs to be a difference. I wanted to put the European map in my engine but i have already said what are the results. The last thing which might have an influence in consumption is that US spec is set to 91 Octan petrol but in Europe we put at least 95 Octan. I arranged the meeting with the Guy from BMW Motorsport department today and in 2 weeks when i go to Germany i will visit him and ask specifically. I will let you Guys what he said. To sum up i prefer to look at practical point of View, not checking the theory... In test it might be the same but my experience tells me that its not...[/QU

In Europe fuel octane is rated with RON...Research Octane Number, in the US it is represented with the AKI( Anti Knock Index) this is an average of the euro RON and MON (a different way to test fuel rating) In the end, the result is Euro Ron is 4-5 octane higher than US AKI... Hence US 91 octane is the SAME as Euro 95. It is a misconception that Europe offers higher octane than the US. I use 93 octane shell fuel religously which is the SAME as Euro 98 octane shell... hope this helps
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      10-31-2011, 02:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My3rdM3 View Post
In Europe fuel octane is rated with RON...Research Octane Number, in the US it is represented with the AKI( Anti Knock Index) this is an average of the euro RON and MON (a different way to test fuel rating) In the end, the result is Euro Ron is 4-5 octane higher than US AKI... Hence US 91 octane is the SAME as Euro 95. It is a misconception that Europe offers higher octane than the US. I use 93 octane shell fuel religously which is the SAME as Euro 98 octane shell... hope this helps
Thank you. Another myth dispelled.
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      10-31-2011, 02:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obrfso View Post
When my car came to Europe i changed the software in radio, board computer etc.. So there is no difference between Gallon and Liters, am i wrong? The board computer shows me the details in liters and the difference between US and Europe spec in the SAME conditions are completely different. We were driving next to each other non stop for 170 km (motorway etc) and the difference was 3,9 liters.. its not 0,1 liter so there needs to be a difference. I wanted to put the European map in my engine but i have already said what are the results. The last thing which might have an influence in consumption is that US spec is set to 91 Octan petrol but in Europe we put at least 95 Octan. I arranged the meeting with the Guy from BMW Motorsport department today and in 2 weeks when i go to Germany i will visit him and ask specifically. I will let you Guys what he said. To sum up i prefer to look at practical point of View, not checking the theory... In test it might be the same but my experience tells me that its not...

Let us know what you find out. A lot of the guys on here being jerks have never seen anything outside of what they read on the internet. There are many differences between the emissions in US and Euro Spec cars. I am not saying that the M3 falls in this category but some of my cars get far better economy than their US spec counterparts owned by people I know. Both claimed and real life.

Keep up the practical research and keep us informed


I know that many things go into the calculations for MPG and l/100km but it is interesting that EPA rates the M3 at 20MPG highway but here we get a spec of 8.5 l/100km with the DCT and 9.3 with the 6 speed on the highway. That is equal to 27.5 US MPG and 25 US MPG. Why the difference of 7.5 MPG and 5 MPG highway between the way the two systems measure?

Last edited by Mitchell; 10-31-2011 at 02:51 PM.
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      10-31-2011, 02:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post
Let us know what you find out. A lot of the guys on here being jerks have never seen anything outside of what they read on the internet. There are many differences between the emissions in US and Euro Spec cars. I am not saying that the M3 falls in this category but some of my cars get far better economy than their US spec counterparts owned by people I know. Both claimed and real life.

Keep up the practical research and keep us informed
Actually I do believe there is a difference but it's all software. It may be emissions related or fuel related but not due to physical or octane characteristics. It's important to note that European emissions requirements are bent towards minimizing CO2 while U.S. emissions requirements are bent towards minimizing NO. Who knows what effect that has although I believe minimizing NO requires a fuel rich exhaust with heated cats to convert optimally. That could imply lesser fuel economy.
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      10-31-2011, 02:56 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Rakete View Post
Actually I do believe there is a difference but it's all software. It may be emissions related or fuel related but not due to physical or octane characteristics. It's important to note that European emissions requirements are bent towards minimizing CO2 while U.S. emissions requirements are bent towards minimizing NO. Who knows what effect that has although I believe minimizing NO requires a fuel rich exhaust with heated cats to convert optimally. That could imply lesser fuel economy.
You are correct to reduce NO in my experience you must add fuel. It is difficult to say what is right or what region is doing it right.
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      10-31-2011, 03:15 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post

I know that many things go into the calculations for MPG and l/100km but it is interesting that EPA rates the M3 at 20MPG highway but here we get a spec of 8.5 l/100km with the DCT and 9.3 with the 6 speed on the highway. That is equal to 27.5 US MPG and 25 US MPG. Why the difference of 7.5 MPG and 5 MPG highway between the way the two systems measure?
didn't you answer your own question? it's the different ways of measuring a test cycle by EPA and the EU counterpart:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
I'm pretty sure the difference in the printed MPG figures is the difference in European and American testing cycle standards and the difference between imperial miles vs US miles (yes there's a difference, you have to convert the figures properly).

Unless the figures you're seeing is from just on the engine itself versus the full vehicle (cycle) test, but you're comparing apples and oranges here.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml
http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/

Can't find a good Euro testing site, (maybe others can help)
http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269543/html/x787.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_ec...s#cite_note-23
In the European Union, passenger vehicles are commonly tested using two drive cycles, and corresponding fuel economies are reported as 'urban' and 'extra-urban', in liters per 100 km and (in the UK) in miles per imperial gallon.

The urban economy is measured using the test cycle known as ECE-15, introduced by the EEC Directive 90/C81/01 in 1999. It simulates a 4,052 m (2.518 mile) urban trip at an average speed of 18.7 km/h (11.6 mph) and at a maximum speed of 50 km/h (31 mph). The extra-urban cycle or EUDC lasts 400 seconds (6 minutes 40 seconds) at an average speed 62.6 km/h (39 mph) and a top speed of 120 km/h (74.6 mph).[24] EU fuel consumption numbers tend to be considerably lower than corresponding US EPA test results for the same vehicle. For example, the 2011 Honda CR-Z with a six-speed manual transmission is rated 6.1/4.4 l/100 km in Europe and 7.6/6.4 l/100 km in the United States

EPA thru 2007:

Two separate fuel economy tests simulate city driving and highway driving: the "city" driving program or Urban Dynamometer Driving Schedule or (UDDS) is defined in 40 C.F.R. 86 App I and consists of starting with a cold engine and making 23 stops over a period of 31 minutes for an average speed of 20 mph (32 km/h) and with a top speed of 56 mph (90 km/h).

The "highway" program or Highway Fuel Economy Driving Schedule (HWFET) is defined in 40 C.F.R. 600 App I and uses a warmed-up engine and makes no stops, averaging 48 mph (77 km/h) with a top speed of 60 mph (97 km/h) over a 10-mile (16 km) distance. The measurements are then adjusted downward by 10% (city) and 22% (highway) to more accurately reflect real-world results. A weight average of city (55%) and highway (45%) fuel economies is used to determine the guzzler tax.[30][31]

2008 and Beyond:
As a means of reflecting real world fuel economy more accurately, the EPA adds three new tests[34] that will combine with the current city and highway cycles to determine fuel economy of new vehicles, beginning with the 2008 model year.[35] A high speed/quick acceleration loops lasts 10 minutes, covers 8 miles (13 km), averages 48 mph (77 km/h) and reaches a top speed of 80 mph (130 km/h). Four stops are included, and brisk acceleration maximizes at a rate of 8.46 mph (13.62 km/h) per second. The engine begins warm and air conditioning is not used. Ambient temperature varies between 68 F (20 C) to 86 F (30 C). The air conditioning test raises ambient temperatures to 95 F (35 C), and the vehicle's climate control system is put to use. Lasting 9.9 minutes, the 3.6-mile (5.8 km) loop averages 22 mph (35 km/h) and maximizes at a rate of 54.8 mph (88.2 km/h). Five stops are included, idling occurs 19 percent of the time and acceleration of 5.1 mph/sec is achieved. Engine temperatures begin warm. Lastly, a cold temperature cycle uses the same parameters as the current city loop, except that ambient temperature is set to 20 F (−7 C).

EPA tests for fuel economy do not include electrical load tests beyond climate control, which may account for some of the discrepancy between EPA and real world fuel-efficiency. A 200 W electrical load can produce a 0.4 km/L (0.94 mpg) reduction in efficiency on the FTP 75 cycle test.[36]

Last edited by mdosu; 10-31-2011 at 03:20 PM.
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      10-31-2011, 03:30 PM   #32
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didn't you answer your own question? it's the different ways of measuring a test cycle by EPA and the EU counterpart:
I absolutely did not answer my own question nor did your cut and paste. While I stated that I fully understand the differences in testing I do not see room for 25-30% differences in the results. Nor do your findings explain the real world differences between two cars of the same trim level in two different specs.

Thank you
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      10-31-2011, 03:45 PM   #33
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Quote:
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I absolutely did not answer my own question nor did your cut and paste. While I stated that I fully understand the differences in testing I do not see room for 25-30% differences in the results. Nor do your findings explain the real world differences between two cars of the same trim level in two different specs.

Thank you
2011 Honda CR-Z with a six-speed manual transmission is rated 6.1/4.4 l/100 km in Europe and 7.6/6.4 l/100 km in the United States

(7.6 - 6.1)/6.1 = 24% change or 20% change looking at the reverse difference.
(6.4 - 4.4)/4.4 = 45% change or 31% change looking at the reverse difference.

But agreed on why is there difference in real world when OP's car is in Germany. How scientific was their measurement? How many times did they do it? Was it 1 observation? Ideally, you should have the same driver drive the exact same style (IE with cruise control) over the exact same course, then let us know if the difference is 6L/100km

Last edited by mdosu; 10-31-2011 at 03:55 PM.
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      11-01-2011, 05:29 PM   #34
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I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the fact that U.S. fuel contains ethanol. That will definitely cause discrepancy in fuel consumption between non-ethanol-blend users and ethanol-blend users. The difference will be noticeable.
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      11-01-2011, 05:39 PM   #35
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From an old aftermarket training pdf from 2007 that I don't remember where I found. This is the only difference between US and EU spec I remember finding.
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      11-01-2011, 06:10 PM   #36
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I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the fact that U.S. fuel contains ethanol. That will definitely cause discrepancy in fuel consumption between non-ethanol-blend users and ethanol-blend users. The difference will be noticeable.
My impression from the OP was that the two cars are located in Germany, and in fact in the same general area. If they aren't then the comparison is even more flawed. Different climates, elevation, geography, etc. could have an even bigger impact on the fuel economy than driving style.
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      11-01-2011, 06:16 PM   #37
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I am gritting my teeth, closing my eyes and ESPing this thread to die. This is the most retarded thread I've read in a long while...
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      11-01-2011, 07:15 PM   #38
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Quote:
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i think he got confused
EU version makes 420ps
US makes 414hp

corrected

420ps=414hp
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      11-01-2011, 07:30 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redline9001 View Post
corrected

420ps=414hp
Not exactly
I checked before i posted
On the BMW uk site
The M3 is listed as having 420hp, not 420ps
But that DIN hp, not SAE hp
As I said earlier

http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesand...-bmwuk,00.html
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      11-01-2011, 08:48 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Not exactly
I checked before i posted
On the BMW uk site
The M3 is listed as having 420hp, not 420ps
But that DIN hp, not SAE hp
As I said earlier

http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesand...-bmwuk,00.html
DIN hp = ps so you both are right
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