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[gthal]

Originally Posted by PINHEAD

this proves what?
still no hard evidence..just bla bla bla i can claim i have a 10 foot penis.

Please do NOT post a picture to prove it

[PINHEAD]

Originally Posted by gthal

Please do NOT post a picture to prove it

i dont know i think i should to prove it cuz apparently posting a picture of anything and not the real thing proves its real.
and any naysayers can suck my 10 foot penis because they should believe me???

lol
i dont know wats up with the responses from ADV.1 if they think we M3 owners are idiots or something or easy to make a sale when they have no concrete backup for the claims make..

[H2]

I have no opinion regarding the quality of ADV.1 wheels. I have noticed that they do seem to be popular. The main issue that I've seen in this thread is that they said they had TUV certifications and then said they would post one. They posted something titled as a "Certificate of Conformity." If that's not an actual TUV certification, then (in my opinion) it brings into doubt whether ADV.1 has certifications and knows what they're talking about. Also, a picture standing in a TUV facility is no proof you're certified; it only refutes claims that "TUV has never heard of us."

I used to perform ISO 9001 audits of organizations and, as such, I always wanted to see proof or evidence of something. People frequently make careless mistakes (or try to answer questions they shouldn't be trying to answer) when audited or pressed for information. The posting of a "Certificate of Conformity" (instead of a TUV certificate) may be one of those types of mistakes. In my audit situations, a simple "oops, my mistake" would suffice (followed by the correct proof, evidence, or explanation) and no negative consequences would result. I believe that's all we're asking for here.

[PINHEAD]

Originally Posted by H2

I have no opinion regarding the quality of ADV.1 wheels. I have noticed that they do seem to be popular. The main issue that I've seen in this thread is that they said they had TUV certifications and then said they would post one. They posted something titled as a "Certificate of Conformity." If that's not an actual TUV certification, then (in my opinion) it brings into doubt whether ADV.1 has certifications and knows what they're talking about. Also, a picture standing in a TUV facility is no proof you're certified; it only refutes claims that "TUV has never heard of us."

I used to perform ISO 9001 audits of organizations and, as such, I always wanted to see proof or evidence of something. People frequently make careless mistakes (or try to answer questions they shouldn't be trying to answer) when audited or pressed for information. The posting of a "Certificate of Conformity" (instead of a TUV certificate) may be one of those types of mistakes. In my audit situations, a simple "oops, my mistake" would suffice (followed by the correct proof, evidence, or explanation) and no negative consequences would result. I believe that's all we're asking for here.

yea but they dont have it, or they would have posted it. my whole point for pointing ADV.1 out is that companies like that are trying to mislead the customers, saying they have passed certain certifications when in reality, only a few of the wheels they sell has passed. Judging by the way they post and reply they are very quick to try anything they can to prove they are TUV certified, but not directly because they just don't have the certification. Posting pictures of the incorrect TUV conformity, pictures of the TUV facility, etc. does not really prove anything. Like I said, i can claim I have a 10 food penis, and then google a picture of it or take a picture of a whale penis, and the public is suppose to believe me that I do have a 10 foot penis? M3 owners are not dumb, our cars are not cheap, and our money is hard earned, every single one of us. Trying to sell us rims that you claim are so and so, just dont cut it, and Im calling you guys out.

[AMPowerJ]

"whale penis"

[aus]

Originally Posted by PINHEAD

i dont know wats up with the responses from ADV.1 if they think we M3 owners are idiots or something or easy to make a sale when they have no concrete backup for the claims make..

You should have seen this forum when the E9x first came out.
It was ALL ABOUT 360 Forged and 20" rims. It was SAD. All these "Car Guys" were all about the bling and had NO IDEA about unsprung weight, VIA/JWL/TUV. All they cared about was the look and the bling. There are still a LOT of those types of people on this and many other boards.
I was like WTF happened to the //M crowd I was used to with the E36/E46 M3.

Jordan knows how to make a good looking wheel; he's proved that twice now. And it seems like he's taking care of customers, but he needs to take that next step like APEX and MORR have done to prove their wheels are strong and safe for the road and track.
Also, saying you're TUV when you're really not, does not inspire confidence in the company's wheels cracking or breaking.

.

[PINHEAD]

Originally Posted by aus

You should have seen this forum when the E9x first came out.
It was ALL ABOUT 360 Forged and 20" rims. It was SAD. All these "Car Guys" were all about the bling and had NO IDEA about unsprung weight, VIA/JWL/TUV. All they cared about was the look and the bling. There are still a LOT of those types of people on this and many other boards.
I was like WTF happened to the //M crowd I was used to with the E36/E46 M3.

Jordan knows how to make a good looking wheel; he's proved that twice now. And it seems like he's taking care of customers, but he needs to take that next step like APEX and MORR have done to prove their wheels are strong and safe for the road and track.
Also, saying you're TUV when you're really not, does not inspire confidence in the company's wheels cracking or breaking.

.

Im with you on this 100%. Different crowd over here compared to the good old M3Forum days where BBS and Volk were more common, and parts were more genuine. And I do agree, Jordan does make VERY GOOD LOOKING wheels, but its not hard to make a good looking wheel. All you need is a good design, and cut it to that spec. The hard part, and the reason why wheels like RAC and MORR are so great and reasonably priced is that they know the sacrifice made when you have a good looking wheel. Its not that BBS or Volk/Advan/RAC has bad looking wheels, they understand that before a wheel looks good, it needs to be strong. We are not driving luxury SUVs or VIP sedans, we are driving high performance sports cars that can double as track cars on the weekend, and the wheels we put on our cars need to meet those standards and be able to withstand track punishment. Again, the biggest failure I see on ADV.1/360 forge is that they are all talk and no walk. Pictures and talk, anyone can do. Showing real certificates and proving that ALL of your wheels meet the TUV requirements is what counts. Saying that "some of our wheels are TUV approved, and we use that and cross/platform because it looks similar" does not cut it. If it does, why doesn't BBS/Rays/Enkei etc. do it the same way? Why do they have different certificate for practically every size of wheel? Oh right, because they actually make proper wheels and are priced accordingly.

[rzm3]

Here's a thread I created a while back regarding wheel testing standards.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353224

I also have an account with VIA to look up certified JWL wheels for those who are interested.

[BarryC]

Originally Posted by PINHEAD

Im with you on this 100%. Different crowd over here compared to the good old M3Forum days where BBS and Volk were more common, and parts were more genuine. And I do agree, Jordan does make VERY GOOD LOOKING wheels, but its not hard to make a good looking wheel. All you need is a good design, and cut it to that spec. The hard part, and the reason why wheels like RAC and MORR are so great and reasonably priced is that they know the sacrifice made when you have a good looking wheel. Its not that BBS or Volk/Advan/RAC has bad looking wheels, they understand that before a wheel looks good, it needs to be strong. We are not driving luxury SUVs or VIP sedans, we are driving high performance sports cars that can double as track cars on the weekend, and the wheels we put on our cars need to meet those standards and be able to withstand track punishment. Again, the biggest failure I see on ADV.1/360 forge is that they are all talk and no walk. Pictures and talk, anyone can do. Showing real certificates and proving that ALL of your wheels meet the TUV requirements is what counts. Saying that "some of our wheels are TUV approved, and we use that and cross/platform because it looks similar" does not cut it. If it does, why doesn't BBS/Rays/Enkei etc. do it the same way? Why do they have different certificate for practically every size of wheel? Oh right, because they actually make proper wheels and are priced accordingly.

+1000% I got sucked into the 360forged hype and never again will I buy a wheel from Jordan and his crew.

BC

[inandout]

Originally Posted by rldzhao

Here's a thread I created a while back regarding wheel testing standards.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353224

I also have an account with VIA to look up certified JWL wheels for those who are interested.

So are any of rennen's wheels certified? Which Adv1s are certified?

[ADV.1 Matt]

Pinhead - we also were not calling you out - the reason I invited you to come by our facility was because you were local to LA and we could clear up all of this and provide you with the evidence you demand in a few minutes and show you hundreds of testing certificates.

We engineer and build all of our wheels to exceed OEM specifications and have done so since day one. We don't sacrifice weight for safety and will build a heavier wheel than our competitors every day of the week to ensure it's not going to bend or break at the track. Are you guys demanding data and certificates from every other wheel company or just taking their word for it as well?

[bliss at 9k]

Isn't JWL certification just the machine they useto test? There are no standards as each manufacture can do their own testing. So in the end JWL certification does not mean anything.

[Eddy@ApexRaceParts]

Originally Posted by bliss at 9k

Isn't JWL certification just the machine they useto test? There are no standards as each manufacture can do their own testing. So in the end JWL certification does not mean anything.

This was answered earlier in the thread. JWL is not a machine. It's a testing standard.

JWL is a self "certified" test that is close to meaningless on it's own due to shady industry practices. It's performed in-house by the manufacturer, and it's cheated in numerous ways due to zero regulation. There is no master list as it's self certified, so you can't verify what is real and what is not. It's easy to fake (companies stamp many of the logos onto anything), and I could name many wheels that do not even conform to this basic test even though they claim they do.

JWL for that reason is no where near as important as true VIA and TUV certification. This testing cannot be performed in-house to receive an official certificate for a wheel. It has to be sent out them for independent testing. Manufacturers again lie about this process, simply because their in-house testing equipment has been certified to have the ability to recreate those testing standards. That by itself is again meaningless. That's like saying you take practice SAT tests in the same format the real test is given (no college would accept the self test).

To have a wheel certified by JWL or TUV, you first need your own equipment certified, and perform your own in-house testing using their standard. This means each wheel has to be crush tested multiple times in-house (not FEA). After in-house testing is done a sample is sent to the VIA or TUV for official testing by them (3rd party). If you do not send them a sample, then that wheel cannot be certified. They must have a real wheel and tire shipped to them to verify the results of the in-house testing. Once a wheel is certified it will be listed on an online registry database.

This is why I am more concerned about those that lie about VIA/TUV certification. It would be like making the claim that a car received a 5 star crash safety rating, when in fact the NHTSA never even touched the car.

JWL is the testing standard. It dictates the testing loads based on the wheel diameter and bolt pattern.

VIA is not a test. It is a testing organization. They test to the JWL standard. To be only JWL means a wheel was self tested. To be VIA means a wheel was officially tested by the VIA in Japan following the JWL testing method.

A Wheel that passes JWL does not make it VIA certified, even if it's stamped onto the wheel (what many companies do)

[PINHEAD]

Originally Posted by ADV.1 Matt

Pinhead - we also were not calling you out - the reason I invited you to come by our facility was because you were local to LA and we could clear up all of this and provide you with the evidence you demand in a few minutes and show you hundreds of testing certificates.

We engineer and build all of our wheels to exceed OEM specifications and have done so since day one. We don't sacrifice weight for safety and will build a heavier wheel than our competitors every day of the week to ensure it's not going to bend or break at the track. Are you guys demanding data and certificates from every other wheel company or just taking their word for it as well?

you and your companies lackluster response is not helping your case. Im calling you out to show proof that your wheels are TUV approved. Another member called you out, and you guys have yet to show anything but trying to change the direction where this is going. You dont sacrifice strength but you sacrifice weight? How is that a positive? You offer for me to come out to check out your warehouse where you cut the rims? What does that prove? Vorsteiner has offered for me to come out to their facility in Orange before and it proved nothing. Just a warehouse with a bunch of half carbon half fiberglass products and didnt show that they have an enclave or anything that proves they make their products there. Are you going to show me the TUV certificates? why not just show the whole forum and end this fiasco all together? We will take BBS and Volks word for it. They are in Formula 1 and many other motor-sport. Now THAT is concrete proof that they CAN make wheels when the top of the motor-sport ask you to provide rims for them.

[montreal red]

Originally Posted by ADV.1 Matt

Pinhead - we also were not calling you out - the reason I invited you to come by our facility was because you were local to LA and we could clear up all of this and provide you with the evidence you demand in a few minutes and show you hundreds of testing certificates.

We engineer and build all of our wheels to exceed OEM specifications and have done so since day one. We don't sacrifice weight for safety and will build a heavier wheel than our competitors every day of the week to ensure it's not going to bend or break at the track. Are you guys demanding data and certificates from every other wheel company or just taking their word for it as well?

i've always seen this statement come from many small wheel companies. what does this even mean? what kind of destructive testing have you done on OEM wheels ? and what have you done on your own ? did you guys get the specifications of the oem wheels from oem suppliers like BBS and fuchs, i am not talking bout width and offset here?

to be honest, i can accept you guys not having TUV certification but you can still build your wheels to a certain standard by testing them in various destructive tests. this should be part of the R&D process (maybe it already is, if it is, please describe what kind of testing you do!) just because something hasnt had any problems doesnt mean it never will. how many track cars out there do you have running ADV.1 wheels ?

if you guys have done your own testing, please upload results, pictures and maybe a video...something like this ?

[1MOREMOD]

end of that video seems unsafe for the tester standing 2 feet away. what if the wheel breaks or something goes wrong?

[PINHEAD]

Originally Posted by montreal red

i've always seen this statement come from many small wheel companies. what does this even mean? what kind of destructive testing have you done on OEM wheels ? and what have you done on your own ? did you guys get the specifications of the oem wheels from oem suppliers like BBS and fuchs, i am not talking bout width and offset here?

to be honest, i can accept you guys not having TUV certification but you can still build your wheels to a certain standard by testing them in various destructive tests. this should be part of the R&D process (maybe it already is, if it is, please describe what kind of testing you do!) just because something hasnt had any problems doesnt mean it never will. how many track cars out there do you have running ADV.1 wheels ?

if you guys have done your own testing, please upload results, pictures and maybe a video...something like this ?

right, and dont "Claim" that you do. SHOW IT. I can claim that my penis has the power of 1000 suns and can shoot cum 15 miles and fertilize an entire civilization. Without proof, would you believe my 10 foot penis can do that? Until you show proof of anything you claim the wheels you make has passed, I won't show the public my amazing penis.

[1MOREMOD]

That will have the opposite effect. Getting to see your penis isn't a reward adv1 will want so they won't show you the TUV cert.

[PINHEAD]

Originally Posted by chriszeh

That will have the opposite effect. Getting to see your penis isn't a reward adv1 will want so they won't show you the TUV cert.

true, im just trying to prove how idiotic their answers to our questions have been.

[the infamous...]

i'm very dissapoint'd w/ the outcome thus far... smh

[esquire]

As an attorney, I'll say this. If ADV.1 can't substantiate its claims regarding their various certifications, namely that they have TUV certification on over 100 applications, they are looking at a tremendous amount of legal liability for fraud, false advertising, negligent misrepresentation and fraudulent misrepresentation. If a mass joiner or class action arises, ADV.1 can also count on a host of punitive damages on top of actual damages.

I hope for their sake they can substantiate their claims. But being in this business for as long as I have, my experience has been : once a fraud, always a fraud. There's nothing more valuable than reputation. And their reputation at 360 forged wheels precedes them.

- esquire

[gthal]

Originally Posted by esquire

I hope for their sake they can substantiate their claims. But being in this business for as long as I have, my experience has been : once a fraud, always a fraud. There's nothing more valuable than reputation. And their reputation at 360 forged wheels precedes them.

- esquire

One thing with the whole 360 Forged issue is that if the owner of ADV.1 is the same, I don't care if you change the name or create a new legal entity, the reality is the ownership and management is the same. ADV.1 keeps saying that their company isn't the same as or affiliated with 360 Forged but if it is the same owner...

If I'm missing something, please clarify.