BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Professional Motorsport Racing Discussion (ALMS, DTM, Formula 1, Grand-AM, Le Mans, IRL, WRC, etc..)
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-17-2011, 03:47 PM   #45
ZURICH
Major
 
ZURICH's Avatar
 
Drives: E91 320d Touring M Sport
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Wettingen

Posts: 1,153
iTrader: (0)

Stop the slaughter.

A tragic accident just waiting to happen, Dan was one of the best British drivers on the planet, he lived for speed but died to placate the thirst for carnage that viewers of oval track racing come for. Oval racing should be banned, 4 or 5 cars abreast on a banked turn is a recipie for disaster as the 4 deaths since I think 96 can testify to. the only reason ovals still exsist in the USA is the fact that the viewers must see "everything" Pure ovals don't work in Europe, Rockingham an oval in the UK had to put a central track in the stadium because the British public just did not attend. too booring and too dangerous. RIP Dan may your God be with you.
__________________

M Sport Package, (PDC), front / rear, Cruise control
Mystic Blue Metallic, Beige Dakota leather, Alarm,
Automatic transmission, Panoramic glass roof, Heated Seats, Lumbar etc etc
"I don't Fuck around but when I do, I dont fuck around"
ZURICH is offline   Switzerland
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 03:51 PM   #46
BTM
Banned
 
Drives: A///MERICAN!!!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: A///MERICA!!!

Posts: 10,314
iTrader: (11)

Garage List
The multiple lines drivers can take at Vegas are characteristic to the "bowl" type of oval it is. Flatter, squarer tracks do not allow for this. 34 cars on a 1.5mi track going 230 is too many going too fast. The fact the track is an oval is not the problem.
BTM is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 03:58 PM   #47
MPBK
Everyday I'm shuffling
 
Drives: '12 SGM 135i DCT/CA/MSport/PPK
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA

Posts: 570
iTrader: (0)

Tell Laura I love her
Tell Laura I need her
Tell Laura not to cry
My love for her will never die.
MPBK is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 04:20 PM   #48
ESC OFF
Major
 
ESC OFF's Avatar
 
Drives: 1M (AW) & CaymanS
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chicago

Posts: 1,058
iTrader: (0)

Interesting conversation I overheard on the train to work this morning: Two women, easily pushing 70 years old, or older, were talking about Dan Wheldon passing, one of them commented that he had a finally had a full time ride in 2012 with Michael Andretti's team. I'm sure my mouth dropped when I heard this (because of who said it), and it kind of made me smile to think that these two women were fans of his. I've been thinking about his passing all day, I really feel sad for his family. Just terrible.
__________________
The faster you go, the better it feels
ESC OFF is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 04:28 PM   #49
BTM
Banned
 
Drives: A///MERICAN!!!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: A///MERICA!!!

Posts: 10,314
iTrader: (11)

Garage List
^ Our seats at Indy are next to a family of big DW fans. When he won this year they were ecstatic...I was happy the little girl saw her favorite driver win, I remember being a kid and seeing my favorite at the time (Arie Luyendyk) take a 500 victory. People who don't follow the sport (even myself, as my interest is maybe a little bit above casual) seem to think that just because his name isn't the most recognizable and his sport isn't the most popular that it's simply a case of "what did you think would happen, it's racing." Death is certainly a possibility, much more so than many other sports, but that doesn't change that a crash resulting in a death is an anomaly rather than an expectation. Assuming those guys are there next year, it'll be interesting but I'm sure they'll be there in their DW gear as always.
BTM is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 04:35 PM   #50
OC3
Havin' a blast!
 
OC3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,645
iTrader: (0)

Seems like Wheldon was still going full speed, right into the pile up, when all other cars in or behind the pile up were easing off of the throttle.
__________________

BRP CW13 1:58 | CVR CW 2:01 | CVR CCW 2:02 | ACS 1:53 | WSIR 1:34
2013 E92 M3 Jerez Black DCT ZCP | JRZ RS Pro | Brembo BBK | Endless ME20 | Volk TE37 18x10.5 squared | NT01/TD
OC3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 07:18 PM   #51
jaco
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2009 E92 335I
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Indy

Posts: 414
iTrader: (2)

Send a message via AIM to jaco
I turned on the race when the red flag was on and knew something was wrong when I saw the yellow tarps. I worked for IndyCar a couple years ago as an internship and met Dan. He is a true class act and a very nice guy.

The oval's make for good racing it was just wrong place wrong time. The roll hoop of the car was ripped off upon impact with the catch fence. I hope the new car addresses some of these issues. All racing is dangerous from Nascar to F1. It's all very sad to see.

RIP.
__________________
Jacob
2008 SG 335i Coupe Out
2009 JB 335I Coupe 6MT In!
jaco is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 07:21 PM   #52
JetBlack5OC
Major
 
Drives: E60&E92
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: west

Posts: 1,106
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
Seems like Wheldon was still going full speed, right into the pile up, when all other cars in or behind the pile up were easing off of the throttle.
Nope Will Power launched full speed into the air, he was behind Dan. Will's car flew over 200 yards in the air.

At 225 mph it isn't exactly easy to slow down.
JetBlack5OC is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 07:23 PM   #53
JetBlack5OC
Major
 
Drives: E60&E92
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: west

Posts: 1,106
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaco View Post
All racing is dangerous from Nascar to F1. It's all very sad to see.
This type of racing on 1.5 mile high bank ovals is far more dangerous than Nascar and even F1.
JetBlack5OC is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 07:25 PM   #54
JetBlack5OC
Major
 
Drives: E60&E92
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: west

Posts: 1,106
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BTM View Post
The multiple lines drivers can take at Vegas are characteristic to the "bowl" type of oval it is. Flatter, squarer tracks do not allow for this. 34 cars on a 1.5mi track going 230 is too many going too fast. The fact the track is an oval is not the problem.
Exactly, tracks like Las Vegas and Texas are far too dangerous.

While ovals like the Milwaukee Mile offer much safer racing.
JetBlack5OC is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 08:39 PM   #55
Blake
Banned
 
Drives: Chevy Aveo
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Parent's Basement

Posts: 4,651
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC View Post
This type of racing on 1.5 mile high bank ovals is far more dangerous than Nascar and even F1.
exactly. flat/very little bank turns in f1 require the driver to slow down to make the turns. f1 tracks are also designed with runoff areas, pea gravel, and tire walls. all of these combined lessen the impact and lead to safer racing. yes, driving anything at 200+ mph is inherently dangerous, but there are ways to make it safer (with the exception of monaco and other tight street circuits). i just think there can't be anything too safe about going 4 wide on a steep bank at 225mph at those incredible G forces. the margin for error is pinhole small, and what happened is a glaring example of what can go wrong. there was just simply nowhere to go except into the wall. when 15 cars get together, something bad is bound to happen.

it works for NASCAR because it's obviously done in large stock cars with a lot more protecting the driver. crumple zones, a shell, tubular steel, etc. there's a very valid reason that f1 drivers absolutely hated indy, and it's because the track was setup for a different kind of racing. the speeds were too consistently high and the G forces made work infinitely harder on the drivers.
Blake is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      10-17-2011, 08:49 PM   #56
BTM
Banned
 
Drives: A///MERICAN!!!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: A///MERICA!!!

Posts: 10,314
iTrader: (11)

Garage List
Going 4 wide is not common on "proper" ovals, meaning those best suited for open wheel competition. At Indy, 3 wide is like . Most often cars are single file with a racing line and a passing line. I can see almost all of turn 1 in my seats, and see 3 wide racing a few times a race. The speeds they take the turns at are also lower. This, combined with a longer track means everyone effectively has more room and is more certain about what other drivers are doing - unlike LV, where you can be wheel to wheel for laps at a time averaging over 220mph, especially with that many cars on the track. When the 33 get spread out at Indy it's basically a constant stream of cars going by. Now look at how bunched up the same amount of cars on a track a mile shorter.

These tracks work in NASCAR because of one simple thing - the bodywork. Bumping in NASCAR does not necessarily cause major accidents like touching wheels does in open wheel cars. But open wheelers have been racing on ovals since racing's inception and have been doing so relatively safely. As unfortunate as it is, moving away from ovals entirely is an overreaction. There is a huge difference from a flatter squared off type oval track, and a high banked bowl type oval.

FWIW I've climbed the 9* banks at Indy. In person and close up, they seem ridiculously steep. I can't imagine a 20* banking
BTM is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-18-2011, 02:53 PM   #57
ScotchAndCigar
Banned
 
ScotchAndCigar's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 128i space gray vert
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England

Posts: 817
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkoral View Post
As I'm sitting here in the dealership with some news channel on (not watching but forced to listen), they had some talking head on and he talked about the big safety push F1 made after their last fatality "in 1993". FAIL.

This idiot is on again (CNN, his first name is Don and he has a British accent). He said the "F1 drivers got together after the last fatality in 1993 and pushed for safety", which is totally incorrect.
Aside from the fact that it was '94, what the hell are you talking about?
ScotchAndCigar is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-18-2011, 05:53 PM   #58
ESC OFF
Major
 
ESC OFF's Avatar
 
Drives: 1M (AW) & CaymanS
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chicago

Posts: 1,058
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Aside from the fact that it was '94, what the hell are you talking about?
Some people are still in shock apparently....
__________________
The faster you go, the better it feels
ESC OFF is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-18-2011, 05:56 PM   #59
BigBambu
Private
 
Drives: E90 335xi
Join Date: May 2011
Location: CT

Posts: 87
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ESC OFF View Post
Some people are still in shock apparently....
BigBambu is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-18-2011, 08:17 PM   #60
jkoral
Captain
 
Drives: '09 135i MSport 6MT
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MA

Posts: 806
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Aside from the fact that it was '94, what the hell are you talking about?
If you're going to have an expert talking head on to discuss and explain the accident to the audience at least find someone qualified or familiar with Indy Cars.

His stated expertise was with F1 and then he proceeded to screw up the history of safety in F1. Not only was it 1994, two drivers died that weekend (everyone seems to forget about Roland Ratzenberger) and the push for safety was not from the drivers as he said but very much top down from the FIA pushed by Max Mosley, Sid Watkins, et. al.

He couldn't speak intelligently about Las Vegas and the issues surrounding the race so he tried to contrast it with what happened in F1 and was totally wrong. He repeated that this might be the event for the "drivers to take a stand" or some such crap. Safety must be an organizational imperative. Just as many drivers expressed concern about this race prior, they still got in their cars and got on with the job when the flag dropped.

The guy was making my blood boil as a I was forced to listen to him and his misinformation once or twice an hour. Apologies for taking the thread off in a tangent.

RIP Dan Wheldon.
jkoral is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-19-2011, 09:47 AM   #61
ScotchAndCigar
Banned
 
ScotchAndCigar's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 128i space gray vert
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England

Posts: 817
iTrader: (0)

Not to belabor the point, but there's this:
"On 1 May 1994, during the customary drivers' briefing, the remaining drivers agreed to the reformation of the Grand Prix Drivers' Association, with Senna, Gerhard Berger and Michael Schumacher as its first directors. The Association subsequently pressed for improvements to car and circuit safety in the wake of Imola and other serious crashes during the 1994 season."
With regards to IndyCar, I blame the haphazard organization, and feel that there is no way they can safely race on oval tracks with concrete walls and no runoff. Having a pack of open-wheel cars doing 225mph, inches from a concrete wall, is just stupid. What's more, the Vegas track hadn't been used by IndyCar for years, and half of the drivers aren't even signed to teams. It's a big mess. And don't forget the out-of-the-blue German Indy race, where Alex Zanardi lost his legs.

Let NASCAR do the ovals; IndyCar should stick to road courses.
ScotchAndCigar is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-19-2011, 10:07 AM   #62
M_Six
Free Thinker
 
M_Six's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 MB C300 4matic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Foothills of Mt Level

Posts: 4,845
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post

Let NASCAR do the ovals; IndyCar should stick to road courses.
Exactly. I stopped watching American OWR when CART died and Indycar went to mostly ovals. With tracks like Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio, Elkhart Lake, Laguna Seca, et al, and the temp street courses, there's no need for boring oval track races. Greg Moore died on an oval course. I've hated ovals ever since.

RIP Dan Wheldon
__________________
Mark
Randomography
Flickr

"The $0.99 menu was put on this Earth for a good damn reason." -Weebl
M_Six is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-19-2011, 10:08 AM   #63
E90SLAM
Supreme Allied Commander
 
E90SLAM's Avatar
 
Drives: A BBS WHORE
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: .

Posts: 60,985
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2006 330i  [4.67]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTM View Post
Going 4 wide is not common on "proper" ovals, meaning those best suited for open wheel competition. At Indy, 3 wide is like . Most often cars are single file with a racing line and a passing line. I can see almost all of turn 1 in my seats, and see 3 wide racing a few times a race. The speeds they take the turns at are also lower. This, combined with a longer track means everyone effectively has more room and is more certain about what other drivers are doing - unlike LV, where you can be wheel to wheel for laps at a time averaging over 220mph, especially with that many cars on the track. When the 33 get spread out at Indy it's basically a constant stream of cars going by. Now look at how bunched up the same amount of cars on a track a mile shorter.

These tracks work in NASCAR because of one simple thing - the bodywork. Bumping in NASCAR does not necessarily cause major accidents like touching wheels does in open wheel cars. But open wheelers have been racing on ovals since racing's inception and have been doing so relatively safely. As unfortunate as it is, moving away from ovals entirely is an overreaction. There is a huge difference from a flatter squared off type oval track, and a high banked bowl type oval.

FWIW I've climbed the 9* banks at Indy. In person and close up, they seem ridiculously steep. I can't imagine a 20* banking
Don't forget racing wheel to wheel is one great thing, but going wheel to wheel at 200+ mph is a disaster waiting to happen. A slight mistake or wheel touching wheel can simply launch the car up in the air.

We've witnessed Mark Webber launched in the air last year in Valencia. But the mandatory design of roll-over structure, seat belts and HANS protected him from any injury at all, and the run off area in Valencia ensured the RB6 landed on a flat surface instead of some random building. and finally the energy absorbing armco barrier stops the car without hurting the driver.

Everyone must remember this is "Motorsport", its a sport. Yes its dangerous, but death among athletes should not happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkoral View Post
If you're going to have an expert talking head on to discuss and explain the accident to the audience at least find someone qualified or familiar with Indy Cars.

His stated expertise was with F1 and then he proceeded to screw up the history of safety in F1. Not only was it 1994, two drivers died that weekend (everyone seems to forget about Roland Ratzenberger) and the push for safety was not from the drivers as he said but very much top down from the FIA pushed by Max Mosley, Sid Watkins, et. al.

He couldn't speak intelligently about Las Vegas and the issues surrounding the race so he tried to contrast it with what happened in F1 and was totally wrong. He repeated that this might be the event for the "drivers to take a stand" or some such crap. Safety must be an organizational imperative. Just as many drivers expressed concern about this race prior, they still got in their cars and got on with the job when the flag dropped.

The guy was making my blood boil as a I was forced to listen to him and his misinformation once or twice an hour. Apologies for taking the thread off in a tangent.

RIP Dan Wheldon.
The "expert" only got a few "Facts" remembered in their brain.

The thing about current F1 is there a lot safety regulations mandated since the 90s. Paved concrete area, gravel traps, smart energy absorbing armco barriers, Kevlar fuel cells, survival cell monocoque, pre-season crash test, stringent racing overalls, helmets and HANS. Safety car trigger happy Race Control to ensure the drivers and on track marshalls are working in a safe environment.

New Track design must meet FIA safety regulations of the amount of run-off area and be homologated by the governing body. Existing tracks must be upgraded if possible.

With the media attention of this tragic accident, will pressure IndyCar governing body to react for more safety.
__________________
E90SLAM is offline   Hong Kong
0
Reply With Quote
      10-20-2011, 09:22 AM   #64
E90SLAM
Supreme Allied Commander
 
E90SLAM's Avatar
 
Drives: A BBS WHORE
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: .

Posts: 60,985
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2006 330i  [4.67]
Quote:
The FIA will assist IndyCar in the investigation in to the crash that claimed the life of Dan Wheldon.

A full investigation is to take place in to the multiple car incident which occurred at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway on Sunday. With the FIA having overseen improved safety in Formula One since Ayrton Senna's death in 1994, IndyCar has asked for its assistance, as well as the help of another US organisation, the Automobile Competition Committee of the United States (ACCUS).

"We hope to have preliminary findings to report within the next several weeks," an IndyCar statement said. "In the meantime, it would be inappropriate to comment further until the investigative team has had the opportunity to conclude its work."

Any findings could impact on Formula One, with the dangers of open cockpits highlighted in 2009 when Felipe Massa suffered serious injury after being struck by a loose spring from another car during qualifying for the Hungarian Grand Prix. Former FIA president Max Mosley has since called for the possibility of cockpit canopies to be investigated.
http://en.espnf1.com/fia/motorsport/story/62064.html
__________________
E90SLAM is offline   Hong Kong
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:49 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST