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      06-11-2007, 03:14 PM   #23
southlight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Whatever you and I say, we are speculating, but let's speculate:

I will make the following arguments:

1. There is serious Hp competition out there, and BMW cannot afford to release the M3 engine with significant undeveloped potential.
2. The M3 engine is already pushing current technological boundaries of the state-of-the-art.

I'll support these arguments with the following data on the M3, F430, and RS4 engines (I am attaching a table). Note that these V8 engines are pretty close in displacement. The BMW and Ferrari engines are especially similar in cylinder dimensions. As you can see, the Ferrari engine beats the M3 engine, but not by much. Assuming BMW tweaks things around and messes with the torque curve, it might be able to gain another 1-2 kW/liter for a total of 4-8 kW, but nothing more unless there is a major breakthrough in engine technology within the next 2-3 years. And look at how close the Audi figures are. Do you really think BMW is comfortable with that, and why wouldn’t they use whatever they’ve got to open up a gap?
I don't want to fight with you, but let me say this:

You're somewhat right with you points about the HP competition, but don't forget the whole package. More HP results in more weight due to heavier brakes, drivetrain and other stuff. So it CAN be reasonable for a company not to follow in the "HP war" to keep the car's total weight down. I couldn't swear or proof that it's that way with the M3, but can you or anybody refute it?

We're talking about the first M3 with a V8. There are some indications that the next generation will also get the same engine in another expansion stage. I did read anywhere that the development costs for this engine are such high that it has to be used for atleast two model generations. Apart from some fine tuning there are other possibilities to increase the power of the V8, for example higher Revs or more displacement or Direct Injection. So in my oppinion the M3's V8 is far away from being exhausted.

Question left is what will BMW do with the CSL engine!?

Best regards, south
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      06-11-2007, 03:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
I don't want to fight with you, but let me say this:

You're somewhat right with you points about the HP competition, but don't forget the whole package. More HP results in more weight due to heavier brakes, drivetrain and other stuff. So it CAN be reasonable for a company not to follow in the "HP war" to keep the car's total weight down. I couldn't swear or proof that it's that way with the M3, but can you or anybody refute it?

We're talking about the first M3 with a V8. There are some indications that the next generation will also get the same engine in another expansion stage. I did read anywhere that the development costs for this engine are such high that it has to be used for atleast two model generations. Apart from some fine tuning there are other possibilities to increase the power of the V8, for example higher Revs or more displacement or Direct Injection. So in my oppinion the M3's V8 is far away from being exhausted.

Question left is what will BMW do with the CSL engine!?

Best regards, south
No point in fighting about any of this. We should all be here to discuss and learn a few things...

Interesting point about more hp adds to the weight of other components. I haven't thought of it that way, and wouldn't refute it. It makes sense to me; it could be a possible strategy. But if that is really in their thinking, one would think they would have made it explicit.

Your second point: I guess that all has to do with one means by "exhausted". For an engineer who spends years on working on a cutting edge engine even a 1-2% gain could be very significant. To the consumer, maybe not, since the consumer is not familiar with what it takes to add 8 hp to an already well developed platform.

I am sure the BMW V8 will gain hp with time--the same way the Ferrari engine will gain hp. Engineers always seem to find a way to extract more power (Well never mind the limits put forward by thermodynamics. Actually many people don't understand those limits, thermal efficiency, etc. The game engineers are playing is not open-ended, and that's why the displacements keep going up). I think the real issue is, how much gain and how quickly. We are talking about 2-3 years for the CSL here. I don't think we'll be seeing 80hp gains or anything if displacement stays the same, but that's my opinion, and we'll all find out when the car comes out!

Regards,

Last edited by lucid; 06-12-2007 at 02:25 AM.
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      06-11-2007, 03:48 PM   #25
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The M3 Concept car at Geneva was said to contain a number of CSL parts by BMW executives

1 that comes to mind was the Alcantara steering wheel, which would probably feature on the CSL


Word is also that it uses a large intake box, that needs the a bigger bonnet bulge and uses both bonnet ports
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      06-11-2007, 10:04 PM   #26
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screw the csl, i'm not waiting around 2 years for it, i want my M3 DCT now
you can probably mod it by yourself anyways
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      06-12-2007, 02:27 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpan08 View Post
screw the csl, i'm not waiting around 2 years for it, i want my M3 DCT now
you can probably mod it by yourself anyways
I heard the new CSL will be amphibious though, so you'd missing out on that one big time. I heard 100hp at the prop!
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      06-12-2007, 02:55 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I heard the new CSL will be amphibious though, so you'd missing out on that one big time. I heard 100hp at the prop!
You're working on your standing, aren't you?

Best regards, south
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      06-12-2007, 03:00 AM   #29
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As always...Who wouldn't?

Regards,

Last edited by lucid; 06-12-2007 at 03:50 AM.
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      06-12-2007, 01:52 PM   #30
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i was actually hoping it would be a transformer, robots in disguise
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      06-12-2007, 06:23 PM   #31
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I didnt read the entire second page, and I think that lucid's point is as always, an excellent one. But Just to give a little bit of my own thoughts.

The F430 challenge stradalle and the Gallardo superlaggera or lagga w/e the name is.. Are perfect examples that there is always room for more power from factory cars...
this is beacause of the balance power vs. drivability/comfort...Ferrari and Lambo both need a (my own made up) ratio of 80:20.

The cars have great performance and all but there is still the sacrifice/tradeoff of drivability & comfort...and when the "hardcore enthusiast" models come out (CSL, Challenge Stradale, Superlagg*, Z06, AMG) they up the performance part of the equation and give away the comfort.

On to my point...I think that the M3 has a much more balanced ratio, relative to "performance cars" more like 65:35. so uping the power, won't be a biggie. A set of cams and a new tune, will yield at least 40-50chp.

Anywho, blah blah blah...There will definately be more room for the CSL's power boost by at least 50HP which by then, wont hurt the fan boys shopping for the new M5/6.

:rocks::rocks:

(PS. This is one of the best discussions at the board in a while, not that Ive been around ot anything, but still. )

Last edited by replicat; 06-12-2007 at 06:42 PM.
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      06-12-2007, 07:10 PM   #32
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geez i started it
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      06-12-2007, 07:11 PM   #33
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The argument

mofomat, lucid: You guys should watch the insults, I ain't a moderator but I can say you both have good and valid points and really are not disagreeing that strongly. Since it is hard to watch an argument from the sidelines I'll offer my 2 cents....


The per displacement power and torque figures comparing the F430 and the M3 are quite significant. They are roughly 10% better on each on a PER DISPLACEMENT basis - that is huge in anyones book for production NA engines of a similar configuration.

I absolutely think BMW positions their cars M3, M5, M6, CSL, etc. carefully. Although they do not appear as exactly the same buyer profile/demographics etc. there is significant overlap. I know quite a few folks who have both M3/M5 or hop back and forth between the two, which ever is newer. Especially when the M3 will perform so closely to the M5 in many areas (and maybe out perform it in some) and will be available with 4 doors BMW has to be careful. They could have got 440 fairly easily but there must be room for the CSL and M5. This is also why I believe the M5 will get a bump in hp to 550 or so sometime soon.

BMW may state a preference for "efficient dynamics" and focus on weight distribution and handling vs. max power figures but "up-ing the ante" is the only way to truly compete. Look at the debate and speculation here in the US about the 0-60 time for the new M3. It is not THE most important spec. but we Americans (the largest market for M cars) just can not get it out of our heads. You know as well as I do it is not going to be fun to get smoked in our new M3s in short drags by Evos or WRXs but it will happen.

The new M3 really is the V10 less two cylinders. Look at the specs, look at the detailed high resolution pictures and look at the features. What is new, low pressure VANOS - oh boy? Personally, as much as I know the engine is great, it is absolutely an evolution (and a minor evolution at that) of the M5 V10. In contrast both the RS4 and F430 engines are fairly revolutionary.

Cheers!
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      06-13-2007, 12:47 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post

The per displacement power and torque figures comparing the F430 and the M3 are quite significant. They are roughly 10% better on each on a PER DISPLACEMENT basis - that is huge in anyones book for production NA engines of a similar configuration.
Yes, the max hp difference between the F430 and M3 engines is 10% and the max torque difference is 9%. In absolute terms, that can be seen as a significant difference by certain standards. Actually, the real potential difference is even higher since Ferrari achieves that with a lower compression ratio, which suggests an even larger room for improvement for the M3 engine. However, my point has been that the M3 engine will be mass produced for a ~$60k product, so I wouldn't expect BMW to cover the entire gap in an effort to extract more power (I probably didn't make this very clear). It's not that BMW engineers cannot figure it out or anything. It's more about what it will take from a cost and manufacturing basis to make that leap. One can say the CSL engine is another story, and BMW will go all out to do whatever it can to make sure it is significantly more powerful. That would be a marketing decision. I personally do not think the demand would support that kind of a costly all out effort. At that point in the game, everything scales up exponentially. So, I am thinking that something like a 2-3% gain is more of a realistic and comfortable target for BMW. Of course, this is all assuming the cylinder geometry and displacement will be the same, and there will be no FI; those are obvious and not so elegant means to get more power out of an engine. And finally, the M3 engine is designed for a street car that will be driven daily, so there is the entire durability dimension. There are things one can do to an engine that will give it better performance by trading off engine life, and I bet BMW is not too interested in those, but that's another story...

Regards,

Last edited by lucid; 06-13-2007 at 06:06 AM.
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