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      10-09-2011, 09:19 AM   #67
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How about corevette z06 if were talking performance. Same price range 100 more hp. Wonderful handling and excitement. Z06 is faster straight line and around the ring. Better on fuel too.

For interior quality I like the m3 but that's about all it has over the Z06.
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      10-09-2011, 09:30 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
The suspension is awesome.
The engine is good but breaks no new ground whatsoever.
The interior rattles and shakes for almost any excuse.
The DCT as produced for the first 2 years was a POS.

Legendary? No shortage of fanboys here.
The engine is good? IMO the engine is simply fantastic -- and one that has won International Engine of the Year in it's class (3.0 - 4.0 litre) every year since it debuted in 2008.

Just bought my '09 with 14k miles and the car doesn't have a single rattle. I know some do as I have read about it here but don't make a blanket statement that they all have countless rattles. They don't. Shit, my 997S had four rattles going on at one time (two in the dash, one seatback and one door panel) but I'm not about to make a blanket statement that they all do it for any excuse.

The DCT in my '09 performs flawlessly....and considerably better than the SMG in my former E60M5 and just as good (if not better) than the PDK in my buddy's 997.2S.

I'm in no way shape or form a fanboi. I think my signature will tell you that right away. But, I am simply amazed at how fantastic this car is. There is not a better performance minded daily driver out there.

The term legendary is so subjective.
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      10-09-2011, 09:46 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post
How about corevette z06 if were talking performance. Same price range 100 more hp. Wonderful handling and excitement. Z06 is faster straight line and around the ring. Better on fuel too.

For interior quality I like the m3 but that's about all it has over the Z06.
The Corvette in general is a legend. I don't think you will get anyone with a sane mind saying otherwise. The C6Z version is an amazing machine and should be deemed legendary. It set the mark for the 997 Turbo, GT3, GT-R and countless other performance cars.

As to its attributes, performance, etc. I don't know that this is the right place to start the comparisons to the E9X M3 but here is my quick synopsis --It is pretty reliable vehcile and the exterior styling is simply beautiful IMO but it's build quality (seam gaps, etc.) and fit finish are sub par (cheap grades of plastic, fake carbon dash/center console surround, cheap grade of leather, LaZBoy recliner like seats). I bitched about all of these before I even bought my prior Vettes so I knew what I was getting with them going in. The transmission rattle (google "C6 Z06 marbles in a can") at low RPMs was quite annoying to me as well. The C6 versioned Vettes are great machines but just very different from anything German/Italian/English. I find the M3 to have many more "better" things than the Z06 other than just a better interior....having said that, performance isn't one of them..

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      10-09-2011, 09:58 AM   #70
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The engine is good? IMO the engine is simply fantastic -- and one that has won International Engine of the Year in it's class (3.0 - 4.0 litre) every year since it debuted in 2008.

Just bought my '09 with 14k miles and the car doesn't have a single rattle. I know some do as I have read about it here but don't make a blanket statement that they all have countless rattles. They don't. Shit, my 997S had four rattles going on at one time (two in the dash, one seatback and one door panel) but I'm not about to make a blanket statement that they all do it for any excuse.

The DCT in my '09 performs flawlessly....and considerably better than the SMG in my former E60M5 and just as good (if not better) than the PDK in my buddy's 997.2S.

I'm in no way shape or form a fanboi. I think my signature will tell you that right away. But, I am simply amazed at how fantastic this car is. There is not a better performance minded daily driver out there.

The term legendary is so subjective.
We're not talking about competence here. The subject is whether or not the car is legendary. I wrote in another thread about how this is the perfect car for me. I'm on my second e90 after my favorite car (e46 M3). The car is competent; very competent. Awesome? Yes. Legendary? No.

911 Turbo: Legendary
Countach: Legendary
VW Beetle: Legendary
Toyota 4wd truck: Legendary
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      10-09-2011, 10:01 AM   #71
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@ OP: Yes and No depending on either who you ask or the employed criterion for determining legend status.

When one looks at each mass produced M3 model while ignoring model variants, IMHO, all four of the models have created a "legend" status for themselves to some individuals or for the M3 generational lineup as a whole.

Where comparisons or contrasts are made between an M3 and other manufacturer's cars, the legend label is going to be discussed or argued ad nauseum without agreement thanks to varying criteria of a large number of individuals with thoughts on the matter.

As far as "legend" status for the E92 M3 is concerned, I think that it depends on whether legendary is in the context of the car market, car enthusiast demographic or public at a large.

--The fact that there are dedicated M3 forums suggests a level of enthusiasm that goes well beyond ordinary appreciation.

-- The fact that people are eager to discuss or share their experiences with an M3, aspirations to own an M3 suggests the model means much much more to them than what is merely ordinary.

--By definition, that which is not ordinary is extraordinary, and that which is extraordinary may become legendary. You decide at the individual level, but some, like the Car & Driver crew, have already articulated their thought about E92 M3 --"Every other manufacturer should give up on building their own cars and just make M3's instead." -- C&D M3/GTR/997TT test, summary quotation. One doesn't ordinarily read or hear that sort of praise every day.
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      10-09-2011, 10:08 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
We're not talking about competence here. The subject is whether or not the car is legendary. I wrote in another thread about how this is the perfect car for me. I'm on my second e90 after my favorite car (e46 M3). The car is competent; very competent. Awesome? Yes. Legendary? No.

911 Turbo: Legendary
Countach: Legendary
VW Beetle: Legendary
Toyota 4wd truck: Legendary
Precisely --- and winning engine of the year four years in a row is NOT "competence".

You can't just say 911 Turbo or Toyota 4wd truck and not quantify which one you are talking about. Are you saying my uncle's 4 cylnder 1994 Toyota SR5 pickup is legendary? I think not.

As I said earlier --- in general terms the Porsche 911 is legendary. The BMW M3 is legendary. The Corvette is legendary. The Ford Mustang is legendary.

What is your definitiion of legendary?
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      10-09-2011, 11:25 AM   #73
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Precisely --- and winning engine of the year four years in a row is NOT "competence".

You can't just say 911 Turbo or Toyota 4wd truck and not quantify which one you are talking about. Are you saying my uncle's 4 cylnder 1994 Toyota SR5 pickup is legendary? I think not.

As I said earlier --- in general terms the Porsche 911 is legendary. The BMW M3 is legendary. The Corvette is legendary. The Ford Mustang is legendary.

What is your definitiion of legendary?
You apparently don't understand the definition of legendary. Yes. I was talking about the older 4 cyl Toyota trucks that run forever. I wasn't talking about a particular 911 Turbo, I was talking about all of them including the 4sp early ones from the '70s. The cars are legendary.

You can talk to practically any person on the street and they'll identify a Countach, or have heard of the Porsche Turbo. Every person on the Earth recognizes a Volkswagen Beetle. No-one outside of this forum even knows what an M3 is. Look up the word 'legendary'. There are no legends with M3s in them.

By the way, the S54 won engine of the year (3.0l to 4.0l) more times than the S65. Both engines one the overall once. And the engine is only one aspect of the car.
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      10-09-2011, 01:14 PM   #74
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You apparently don't understand the definition of legendary. Yes. I was talking about the older 4 cyl Toyota trucks that run forever. I wasn't talking about a particular 911 Turbo, I was talking about all of them including the 4sp early ones from the '70s. The cars are legendary.

You can talk to practically any person on the street and they'll identify a Countach, or have heard of the Porsche Turbo. Every person on the Earth recognizes a Volkswagen Beetle. No-one outside of this forum even knows what an M3 is. Look up the word 'legendary'. There are no legends with M3s in them.

By the way, the S54 won engine of the year (3.0l to 4.0l) more times than the S65. Both engines one the overall once. And the engine is only one aspect of the car.
Legendary -- renowned; well recognized

http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_5114...wsarticle.html
http://www.worldcarfans.com/10605017...porting-legend
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=41605
http://www.**************.com/3-seri...nd-bmw-m3.html

I'm sure everybody knows what a 1994 Toyota SR5 truck is ..you're ridiculous.

I'm sure everybody knows what a Countach is

Let me make sure I understand you.....you just think a 911 Turbo is legendary but not a regular 911. But you think a Toyota SR5 pick-up is legendary? Got it

I just asked my wife....she never heard of a Countach of an SR5. She sure as hell knows what an M3 is though....and long before I owned my first one (an E46). When I told five fellow co-workers I was selling my Grand Sport Vette and getting an M3, four of the five knew precisely what I was talking about and not a one of them is a car geek or a member of an auto forum.

The S54 enigne did win engine of the year 6 years in a row. Hmmmm, lets see... if the S65 was introduced in 2008 and we are now in 2011 could it possibly have won engine of the year 6 times? I was no math major but I'm thinking it isn't possible.

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      10-09-2011, 05:07 PM   #75
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^^^^ I'm glad you're happy with your "legendary" M3. I'll just leave it at that. ^^^^
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      10-09-2011, 05:30 PM   #76
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Quote:
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The suspension is awesome.
The engine is good but breaks no new ground whatsoever.
The interior rattles and shakes for almost any excuse.
The DCT as produced for the first 2 years was a POS.

Legendary? No shortage of fanboys here.
Disagree on the engine. Name one other engine of comparable sophistication in a car of this price range. I think it breaks ground by bringing an engine of this level to a car of 58-70k. A few years prior, you are talking about having to buy a Ferrari for a V8 like this. So maybe they weren't the first to do it, but like Germans, perhaps they figured out how to do something pretty special for a reasonable financial profit.

Not being argumentative on the rattles, but my car sounds great and I live in Pittsburgh (terrible roads). My A6 and STi rattled like crazy, so I know how to identify them. My M3 is really solid. Obviously if yours is not, which I'm sure is true, then it does reflect an issue with quality, so that is a valid issue.

I specifically stayed away from the DCT because any new tech carries some level of unknown risk. I know that when it's working as designed, it's pretty amazing. I also read a lot of posts with people understandably pissed off at various issues - very frustrating.

But it's possible to find faults with any car - even the classics.
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      10-09-2011, 05:41 PM   #77
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Disagree on the engine. Name one other engine of comparable sophistication in a car of this price range. I think it breaks ground by bringing an engine of this level to a car of 58-70k. A few years prior, you are talking about having to buy a Ferrari for a V8 like this. So maybe they weren't the first to do it, but like Germans, perhaps they figured out how to do something pretty special for a reasonable financial profit.

Not being argumentative on the rattles, but my car sounds great and I live in Pittsburgh (terrible roads). My A6 and STi rattled like crazy, so I know how to identify them. My M3 is really solid. Obviously if yours is not, which I'm sure is true, then it does reflect an issue with quality, so that is a valid issue.

I specifically stayed away from the DCT because any new tech carries some level of unknown risk. I know that when it's working as designed, it's pretty amazing. I also read a lot of posts with people understandably pissed off at various issues - very frustrating.

But it's possible to find faults with any car - even the classics.
Glad I'm not alone. Nicely written.
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      10-09-2011, 06:24 PM   #78
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Interesting....I wonder what was so special about the 605K mustang?
is it an limited edition?
It was sold at Barrett Jackson. I am going to guess that it was the first one made, was autographed by Carroll Shelby and that the money went to his charity which raises money for children that need organ transplants.

But mass produced Musangs, and paritculaly Shelbys, regularly bring in big numbers at collector car auctions,

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      10-10-2011, 01:11 AM   #79
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Disagree on the engine. Name one other engine of comparable sophistication in a car of this price range. I think it breaks ground by bringing an engine of this level to a car of 58-70k. A few years prior, you are talking about having to buy a Ferrari for a V8 like this. So maybe they weren't the first to do it, but like Germans, perhaps they figured out how to do something pretty special for a reasonable financial profit.

Not being argumentative on the rattles, but my car sounds great and I live in Pittsburgh (terrible roads). My A6 and STi rattled like crazy, so I know how to identify them. My M3 is really solid. Obviously if yours is not, which I'm sure is true, then it does reflect an issue with quality, so that is a valid issue.

I specifically stayed away from the DCT because any new tech carries some level of unknown risk. I know that when it's working as designed, it's pretty amazing. I also read a lot of posts with people understandably pissed off at various issues - very frustrating.

But it's possible to find faults with any car - even the classics.
I don't mean to be argumentative. But can someone explain to me why the engine in this car is so good? My buddy and I just purchased M3s recently and have been reading on the forums how great everyone says the engine is but we can't figure it out. Personally, both of us bought our cars despite the engine. It has an extreme lack of torque (which I am ok with, I purchased the car knowing full well what I was getting into) and gets horrible fuel economy.

To be honest, the first time I drove one I was a bit perplexed. The engine in the E92 feels like it has less power off idle than the E46s I have driven. However, the 7 speed transmission with its lightning fast shifts and short gearing does do wonders to make up for this defecit.

The archane pushrod engine in the base model C6 Corvette gets up to 28 MPG on the highway and it's powerband is SO much fun on the street. I would think that an engine with the level of sophistication found in the BMW would be lightyears ahead of one built based upon technology that is straight out of the stoneage?
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      10-10-2011, 12:21 PM   #80
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I think he's serious...
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Quote:
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I don't mean to be argumentative. But can someone explain to me why the engine in this car is so good? My buddy and I just purchased M3s recently and have been reading on the forums how great everyone says the engine is but we can't figure it out. Personally, both of us bought our cars despite the engine. It has an extreme lack of torque (which I am ok with, I purchased the car knowing full well what I was getting into) and gets horrible fuel economy.

To be honest, the first time I drove one I was a bit perplexed. The engine in the E92 feels like it has less power off idle than the E46s I have driven. However, the 7 speed transmission with its lightning fast shifts and short gearing does do wonders to make up for this defecit.

The archane pushrod engine in the base model C6 Corvette gets up to 28 MPG on the highway and it's powerband is SO much fun on the street. I would think that an engine with the level of sophistication found in the BMW would be lightyears ahead of one built based upon technology that is straight out of the stoneage?
First:

Second:
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      10-10-2011, 01:01 PM   #81
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Alright, now that we got the obligatory meme photo calling me retarded out of the way. Could someone please shed some light on the topic?

I know the engine is very small and puts out over 100 hp/liter which is great. And if the car or the engine itself were extremely light as a result then I would totally understand the benefits. But I don't believe this to be the case.
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      10-10-2011, 01:16 PM   #82
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In your own words: you bought the car despite the engine... that statement alone is so retarded I don't even know where to begin. And I really don't feel like discussing the torque issue for the millionth time.

In short > you should've bought the C63.
Thanks for the kind words. Yes, the engine on the m3 was definitely the "weakest link" when I was making my purchase decision.

No, I didn't want a c63. The auto transmission is unacceptable and it handles like a brick. However that engine in the m3 would be the perfect car. Not sure why one of the brands can't figure out the entire package.
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      10-10-2011, 01:28 PM   #83
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Quote:
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I don't mean to be argumentative. But can someone explain to me why the engine in this car is so good? My buddy and I just purchased M3s recently and have been reading on the forums how great everyone says the engine is but we can't figure it out. Personally, both of us bought our cars despite the engine. It has an extreme lack of torque (which I am ok with, I purchased the car knowing full well what I was getting into) and gets horrible fuel economy.

To be honest, the first time I drove one I was a bit perplexed. The engine in the E92 feels like it has less power off idle than the E46s I have driven. However, the 7 speed transmission with its lightning fast shifts and short gearing does do wonders to make up for this defecit.

The archane pushrod engine in the base model C6 Corvette gets up to 28 MPG on the highway and it's powerband is SO much fun on the street. I would think that an engine with the level of sophistication found in the BMW would be lightyears ahead of one built based upon technology that is straight out of the stoneage?
Give me one example of an engine at the price point that revs to 8300 RPM and handles like the M3.
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      10-10-2011, 01:33 PM   #84
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Give me one example of an engine at the price point that revs to 8300 RPM and handles like the M3.
Why does the redline matter? The engine in the Honda S2000 revs to 9k but is completely anemic.

Not sure the engine has an affect on handling unless it is super light or something.
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      10-10-2011, 01:35 PM   #85
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Give me one example of an engine at the price point that revs to 8300 RPM and handles like the M3.
a power band from 5000 to 8300rpm does nothing more than a power band from 3700-7000rpm. I will not knock this motor but I will tell you that 8300 is simply a number that gets your blood flowing when you hear it. It provides nothing over the 7000rpm that potentially makes 1.5 times the power.

If somebody wants to get into it about the science behind it with me that is fine but know that I am not knocking this motor. I am rather telling you that the points you bring up about 8300rpm do not make this better than if it had the same power at 6000rpm.
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      10-10-2011, 01:44 PM   #86
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Why does the redline matter? The engine in the Honda S2000 revs to 9k but is completely anemic.

Not sure the engine has an affect on handling unless it is super light or something.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the engine is made out of Aluminum and metals?


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a power band from 5000 to 8300rpm does nothing more than a power band from 3700-7000rpm. I will not knock this motor but I will tell you that 8300 is simply a number that gets your blood flowing when you hear it. It provides nothing over the 7000rpm that potentially makes 1.5 times the power.

If somebody wants to get into it about the science behind it with me that is fine but know that I am not knocking this motor. I am rather telling you that the points you bring up about 8300rpm do not make this better than if it had the same power at 6000rpm.
Linear power delivery is the name of the game. You get power from around 3.5k all the way to redline. What other motor does that? It's practically a race engine. Now, it may not be perfect for the street but the engine and the characteristic on power delivery are incredible.
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      10-10-2011, 01:56 PM   #87
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Why does the redline matter? The engine in the Honda S2000 revs to 9k but is completely anemic.

Not sure the engine has an affect on handling unless it is super light or something.
W Cole,
The reasons why it matters, is because it is directly linking the car to motorsports. The pinnacle for these factory sports cars is their lineage to racing and the sucess of their respective racing teams. High reving, naturally aspirated engines in this case are/were BMW and the M division's link. You are missing the historical and racing connection. Sure, for a guy who doesn't know much about racing or auto history, the M3 doesn't seem legendary, because you measure a car by 0-60 and N-ring numbers, neither of which are lengendary.

It's funny that you bring up the s2000, I would consider that a car a legend on two fronts, one because it pays tribute to an older classic honda that like the s2000 was underpowered yet still gave more powerful vehicles trouble. The other, because of it's design and technological aspects: The pure 50/50 balance, driver's seating position, styling, transmission and the engine (was not anemic btw) maybe during daily driving but on the track, no way anemic in any form - the s2000 still gives cars with more power trouble, and a very rewarding car to drive.

Similiar to an M3, while not the highest of powered cars - it still seems to challenge if not beat cars like the C63, CTS-V, and Audi RS5 - on the track.
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      10-10-2011, 02:12 PM   #88
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This argument is getting retarded. Name a car that has an engine AND handles like this at this price point. CTS-V, great motor but too damn heavy. Mustang, awesome effort from Ford but not refined. Great motor in the 'Stang. Archaic rear axle and cheap where it shouldn't be but at that price point it's tough to argue. C63, great motor(a recurring theme) but heavy,no manual transmission and can't turn. Straight line fun only. M3, "maybe the greatest all-around car ever." About 4 different publications have stated that and frankly I agree. I fall in love with this motor more and more each time I drive it. The S65 would have been considered exotic a few years back and never attainable at this price. 8400 rpm redline in a streetable everyday car, outstanding. Gas mileage is putrid(not for me though) but did I mention this is the most reliable car BMW makes. This car will be sorely missed because it is legendary. IT DOES EVERYTHING but make coffee.
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"what I'm driving here...is an ending." Jeremy Clarkson
2014 Whiteout Toyota GT-86 6mt(Presently enjoying WAY more than anticipated)
2011 Alpine White BMW M3 6mt ZCP Coupe(forced retirement 06/06/14)
2008 Alpine White BMW 328i 6mt Coupe(retired 06/21/11
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PhillyNate is offline   United_States
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