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View Poll Results: What Transmission did you pick and why?
DCT ordered with other options then waited for delivery 83 35.62%
DCT from dealers lot with other options I was looking for 35 15.02%
MT ordered with other options then waited for delivery 73 31.33%
MT from dealers lot with other options I was looking for 42 18.03%
Voters: 233. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-23-2011, 03:47 PM   #89
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My question is would you consider DCT a manual or automatic transmission when filling out an insurance form. I'm going to get DCT because I don't want to have commute daily 30 miles with a manual transmission in traffic.
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      09-23-2011, 05:01 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW//M View Post
My question is would you consider DCT a manual or automatic transmission when filling out an insurance form. I'm going to get DCT because I don't want to have commute daily 30 miles with a manual transmission in traffic.
Well now that you ask it is actually both ... since you will have the paddles and the option of the stick (move left then back and forth to shift gears). To your question on the insurance I guess it would count as a automatic (however I stand to be corrected).

I had the SMG transmission on my former m3 (e46) much the same as the DCT only that the DCT is an improvement over the SMG.

Some of my former cars were MT and I sort of missed it so I went back to the MT. In retrospect my next one will be again a DCT or whatever BMW will have at the time

Have fun with whatever you will get in the end ...
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      09-23-2011, 06:56 PM   #91
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DCT because it's my daily driver. My other car is already manual
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      09-23-2011, 08:06 PM   #92
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DCT because driving stick on the 405 just doesn't make sense
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      09-24-2011, 09:28 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by NAForever View Post
DCT because driving stick on the 405 just doesn't make sense
Lol the 405...how about just any fwy here in la/oc.. 1-2-1-2-1-2....until you start getting suicidal thoughts
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      09-24-2011, 10:35 AM   #94
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I have owned both DCT and the 6MT...Both are amazing, its all about "whatever floats your boat." I loved them both equally for different reasons and to be honest I would be just as happy with either one. However, I dont have to commute to work in heavy traffic, if I did I would choose the DCT without question.

Oh and I have 5 pins in my left foot so the DCT is a little easier on me for prolonged drives

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      09-24-2011, 11:21 AM   #95
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I have ordered DCT. It will be my first autocar. I am really worried that I will not like it but I want to try it and I think it helps selling later. I only want to have the car for 1 year.
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      09-24-2011, 12:17 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW//M View Post
My question is would you consider DCT a manual or automatic transmission when filling out an insurance form. I'm going to get DCT because I don't want to have commute daily 30 miles with a manual transmission in traffic.
Tranny type doesn't make any difference to the insurance companies.

As to your second statement, your point is well taken. Interestingly, at least to me, is this little nugget about the benefits of a manual over anything without a third pedal.

Quote:
Stick shift: Learn it, drive it

As mentioned, it's still a good idea to learn to drive a stick shift.

Here's why, courtesy of Eddie Alterman, the editor-in-chief of Car and Driver magazine, who last year launched a "Save the Manuals!" campaign in response to dwindling industry production of the stick shift:

It's enjoyable: "It's more fun to have control over the gears," says Alterman, noting "the gratification of a well-timed heel-toe downshift."

It's revivable: "You can start your car if it's got a dead battery by popping the clutch on a hill, whereas with an automatic you have to get a jump or a tow," he says.

It requires focus: "If you're worried about your kid texting while driving, there's no way they can do all this at once," Alterman says. "It's a big deterrent to doing anything behind the wheel other than driving."

It's fuel-efficient: When driven correctly, a manual transmission delivers more miles per gallon than an automatic.

It's cheap: A manual transmission has fewer parts, so it's less expensive to repair. When offered as an option, it also typically costs less to buy.

It offers control: "You think there would be all these unintended acceleration problems if people had stick shifts?" asks Alterman.

It will get you from Point A to Point B: What if there's an emergency and the only vehicle has a stick? 'Nuf said.

http://money.msn.com/auto-insurance/...ft-device.aspx
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      09-24-2011, 03:21 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW//M View Post
My question is would you consider DCT a manual or automatic transmission when filling out an insurance form. I'm going to get DCT because I don't want to have commute daily 30 miles with a manual transmission in traffic.
There is no question whatsoever that DCT is an automatic transmission. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves. Yes, it has a clutch based mechanism, but since it is capable of shifting automatically, it is an automatic. Torque converter autos are also available these days with paddle shifters, and actually, function quite well this way. The new 8-speed auto in the 550i shifts very quickly and smoothly with the paddles and yet it is not a DCT.

From a pure performance standpoint, we have arrived at the time where the automatic can outperform the manual. It didn't used to be this way. The reasons for buying a manual now are different.
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      09-25-2011, 09:06 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW//M View Post
My question is would you consider DCT a manual or automatic transmission when filling out an insurance form. I'm going to get DCT because I don't want to have commute daily 30 miles with a manual transmission in traffic.
Someone else asked this in an earlier thread, and the consensus was that automatic should be chosen. Insurance uses that mostly to gauge the possible cost of repairs and DCT just like a traditional auto would be more expensive to repair than stick. Plus any insurance adjuster would probably just look in the footwell, only see two pedals, and say "It's an automatic". If you pointed to the paddle shifters as a manual mode, he would correctly say that lots of automatic transmissions allow that, and if you then tried to explain 2 clutches vs a slushbox, he'd probably give you a blank stare.
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      09-25-2011, 12:18 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVG View Post
There is no question whatsoever that DCT is an automatic transmission. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves. Yes, it has a clutch based mechanism, but since it is capable of shifting automatically, it is an automatic. Torque converter autos are also available these days with paddle shifters, and actually, function quite well this way. The new 8-speed auto in the 550i shifts very quickly and smoothly with the paddles and yet it is not a DCT.

From a pure performance standpoint, we have arrived at the time where the automatic can outperform the manual. It didn't used to be this way. The reasons for buying a manual now are different.
Ran across this article.


The Dual-Clutch Transmissions Goes Down In Front Of The 8-speed Gear Box


The German automotive manufacturer ZF announced that BMW might give up in favor of dual-clutch transmissions automatic transmission with eight steps. The same measure could be taken also by Porsche regarding PDK transmission.

The double-clutch transmissions from BMW could be replaced with eight-speed gear automatic transmission boxes. This situation was basically launched from the ZF company sources, the DCT transmission supplier for BMW and PDK for Porsche. It seems that the two types of gearboxes are niche products, which are extremely expensive to manufacture and have limited utility in the range of the two manufacturers. It seems that the existing materials and technologies do not support a higher torque.

The most prominent argument of the hypothesis that the DCT transmission will disappear from the range of BMW M models lies in equipping the X5 M and X6 M. The two SUVs are equipped with a performing automatic transmission to provide updated technical changes of speed as fast as with a dual-clutch units. Eliminating the DCT Series M transmission from the Bavarian manufacturer could lead to a ceasing production of this type of transmission line and its replacement with an eight-speed automatic gearbox, which already has been created by ZF engineers. The BMW 760i BMW F01 is the first BMW model that will use this type of transmission.

While some manufacturers still offer automatic transmissions with four or five-speed, ZF people in Detroit had an automatic gearbox with nine steps, destined to the cars with front wheel drive and transverse engine.

The experts from ZF presented a new automatic transmission. In addition to the record number of gears, nine, the new unit is for use on cars with transverse engines. This means that the nine-speed ZF transmission will be implemented on a front-wheel drive model. According to first information, the new transmission will debut on a Chrysler model, but there are good chances for it to go further on BMW models with front wheel drive and in other manufacturers ranges.

Thanks to how to change module took over from the eight-speed transmission made for models with engine located longitudinally, the changes will be extremely fast speed and will not be felt by the driver or passenger.[/size][/font]
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      09-25-2011, 12:53 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Ran across this article.


The Dual-Clutch Transmissions Goes Down In Front Of The 8-speed Gear Box


The German automotive manufacturer ZF announced that BMW might give up in favor of dual-clutch transmissions automatic transmission with eight steps. The same measure could be taken also by Porsche regarding PDK transmission.

The double-clutch transmissions from BMW could be replaced with eight-speed gear automatic transmission boxes. This situation was basically launched from the ZF company sources, the DCT transmission supplier for BMW and PDK for Porsche. It seems that the two types of gearboxes are niche products, which are extremely expensive to manufacture and have limited utility in the range of the two manufacturers. It seems that the existing materials and technologies do not support a higher torque.

The most prominent argument of the hypothesis that the DCT transmission will disappear from the range of BMW M models lies in equipping the X5 M and X6 M. The two SUVs are equipped with a performing automatic transmission to provide updated technical changes of speed as fast as with a dual-clutch units. Eliminating the DCT Series M transmission from the Bavarian manufacturer could lead to a ceasing production of this type of transmission line and its replacement with an eight-speed automatic gearbox, which already has been created by ZF engineers. The BMW 760i BMW F01 is the first BMW model that will use this type of transmission.

While some manufacturers still offer automatic transmissions with four or five-speed, ZF people in Detroit had an automatic gearbox with nine steps, destined to the cars with front wheel drive and transverse engine.

The experts from ZF presented a new automatic transmission. In addition to the record number of gears, nine, the new unit is for use on cars with transverse engines. This means that the nine-speed ZF transmission will be implemented on a front-wheel drive model. According to first information, the new transmission will debut on a Chrysler model, but there are good chances for it to go further on BMW models with front wheel drive and in other manufacturers ranges.

Thanks to how to change module took over from the eight-speed transmission made for models with engine located longitudinally, the changes will be extremely fast speed and will not be felt by the driver or passenger.[/size][/font]
No surprise there since nothing is being left untouched in the quest to wring out maximum fuel efficiency from vehicles thanks to the constant bar raising regulations.

However, can you begin to imagine the exhaust note of those 8 or 9 close gear ratio equipped vehicles that are shifiting within an relatively narrow rpm bandwith at an also relatively modest 6k or 7k rpm for an upper limit?
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      09-25-2011, 01:48 PM   #101
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I believe that article predates the announcement that the F10 M5 would be using the 7DCT and not the 8AMT, even as many sources claimed the ZF DCT would not be able to cope with the torque from the S63.
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      09-25-2011, 02:04 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Ran across this article.


The Dual-Clutch Transmissions Goes Down In Front Of The 8-speed Gear Box

...
The article says ZF supplies BMW dct, which is wrong. This is the m3 dct: http://www.getrag.com/en/252
This is reason enough to doubt the rest of the article. See also: http://www.dctfacts.com/archive/2009...trags-dct.aspx

I don't know about the m5 but I suspect getrag provides that too.
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      09-25-2011, 02:11 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I believe that article predates the announcement that the F10 M5 would be using the 7DCT and not the 8AMT, even as many sources claimed the ZF DCT would not be able to cope with the torque from the S63.
I am not sure whether that article came out before the announcement or not. FWIW McLaren is using a DCT (with no MT available) in the MP4-12C whcih has 443 Lb/Ft of torque.

I heard ZF engineers speak at a presentation and they said that they expected that future versions of "traditonal" planetary gear automatic transmissions would rival and perhaps match the peformance of DCTs. They also felt that a torque converter is a very good device for smooth starts and as long as they get locked up at low speeds they have negligable effect on performance and efficiency.

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      09-25-2011, 02:16 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r53s65e90 View Post
The article says ZF supplies BMW dct, which is wrong. This is the m3 dct: http://www.getrag.com/en/252
This is reason enough to doubt the rest of the article. See also: http://www.dctfacts.com/archive/2009...trags-dct.aspx

I don't know about the m5 but I suspect getrag provides that too.
I believe that Getrag does supply the BMW DCT but ZF also manufacturers DCT transmissions and is the supplier of the Porsche PDK. Until I read the article I was not aware the the X6M did not come with a DCT.

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      09-25-2011, 09:02 PM   #105
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I opted for a manual (..as I always have; the only automatic that I've ever owned is the one and ONLY car that my mother purchased for me in high school), and I'll continue to opt for a manual regardless of the slight performance variance with regards to shift speed. There simply is no replacement for rowing the cogs IMHO.

I still think that the DCT technology is impressive however.
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      09-26-2011, 08:31 AM   #106
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Quote:
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I am not sure whether that article came out before the announcement or not. FWIW McLaren is using a DCT (with no MT available) in the MP4-12C whcih has 443 Lb/Ft of torque.
Yep. For that matter, the Panamera S has 500+ ft-lb and uses a DCT as well (no manual available there either), so those who said this type of gearbox could not handle the torque were always just speaking from ignorance.

Quote:
I heard ZF engineers speak at a presentation and they said that they expected that future versions of "traditonal" planetary gear automatic transmissions would rival and perhaps match the peformance of DCTs. They also felt that a torque converter is a very good device for smooth starts and as long as they get locked up at low speeds they have negligable effect on performance and efficiency.
I don't necessarily disagree with them. However, I'll believe it when I see Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc, using torque converters in their cars again. Porsche used to use them of course, but now all of Porsche's passenger cars are using dual clutch gearboxes (their light trucks do use autos). Clearly there is something to be gained, or they would not have made this change. I also will point out that Ford and VW have been replacing their torque converter automatics in every day cars with dual clutch transmissions. They cite efficiency as a big reason.
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Last edited by mkoesel; 09-26-2011 at 08:36 AM.
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      09-26-2011, 08:34 AM   #107
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Good catch. Yes, all BMW DCTs are Getrag. Porsche uses ZF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by r53s65e90 View Post
The article says ZF supplies BMW dct, which is wrong. This is the m3 dct: http://www.getrag.com/en/252
This is reason enough to doubt the rest of the article. See also: http://www.dctfacts.com/archive/2009...trags-dct.aspx

I don't know about the m5 but I suspect getrag provides that too.
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      09-26-2011, 09:26 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Yep. For that matter, the Panamera S has 500+ ft-lb and uses a DCT as well (no manual available there either), so those who said this type of gearbox could not handle the torque were always just speaking from ignorance.



I don't necessarily disagree with them. However, I'll believe it when I see Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc, using torque converters in their cars again. Porsche used to use them of course, but now all of Porsche's passenger cars are using dual clutch gearboxes (their light trucks do use autos). Clearly there is something to be gained, or they would not have made this change. I also will point out that Ford and VW have been replacing their torque converter automatics in every day cars with dual clutch transmissions. They cite efficiency as a big reason.
Who knows what the future will bring but what ZF is saying is that they feel that they can equal the performance of a DCT with a planetary "traditional" automatic. They are not there yet but the best of the ATs are approaching DCT shift times. At some point further improvements in shift time from either technology will be moot. The newest 8 speed ZF is modular and can be built with either a torque converter or a multi-plate clutch pack (AMG is using this technology in some of their cars as well).

I think that the appeal of the DCT is two fold. Part of the appeal is the technology and the fast shift times and part of the appeal is the idea that it is "not really an Automatic Transmission" and does not have the stigma of being a "Slushbox".



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      09-26-2011, 02:58 PM   #109
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Looks like very close to the 50/50 I saw someplace
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      09-27-2011, 11:40 AM   #110
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Anyone of you haver the lap times for the M-DCT to compare to the MT posted here?

http://i56.tinypic.com/2zj010k.jpg

Nice to see our e92 is faster then all except for the CLS e46 .... not that it matters much
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