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      10-18-2011, 03:12 AM   #1
swamp2
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Ferrari also moving toward turbocharging but NOT with ANY lag

Pretty old news I guess, but I found it interesting to hear it quoted straight from a Ferrari engine designer.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...harged-engines

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For those with a turbocharged vehicle, you know how quickly turbo lag can destroy a driving experience. Well, so do the engine builders at Ferrari and they refuse to release any other information or details about these aforementioned engines---at least, until they can eliminate turbo lag all together.
Let's see what BMW M has in store for the M3. I have not seen the turbo lag on the new M5 discussed much but have not read everything out on the car either. What is the consensus?
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      10-18-2011, 07:24 AM   #2
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wow, gay.

i guess lambo is next
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      10-18-2011, 07:41 AM   #3
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wow, gay.

i guess lambo is next
Why hurt? Remember, think more along the lines of McLaren turbocharging, not BMW/VAG/Mercedes/Ford/GM/etc. turbocharging.
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      10-18-2011, 09:16 AM   #4
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Some manufactures are trying to yet build some naturally aspirated engines, but they are the last of their kind. Some examples: Lamborghini Aventador, Ferrari 458 Italia/Spider, Ferrari FF, Ferrari F159 (599 replacement), Porsche 911 Carrera /S (991), Porsche Boxster/Cayman /S (981), Aston Martin One-77, Lexus LF-A, Toyota FT-86.
But some others are are pioneers in the new era of turbocharging, as BMW M and McLaren. Now we can't say they resolved any of the issues, but they are getting closer.
The fist Ferrari turbocharged engine that we are to see are to appear on the up-coming Maserati Kubang and Maserati Quattroporte. From what I heard, the Maserati engine built by Ferrari will be a 4.0l V8 with about 500 PS. Now this engine will be tuned to fit a Maserati, so high-revs and instant throttle-response is not such an important thing as it would be in a Ferrari, just as it isn't as important in an M5 compared to an M3.

I do believe, there is a way to get read of turbolag, indeed there already is, and it is called anti-lag, it is used in rally cars, but this cannot be used on streetcars.
For me the greatest problem is the sound, and for this unfortunately there is no solution.
M3 CSL (E46), LF-A, 458 Italia and 599 GTO are some of the best sounding cars on the planet. Put a turbo, they'll be very far from that.
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      10-18-2011, 09:23 AM   #5
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Manufacturers are all in competition with one another ... this is nothing new and I am sure we are all aware of this.

The driving point today, not only for high performance cars is ... fuel efficiency so in the end everything possible is being done to ...

a) stay ahead of the other guy

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b) see item "a" again

i.e. it's all about sales and the mighty dollar, Euro or whatever
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      10-18-2011, 09:44 AM   #6
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I feel like some of these companies, particularly ferrari, and a few others should have an exemption for a while at least from the impending regulatory changes. Its like telling an artist how to paint. Just doesn't seem like it should apply to them. If you make shit box transportation fine follow the rules. If you make kick ass works of art, go for it and do your thing.
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      10-18-2011, 09:53 AM   #7
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AH yes. The old "no lag" claim. Remember when BMW stated that about the N54... lol..

Yes anti-lag systems might work.. but good luck seeing that on a street car with all the emissions clamp-down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriszeh View Post
I feel like some of these companies, particularlly ferrari, and a few oyhers should have an exemption for a while at least from the impending regulatory changes. Its like telling an artist how to paint. Just doesn't seem like it should apply to them. If you make shit box transportation fine follow the rules. If you make kick ass works od art, go for it and do your thing.
+1

No conventional turbo is lagless. For those of us who love that our Ms have immediate and visceral throttle response, a turbo will never do. Yes; you can get around it with gearing and so forth. But you'll come to miss it. Even in the new M5.
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      10-18-2011, 10:22 AM   #8
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I've read a couple articles on the M5 and they were disappointed that there was lag. It wasn't bad but it was there.

And the N54 was pretty good before the software "fix" they did to fix bad hardware.
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      10-18-2011, 11:47 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriszeh View Post
I feel like some of these companies, particularly ferrari, and a few others should have an exemption for a while at least from the impending regulatory changes.
In some cases they do, and in other cases they may just pay the fines and pass it to the customers. However, fines are probably going to keep going up; at some point it becomes impractical. Plus, the court of public opinion can be strong. When everyone else is building more efficient cars, you don't want to send the message that you don't care.
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      10-18-2011, 11:48 AM   #10
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      10-18-2011, 12:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I have not seen the turbo lag on the new M5 discussed much but have not read everything out on the car either. What is the consensus?
Turbo lag is more of a problem the smaller the engine and higher the revs. With a relatively low revving 4.4L (and above) V8, it's hardly an issue. On a 2L I4 is a different story.

But not only turbo lag is an issue on turbo engines. So is off/on throttle response and power curve. I MUCH rather own a less powerful NA engine than a turbo one, but the future is clearly heading on the latter's direction. And same thing with the manual transmission, which is a shame. At 50, I thought I'd never be forced to buy a (relatively affordable) turbo and/or automatic sports car before I'm too old to drive a sports car, but could be wrong . We'll see.
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      10-18-2011, 08:47 PM   #12
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Strange but true, a turbo hybrid powerplant with the right software would have the response of a NA engine with the efficiency of a turbo. The electric motor is great for filling in the missing torque at low revs before the turbo can build boost.
I think the future is going to be serial hybrids, where the gas engine can run at maximum efficiency and power in a narrow RPM range and the electric motor is fully responsible for turning the wheels.
For now, my NA V8 is the perfect choice for driving fun. I'll worry about the cost of gas when it reaches $10/gallon. Hopefully there will be more than a couple decent electrics out by then.
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      10-18-2011, 08:59 PM   #13
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i'll believe it when i feel it.
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      10-18-2011, 09:02 PM   #14
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Hey. At least it's not hybrid...
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      10-19-2011, 08:29 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Turbo lag is more of a problem the smaller the engine and higher the revs. With a relatively low revving 4.4L (and above) V8, it's hardly an issue. On a 2L I4 is a different story.
I disagree. Lag is lag. Sure lag can be minimized with smaller turbos on a larger engine, variable vane geometry (or other more exotic techniques) or worsened with larger turbos on a smaller engine, however, you can always feel the delay in throttle response and that is the lag. It hurts performance and feel and may need driving adjustments to fully work around it when driving at a 9/10 or 10/10 pace. Also, as pointed out above the turbo lag on the M5 has been reported as quite noticeable.
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      10-19-2011, 08:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Pretty old news I guess, but I found it interesting to hear it quoted straight from a Ferrari engine designer.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...harged-engines

Most importantly:


Let's see what BMW M has in store for the M3. I have not seen the turbo lag on the new M5 discussed much but have not read everything out on the car either. What is the consensus?
No matter what engine a Ferrari will always be great and makes wonderful music
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      10-20-2011, 12:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf-Dieter View Post
No matter what engine a Ferrari will always be great and makes wonderful music
As to the bold part...

I think those of us who are very concerned with a cars acoustics (which is probably more of us than we would actually admit - part of it is almost subconscious) would beg to differ. If you really like the sound of the GT3, F430/458, LF-A, Carrera GT, etc. the turbo charged Ferrari's will very likely disappoint a bit in comparison.

That is of course unless Ferrari adopts something similar to the brand new F10 M5 "fancy pants synthesized/amplified engine/exhaust noise played through the cars audio system to make up for poor engine sound and too much acoustic insulation" system...

P.S. this is really what the new M5 does, no joke!
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