BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Wash, Wax, Detail, Cosmetic Maintenance & Repairs
 
VF Engineering
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-28-2011, 12:35 PM   #23
Sedan_Clan
Capoeirista Extraordinaire!
 
Drives: '14 335i(prev.IB,AW M3's & X5)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex! Or running your plates...

Posts: 9,145
iTrader: (21)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
NNNOOOOOO!!!!!! Another horrible leather thread? ANOTHER???

Seems like these pop up at least once a month with bad advice, bad techniques, and lack for clear information being spread.

DO NOT use something abrasive on your leather. The urethane coating shouldn't be treated in this matter. The best thing you can do for leather is to simply keep it clean. Monthly wipe downs of something like Leatheriqe Prestine Clean, Leather Master Soft Cleaner, or even 20:1 diluted Woolite should help a lot. Ditch all the garbage "conditioner" products you normally find which actually increase wear on your seat. Your leather is coated and doesn't need "conditioning."

If anything, do a little research and read one of the other dozen threads on proper leather care, and DO NOT use a magic eraser on your seats!

Where can these products be found?
Sedan_Clan is offline   Brazil
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 01:06 PM   #24
MuttGrunt
Banned
 
Drives: beater;)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SE Michigan

Posts: 872
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Where can these products be found?
Board sponsor DetailersDomain carries both lines, board sponsor DetailedImage carries Leatherique, and many other online sources carry one or the other.

There are also many how-to articles on Leatherique products, as well as many other sources that show how to best use leather care lines.
MuttGrunt is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 01:27 PM   #25
Templar
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Templar's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NC

Posts: 1,810
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 BMW M3  [5.00]
Leatherique Prestine Clean and Rejuvenator Oil. Can't go wrong. Follow the directions on the website for them and you should be set.
__________________
'11 BMW E92 ///M3 - ZCP and DCT
'13 Toyota Tundra - 4x4 Platinum CrewMax, 5.7l iForce V8
Templar is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 01:38 PM   #26
SamS
Brigadier General
 
SamS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 ActiveHybrid 3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 4,456
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
NNNOOOOOO!!!!!! Another horrible leather thread? ANOTHER???

Seems like these pop up at least once a month with bad advice, bad techniques, and lack for clear information being spread.

DO NOT use something abrasive on your leather. The urethane coating shouldn't be treated in this matter. The best thing you can do for leather is to simply keep it clean. Monthly wipe downs of something like Leatheriqe Prestine Clean, Leather Master Soft Cleaner, or even 20:1 diluted Woolite should help a lot. Ditch all the garbage "conditioner" products you normally find which actually increase wear on your seat. Your leather is coated and doesn't need "conditioning."

If anything, do a little research and read one of the other dozen threads on proper leather care, and DO NOT use a magic eraser on your seats!
This man knows his stuff!

Magic Eraser is VERY abrasive. Somewhere there is a photo of the surface under a microscope. If you're using this on your seat, you're basically scraping off the top layer of dirt, along with the urethane coating as well. Check back in a few months, the leather will be just as dirty, except this time it might be tough/impossible to actually clean.
SamS is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 03:13 PM   #27
Sedan_Clan
Capoeirista Extraordinaire!
 
Drives: '14 335i(prev.IB,AW M3's & X5)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex! Or running your plates...

Posts: 9,145
iTrader: (21)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
Board sponsor DetailersDomain carries both lines, board sponsor DetailedImage carries Leatherique, and many other online sources carry one or the other.

There are also many how-to articles on Leatherique products, as well as many other sources that show how to best use leather care lines.
Do either of these products result in a shine?
Sedan_Clan is offline   Brazil
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 04:11 PM   #28
MuttGrunt
Banned
 
Drives: beater;)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SE Michigan

Posts: 872
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Do either of these products result in a shine?
No. A Proper leather cleaner shouldn't leave ANYTHING behind. The only thing you should put on your leather after a proper cleaning or when it is new is Leather Master Protection Cream, GTechniq L1, or LTT Leather Protect, or equivalent water-based sacrificial barriers.
MuttGrunt is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 06:06 PM   #29
Sedan_Clan
Capoeirista Extraordinaire!
 
Drives: '14 335i(prev.IB,AW M3's & X5)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex! Or running your plates...

Posts: 9,145
iTrader: (21)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
No. A Proper leather cleaner shouldn't leave ANYTHING behind. The only thing you should put on your leather after a proper cleaning or when it is new is Leather Master Protection Cream, GTechniq L1, or LTT Leather Protect, or equivalent water-based sacrificial barriers.

Great information! Thanks Mutt!
Sedan_Clan is offline   Brazil
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 06:54 PM   #30
SamS
Brigadier General
 
SamS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 ActiveHybrid 3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 4,456
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
No. A Proper leather cleaner shouldn't leave ANYTHING behind. The only thing you should put on your leather after a proper cleaning or when it is new is Leather Master Protection Cream, GTechniq L1, or LTT Leather Protect, or equivalent water-based sacrificial barriers.
MuttGrunt,

Have you ever used a steam cleaner to clean leather? I don't mean steaming the leather directly, but steaming through a MF towel. I tried this on the leather on my DD Accord, and the MF cloth ended up "lifting" a good amount of grime. And my car is not at all dirty. I did the seats and steering wheel. The steering wheel especially felt like it was brand new, when I was done.
SamS is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 07:28 PM   #31
ScheerSpeed
Major General
 
ScheerSpeed's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 F30 Estoril M-Sport 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Miami, FL

Posts: 5,770
iTrader: (14)

Send a message via AIM to ScheerSpeed Send a message via MSN to ScheerSpeed
PLEASE... Save your leather and buy Swissvax Leather Cleaner and Leather Milk...
ScheerSpeed is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 07:59 PM   #32
Malek@MRF
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Malek@MRF's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 ZCP Melbourne 6MT
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Irvine, California

Posts: 3,266
iTrader: (5)

Send a message via AIM to Malek@MRF
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
No. A Proper leather cleaner shouldn't leave ANYTHING behind. The only thing you should put on your leather after a proper cleaning or when it is new is Leather Master Protection Cream, GTechniq L1, or LTT Leather Protect, or equivalent water-based sacrificial barriers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
NNNOOOOOO!!!!!! Another horrible leather thread? ANOTHER???

Seems like these pop up at least once a month with bad advice, bad techniques, and lack for clear information being spread.

DO NOT use something abrasive on your leather. The urethane coating shouldn't be treated in this matter. The best thing you can do for leather is to simply keep it clean. Monthly wipe downs of something like Leatheriqe Prestine Clean, Leather Master Soft Cleaner, or even 20:1 diluted Woolite should help a lot. Ditch all the garbage "conditioner" products you normally find which actually increase wear on your seat. Your leather is coated and doesn't need "conditioning."

If anything, do a little research and read one of the other dozen threads on proper leather care, and DO NOT use a magic eraser on your seats!
Absolutely!
__________________

BMW PERFORMANCE SPECIALISTS. Suspension. Forced Induction. Brakes. Race Preparation. Service. Alignments.
OFFICIAL PARTNERS: Íhlins. KW Suspension. Brembo. AP Racing. ESS Tuning. iND Distribution. Turner Motorsport.

Facebook | Instagram | Yelp! | Flikr | Contact | YouTube
Malek@MRF is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 08:19 PM   #33
MuttGrunt
Banned
 
Drives: beater;)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SE Michigan

Posts: 872
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
MuttGrunt,

Have you ever used a steam cleaner to clean leather? I don't mean steaming the leather directly, but steaming through a MF towel. I tried this on the leather on my DD Accord, and the MF cloth ended up "lifting" a good amount of grime. And my car is not at all dirty. I did the seats and steering wheel. The steering wheel especially felt like it was brand new, when I was done.
Have I? Yes. Do I continue to? No.
I have done it before, with success, without causing any type of damage. I don't use the method any longer however, especially because other less potentially dangerous techniques can work, and work safely. I don't want to worry about potential delamination (urethane coating separating), stretch marks, and spot damage on my car or anyone else's.
Here's an example of recent work:


'83 Ferrari Mondial with less than 20k miles and the leather already had some hardcore wear and "cracking" spots (these areas were where there is even more build up, which causes more wear and build up, which causes more wear and build up, etc). Especially look past the driver's seat and look at the passanger seat bottom area.




I don't have a true "after" on the driver's seat but know it was much improved. Here's an after of the passanger seat which wasn't as bad, but was still quite bad for her miles, that was turned around to like-new condition:




Here's a "near after" of the driver's seat as I was still applying an intermediate step:



Mind you this was two and a half hours of work with two guys, but it shows what's possible. Products used were Leather Master Strong Cleaner, Vital, and Protection Cream. Strong Cleaner was used with a toothbrush (hence the 2.5 time frame to complete), so every square inch of surface was thoroughly cleaned with high attention to detail.

For those more interested in Leatherique, here's a 50/50 shot of a Lincoln we did a couple years back with Rejuvenator Oil:



We applied the oil after a light vacuum to remove debris (always light vacuum before leather cleaning), applied the oil by hand (while gear gloves to not make a mess of things) by rubbing it into the surface, allowed to sit a couple of hours, and then began removing it using diluted woolite (20:1). You can also remove with Prestine Clean.

Doing work on vehicles that are in this shape takes much longer than leather care on a decently maintained car, so keep that in mind. On my own car, I give a thorough cleaning of the driver's seat one day, and then the passenger the other. This means I don't get too tired or worn out working on my car. I enjoy it more, and I'm more likely to keep up this type of work.

As you see, you can effectively care for leather using low risk products: a key in detailing your pricey vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed View Post
PLEASE... Save your leather and buy Swissvax Leather Cleaner and Leather Milk...
Says the guy working for / in bed with Swissvax... didn't see that coming
MuttGrunt is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 08:37 PM   #34
mikenap
Private First Class
 
mikenap's Avatar
 
Drives: 2004 E46 M3(sold) :(
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Charlotte/Lake Norman, NC

Posts: 106
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
Have I? Yes. Do I continue to? No.
I have done it before, with success, without causing any type of damage. I don't use the method any longer however, especially because other less potentially dangerous techniques can work, and work safely. I don't want to worry about potential delamination (urethane coating separating), stretch marks, and spot damage on my car or anyone else's.
Here's an example of recent work:


'83 Ferrari Mondial with less than 20k miles and the leather already had some hardcore wear and "cracking" spots (these areas were where there is even more build up, which causes more wear and build up, which causes more wear and build up, etc). Especially look past the driver's seat and look at the passanger seat bottom area.




I don't have a true "after" on the driver's seat but know it was much improved. Here's an after of the passanger seat which wasn't as bad, but was still quite bad for her miles, that was turned around to like-new condition:




Here's a "near after" of the driver's seat as I was still applying an intermediate step:



Mind you this was two and a half hours of work with two guys, but it shows what's possible. Products used were Leather Master Strong Cleaner, Vital, and Protection Cream. Strong Cleaner was used with a toothbrush (hence the 2.5 time frame to complete), so every square inch of surface was thoroughly cleaned with high attention to detail.

For those more interested in Leatherique, here's a 50/50 shot of a Lincoln we did a couple years back with Rejuvenator Oil:



We applied the oil after a light vacuum to remove debris (always light vacuum before leather cleaning), applied the oil by hand (while gear gloves to not make a mess of things) by rubbing it into the surface, allowed to sit a couple of hours, and then began removing it using diluted woolite (20:1). You can also remove with Prestine Clean.

Doing work on vehicles that are in this shape takes much longer than leather care on a decently maintained car, so keep that in mind. On my own car, I give a thorough cleaning of the driver's seat one day, and then the passenger the other. This means I don't get too tired or worn out working on my car. I enjoy it more, and I'm more likely to keep up this type of work.

As you see, you can effectively care for leather using low risk products: a key in detailing your pricey vehicle.



Says the guy working for / in bed with Swissvax... didn't see that coming
Nice work Marc. That Mondial looks incredible!


Just thought I'd throw this out there. Richy H from one of the detailing forums has used a magic eraser on paint defects before, and says it leaves scratches comparable to 3000 grit sandpaper. So if anyone doesn't have a magic eraser on hand, now you have another leather cleaning option.
mikenap is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 09:05 PM   #35
ScheerSpeed
Major General
 
ScheerSpeed's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 F30 Estoril M-Sport 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Miami, FL

Posts: 5,770
iTrader: (14)

Send a message via AIM to ScheerSpeed Send a message via MSN to ScheerSpeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post

Says the guy working for / in bed with Swissvax... didn't see that coming
lol I in no way work FOR Swissvax... I just like their stuff A LOT! I ditched Leather Masters and Leatherique, I've used them both... but nothing stands up to the SV stuff... seriously, if not I wouldn't spend my money on it...

ScheerSpeed is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 09:19 PM   #36
SamS
Brigadier General
 
SamS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 ActiveHybrid 3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 4,456
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
Have I? Yes. Do I continue to? No.
I have done it before, with success, without causing any type of damage. I don't use the method any longer however, especially because other less potentially dangerous techniques can work, and work safely. I don't want to worry about potential delamination (urethane coating separating), stretch marks, and spot damage on my car or anyone else's.
Good points. The hot steam actually discolored a bit of plastic on my steering wheel, I was not being careful. No way I'll use that method on my M3. But I did buy the 250ml Leather Master starter kit today on your suggestion.
SamS is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 09:49 PM   #37
MuttGrunt
Banned
 
Drives: beater;)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SE Michigan

Posts: 872
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed View Post
lol I in no way work FOR Swissvax... I just like their stuff A LOT! I ditched Leather Masters and Leatherique, I've used them both... but nothing stands up to the SV stuff... seriously, if not I wouldn't spend my money on it...
I know for a FACT you have a relationship with Swissvax USA, I'll leave it at that and hope you're not just trying to push products. I have nothing against SV and actually enjoy some of their offerings, but only pushing one brand seems a bit fishy don't you think?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Good points. The hot steam actually discolored a bit of plastic on my steering wheel, I was not being careful. No way I'll use that method on my M3. But I did buy the 250ml Leather Master starter kit today on your suggestion.
A little goes a long way and let me know if you have any questions
MuttGrunt is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 11:33 PM   #38
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,568
iTrader: (1)

I have also been frustrated with keeping my seats and steering wheel looking new and matte. I posted on my a-ha moment with the magic eraser some time ago here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=389645 . I really don't think this topic comes up anywhere close to monthly...

Anyway it really does work miracles. I basically conceded a long debate in that post about the product being abrasive, it is, but it is very mildly abrasive. Heck, rub a soft shoe sole across a stone surface for hundreds of years and it is abrasive as well. More or less everything is abrasive, it is a matter of scale. Although I have heard the horror stories of complete destruction of leather with the magic eraser I think using it infrequently and very gently won't result in any total tragedy.

I've yet to see results from any product or technique that can make leather look as factory fresh as the magic eraser.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-28-2011, 11:57 PM   #39
MuttGrunt
Banned
 
Drives: beater;)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SE Michigan

Posts: 872
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I've yet to see results from any product or technique that can make leather look as factory fresh as the magic eraser.
Did you completely browse over my above pics?

It's not always about finding a "perfect" solution, but rather a more gentle and more effective method with better long term benefits.
Everything is indeed somewhat abrasive, but that doesn't mean it's ok to use a Magic Eraser to clean leather nor a sanding disk to wash a car.
MuttGrunt is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-29-2011, 03:00 PM   #40
Hawk Lax
Second Lieutenant
 
Hawk Lax's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 M3 AW Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: L.I., N.Y.

Posts: 219
iTrader: (0)

+1 leather masters. I got a soap foamer and put a 1:1 mix of the strong cleaner and water in it for suds on demand.
Hawk Lax is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-29-2011, 03:21 PM   #41
Z K
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Z K's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 1,869
iTrader: (3)

I've been using 1Z Einszett Leather Care for regular maintenance. Seems to work pretty well and leaves a matte finish.
Z K is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-29-2011, 03:38 PM   #42
Singletrack
4th down; 4th quarter? Renegade.
 
Singletrack's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 SSII E92 M3; 12 AW X5d
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Posts: 3,791
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I've yet to see results from any product or technique that can make leather look as factory fresh as the magic eraser.
Swissvax leather brush + OEM BMW leather cleaner. I guarantee it.
Singletrack is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-29-2011, 08:44 PM   #43
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,568
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
Did you completely browse over my above pics?
Yes, the leather looks way too shiny after these treatments and nowhere close to OEM. Now granted improvements are marked but it does not get the look many desire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuttGrunt View Post
It's not always about finding a "perfect" solution, but rather a more gentle and more effective method with better long term benefits.
Everything is indeed somewhat abrasive, but that doesn't mean it's ok to use a Magic Eraser to clean leather nor a sanding disk to wash a car.
That's basically a false dilemma. A much better analogy might be magic eraser vs. a gentle pad on an orbital with a super fine polish. Both are technically abrasive. If both are used infrequently there is probably nothing wrong with either.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-29-2011, 11:00 PM   #44
MuttGrunt
Banned
 
Drives: beater;)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SE Michigan

Posts: 872
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Yes, the leather looks way too shiny after these treatments and nowhere close to OEM. Now granted improvements are marked but it does not get the look many desire.

That's basically a false dilemma. A much better analogy might be magic eraser vs. a gentle pad on an orbital with a super fine polish. Both are technically abrasive. If both are used infrequently there is probably nothing wrong with either.

It's not very often I have to say this so bluntly:
You obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about.


Not only are you an expert on what 1983 Ferrari leather is supposed to look like in setting sunlight, you still argue that a Magic Eraser is perfectly fine to use for maintaining leather? A Magic Eraser on leather is like an ultra fine polish step applied by machine?

More pics of the same leather shown on page two, but of a different angle in different lighting conditions, showing the difference made in removing years of build-up:












Members of Bimmerpost - you're going to have to decide for yourself. I can help lead you to water, but I can't make you drink. Choose to follow the advice of Swamp2 if you'd like; no pictures, no proof, no leather care industry backing in his methods. You can also can choose to follow my advice: non edited photo proof, backed by leather care specialists as a proper way to keep your leather in outstanding shape over years. The decision is yours: Mr Clean versus Leather Master / LTT leather Care / Leatherique.
MuttGrunt is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST