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      10-03-2011, 09:34 PM   #23
M3Bahn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
In no other fire/collapse of a major building(but esp after a terrorist attack)has the evidence been carted away and destroyed within a few wks, without allowing any investigation...hmmmm.

Wonder why the molten liquid steel there 3 months after the buildings went down...from a fire huh?

Thermite...tastes great, less filling??...

I kid ya guys...those buildings went down due to the fires...I deplore conspiracy freaks.
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      10-03-2011, 10:37 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Couple of questions and one suggestion:

Q: Why?

Q: With all the people that had to be involved why has not one "conspirator" come forward? You know there are no secrets these days.

Suggestion: There are several brands of very durable, high shine tin foil that can be fashioned into protective headgear.

Who said they havent...cause you havent seen them on 60 min's?.
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      10-03-2011, 10:39 PM   #25
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[quote=ScotchAndCigar;10540949]Wow, you're a Grade A nut! Maybe if you add a few more emoticons and facetious quips, you'll win us all over.

Im done with this thread...waste of time...same old story.

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      10-03-2011, 10:45 PM   #26
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*looks in thread*

same old bickering

*closes thread*
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      10-04-2011, 01:02 AM   #27
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The pancaking explanation. This has it that the floor joints on one floor were softened/damaged, which lets the floor collapse onto the one below. Their combined weight makes both floors collapse onto the one below, its joints then fail due to he weight and all three collapse and so on.

So when NIST states that Tower 7 collapsed in free fall, they eliminate this hypothesis. A free fall collapse has no resistance from the floors below, instead it requires the floor joints on all floors on all pillars to fail within 1/10th of a second. So nice though the pancaking hypothesis is, it doesn't match the evidence. And has been demonstrated, all 3 towers fell in free fall.

And the tower with the antenna? The one where the floors above (a) fall off at an angle and (b) had already immolated themselves from the bottom before reaching the tower below the crash site? What exactly is causing the tower below the crash site to pancake in a nice symmetrical pattern when (a) the crush load above is asymmetrical and (b) the crush load is spreading itself outwards not downwards.

And melting steel vs softening? OK I can buy that. Except that every floor gives way at the same time as the towers drop in free fall with no resistance from non-failed floors. And that there patently is molten steel - rivers of the stuff filmed flooding from the building, sitting there still molten days after the collapse according to fire crews, engineers on site and the themographic images.

I can buy the "steel just needed to be softened so don't worry about the temperature differential between jet fuel and steel melt" argument if it wasn't for the fact that (a) the steel was melted and (b) jet fuel and office furniture doesn't burn hot enough to melt it.

Something melted that steel into slag. Physics proves it wasn't fuel or furniture. The chemical evidence says thermite. I would be fascinated to hear a proper scientific rebuttal of this hypothesis that doesn't involve "duh, a plane hit the tower".
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      10-04-2011, 06:00 AM   #28
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Im going to educate you in structural engineering for a bit.

There are many different kinds of loads. Point loads (which occur at a single point) distributed loads (like the contact patch of a tire)

There are also things called impact loads.

When one floor fails it falls onto the floor below it. This causes an impact load on the floor. This impact load instantly sheers bolts and welds as they become overstressed immediately after the impact of the floor above.

So when something fails in this manner it can be perceived as free fall.


Also, I highly doubt the reports of molten steel days after the collapse. Why do you ask? Because do you realize how hot something has to be burning to stay molten for that long? The melting point of steel is something like 1500 C if I remember correctly. Not nearly hot enough to have that effect.

You cant just cite some physics while completely ignoring the rest of it


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers View Post
The pancaking explanation. This has it that the floor joints on one floor were softened/damaged, which lets the floor collapse onto the one below. Their combined weight makes both floors collapse onto the one below, its joints then fail due to he weight and all three collapse and so on.

So when NIST states that Tower 7 collapsed in free fall, they eliminate this hypothesis. A free fall collapse has no resistance from the floors below, instead it requires the floor joints on all floors on all pillars to fail within 1/10th of a second. So nice though the pancaking hypothesis is, it doesn't match the evidence. And has been demonstrated, all 3 towers fell in free fall.

And the tower with the antenna? The one where the floors above (a) fall off at an angle and (b) had already immolated themselves from the bottom before reaching the tower below the crash site? What exactly is causing the tower below the crash site to pancake in a nice symmetrical pattern when (a) the crush load above is asymmetrical and (b) the crush load is spreading itself outwards not downwards.

And melting steel vs softening? OK I can buy that. Except that every floor gives way at the same time as the towers drop in free fall with no resistance from non-failed floors. And that there patently is molten steel - rivers of the stuff filmed flooding from the building, sitting there still molten days after the collapse according to fire crews, engineers on site and the themographic images.

I can buy the "steel just needed to be softened so don't worry about the temperature differential between jet fuel and steel melt" argument if it wasn't for the fact that (a) the steel was melted and (b) jet fuel and office furniture doesn't burn hot enough to melt it.

Something melted that steel into slag. Physics proves it wasn't fuel or furniture. The chemical evidence says thermite. I would be fascinated to hear a proper scientific rebuttal of this hypothesis that doesn't involve "duh, a plane hit the tower".
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      10-04-2011, 11:21 AM   #29
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A simple search would show pics from December at the site showing molten lava...many witnesses stating this too...indisputable evidence there....please look into this.

Please explain the thermite found by many many researchers...military grade thermite found all over the place...even in adjacent apt structures where their windows were blown out.

Many scientists measured the fall on all 3 buildings and proved it was freefall, not perceived freefall...please explain the freefall using your theory...is there any other way to freefall without all the lower floors giving way at the same time....what about the dozens of witnesses who heard loud explosions going off in succession right before the buildings came down on lower floors?...what about the video that captured the sideblasts going off in succession and in sequence on all 3 buildings right before they came down?.

Not trying to argue or bring stupid politics into this, I am just curious to see what your thoughts are on these points since you seem like a reasonable and bright person(not being facetious either).




Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Im going to educate you in structural engineering for a bit.

There are many different kinds of loads. Point loads (which occur at a single point) distributed loads (like the contact patch of a tire)

There are also things called impact loads.

When one floor fails it falls onto the floor below it. This causes an impact load on the floor. This impact load instantly sheers bolts and welds as they become overstressed immediately after the impact of the floor above.

So when something fails in this manner it can be perceived as free fall.


Also, I highly doubt the reports of molten steel days after the collapse. Why do you ask? Because do you realize how hot something has to be burning to stay molten for that long? The melting point of steel is something like 1500 C if I remember correctly. Not nearly hot enough to have that effect.

You cant just cite some physics while completely ignoring the rest of it
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      10-04-2011, 12:05 PM   #30
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You "truthers" are such victims of misinformation and propaganda. WTC7 is not a mystery.



And yes: I am an engineer (mechanical).


It's hilarious how you think they were proficient enough to rig this thing to collapse without anyone noticing, yet inept enough to get the timing off by 7 hours. It's also funny how you guys think they were really concerned with collatoral damage so had it collapse in it's own footprint. Yeah...wouldn't want to have too much damage on 9/11. And oh yeah- there was significant collatoral damage to a nearby hotel. You guys are wrong within wrong. You're wrong xhibit style...inception style.

Re: Thermite. People treate thermite like it's some advanced military explosive because it has a cool name. Thermite is iron oxide (rust) and aluminum. That's it. It reacts and forms iron and aluminum oxide. You're surprised to find iron and burnt aluminum in a burning skyscraper? Really? It's really cute how you say military grade thermite though, as if rust and aluminum are different in the military.

And which was it: thermite, or bombs? Thermite doesn't explode. What people probably heard was the inside of the building collapsing. Millions of tons of falling, bending, and breaking steel isn't very quiet.

You guys just throw as much BS as possible out there and hope something sticks, because it's much quicker to invent BS than it is to refute it.

Last edited by carve; 10-04-2011 at 12:50 PM.
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      10-04-2011, 12:18 PM   #31
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^there you go. Perfectly reasonable response that fully supports what ive been saying aswell. Actually he basically just showed a computer model of what ive been saying in words.


I hate to get technical like this, but nothing is fireproof. Just as nothing is waterproof or bulletproof.

They can only be resistant to such forces, and the resistance of these materials has a shelf life.

Eventually, these "fire retardant materials" as theyre called burn away or the heat penetrates them.



And havent I already explained it thoroughly? Its called impact loading, it is an instant force that instantly causes a reaction and I went through it in the post that you quoted. Please read what I say because im tired of repeating myself.


Ok heres somehting you may understand. Lets hit a smart car with an 18 wheeler. If you were in the semi youd hardly notice that you hit a smart car at all. Your velocity in the truck will have barely changed and youd get on with your life.

That is what one floor being struck by the falling weight of the 20-30 floors above it feels like.

Weight and Inertia are the forces at play here.

Is that good? Or do I need to simplify it even more for you?
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      10-04-2011, 12:31 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve;10544833/

And yes: I am an engineer (mechanical).

Re: Thermite. People treate thermite like it's some advanced military explosive because it has a cool name. Thermite is iron oxide (rust) and aluminum. That's it. It reacts and forms iron and aluminum oxide. You're surprised to find iron and burnt aluminum in a burning skyscraper? Really?
Ohh good point I completely forgot about that fact. Good call.


I should say at this point that I am also an engineer (albeit an aeronautical), however my father is a mechanical with 30+ years of building experience and gut renovations on some of NYCs iconic buildings, including the renovation of WTC 1 & 2 in september 2001.



Also, before anyone goes off on the whole well why is there rust in a skyscraper (see! a hole in the thermite plan! haha).

The answer is that the girders lay out in the elements for a few days or weeks while the rest of the structure is built around it. All steel pillars, columns, and cross members in skyscrapers have a surface coating of rust because of this. And aluminum is used in non supportive walls as studs. As it is lighter and more fire resistant than wood like houses use.
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      10-04-2011, 12:32 PM   #33
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OMG I am LOL...engineers?...

Sad really...couldnt even address the points above cause evidently you cant...please research subject first...I will trust Steven Jones over you BMW MB clowns...
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      10-04-2011, 12:38 PM   #34
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Umm we did answer your questions. Look at the video, the blasts are called pressure waves and they emanate when a structure collapses.

Also now youre simply trolling, so please GTFO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
OMG I am LOL...engineers?...

Sad really...couldnt even address the points above cause evidently you cant...please research subject first...I will trust Steven Jones over you BMW MB clowns...
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      10-04-2011, 12:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
OMG I am LOL...engineers?...

Sad really...couldnt even address the points above cause evidently you cant...please research subject first...I will trust Steven Jones over you BMW MB clowns...
I'm sorry that you have to go through the rest of your life with this debilitating mental illness. Best of luck to you and your family.
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      10-04-2011, 12:43 PM   #36
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Im just gonna leave this here too

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      10-04-2011, 12:44 PM   #37
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You guys asked for engineers. Here are two of 'em. The video I posted answers all of your questions except the part about thermite, which I answered myself. It's only three and a half minutes.

(I edited my post above for more detail and pwnage. You might want to read it again)
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      10-04-2011, 01:02 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
You guys asked for engineers. Here are two of 'em. The video I posted answers all of your questions except the part about thermite, which I answered myself. It's only three and a half minutes.

(I edited my post above for more detail and pwnage. You might want to read it again)

Two vs. the 1,614 verified architectural and engineering professionals who signed the petition on http://www.AE911Truth.org/

Ok, I'll go with you guys...

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      10-04-2011, 01:06 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by M3Bahn View Post
Two vs. the 1,614 verified architectural and engineering professionals who signed the petition on http://www.AE911Truth.org/

Ok, I'll go with you guys...

As stated the opinions of architects and anyone other than a meche or structural engineer are useless in this context


Also, it is sour logic to make the connection that simply because a lot of people are behind something that that is the correct solution. So I say so what? Thats how science works. Stephen Hawking proved Einsteins theory of black holes to be incorrect. Did the scientific community (thousands of scientists) not believe him because he was one man with an idea? No they listened to him and listened to all of the evidence offered by Hawking.

Ive listened to the evidence presented by this organization and with the help of a few other people have disputed and offered a reasonable and likely alternative to each piece of evidence offered.

just because you dont agree doesnt mean that we arent correct


Youre acting like we are simply talking out of our asses with no background in any of this. Which isnt the case, the opposite is true actually.
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      10-04-2011, 01:15 PM   #40
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As stated the opinions of architects and anyone other than a meche or structural engineer are useless in this context
Ok fine, do you care to at look how many structural and mechanical engineers signed the petition? This is the very reason I bothered to post this thread.


http://www2.ae911truth.org/downloads...s-TO-PRINT.pdf
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      10-04-2011, 01:22 PM   #41
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Ok fine, do you care to look how many structural and mechanical engineers signed the petition? This is the very reason I bothered to post this thread.


http://www2.ae911truth.org/downloads...s-TO-PRINT.pdf
Ok. Ill say this again. Because they signed a petition doesnt make them correct.


Ive met my fair share of absolute idiots who call themselves engineers.


I like where this went. We refuted everyone of their arguments so you ran home and decided that saying "well these guys said it so theyre right" have you bothered to even research the opposing side?
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      10-04-2011, 01:28 PM   #42
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So, you're surprised there are fewer than 1700 engineers reading this thread? Huh.

Tell me...have you ever seen the video before pointing out how early the penthouse collapses? You can even see daylight through the upper windows afterwards.

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      10-04-2011, 01:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Ok. Ill say this again. Because they signed a petition doesnt make them correct.


Ive met my fair share of absolute idiots who call themselves engineers.


I like where this went. We refuted everyone of their arguments so you ran home and decided that saying "well these guys said it so theyre right" have you bothered to even research the opposing side?
You say only engineers matter and then when you have their names on the petition then they don't matter. I never said they were correct, I'm just curious why so many of them are calling for a new investigation?
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      10-04-2011, 01:52 PM   #44
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Quote:
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You say only engineers matter and then when you have their names on the petition then they don't matter. I never said they were correct, I'm just curious why so many of them are calling for a new investigation?
You arent following. The opinions of architects dont matter because architects dont do any structural designs.

Engineering is a broad terms and covers such disciplines as chemical engineers, petroleum, mechanical, civil, and biological.

There are hundreds more and each one of the listed options can further be broken down into sub disciplines.

Structural and mechanical engineers opinions are the only ones that matter because those are the only engineers that design the structure of buildings. But at that only certain mechanicals matter because only some of the sub disciplines and foci of mechanical actually deal with building structures.

Would you buy a car designed by a pharmaceutical engineer? No. So why would you care about what they say when its on a building?
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