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      09-24-2011, 03:10 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by KJ View Post
I got the exact same ticket in court in Toronto. I used the exact same line of questioning as you did in court:
- How did you know it was too loud?
- What is too loud in dB?
- Did you have a decibal reading device?

If not, he has NO measurable way of saying your car was too loud.

Long story short, the judge threw the ticket out.

It took quite a while to go through the trial because people don't normally go through trial. By the time we were finished, the people from the next time slot were already waiting in the court room.

I basically proved the cop was full of shit and people were saying to me on the way out "Hey buddy, you did a great job up there".

On my way out of the court room, 1 of the 3 cops that were stuck in the room waiting for me to finish (it's not proper if they get up midway through my trial so they had to wait until I finished) comes up to me and this bitch says to me (i.e. female officer) "I KNOW YOUR EXHAUST IS ILLEGAL AND YOU KNOW IT TOO. THE NEXT TIME I PULL YOU OVER I'M GOING TO TOW YOUR CAR AWAY!!!".

Stupid bitch didn't know shit because my exhaust was 100% LEGAL.

I would fight this for sure because this guy is full of shit.

He sounds like a jealous guy who pulls over nice cars.

I'd actually like to know his name in case he was the same prick that pulled me over!
+++ good method of defeating his argument - well done!
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      09-24-2011, 07:12 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by turkish335 View Post
+++ good method of defeating his argument - well done!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ View Post
I got the exact same ticket in court in Toronto. I used the exact same line of questioning as you did in court:
- How did you know it was too loud?
- What is too loud in dB?
- Did you have a decibal reading device?

If not, he has NO measurable way of saying your car was too loud.

Long story short, the judge threw the ticket out.

It took quite a while to go through the trial because people don't normally go through trial. By the time we were finished, the people from the next time slot were already waiting in the court room.

I basically proved the cop was full of shit and people were saying to me on the way out "Hey buddy, you did a great job up there".

On my way out of the court room, 1 of the 3 cops that were stuck in the room waiting for me to finish (it's not proper if they get up midway through my trial so they had to wait until I finished) comes up to me and this bitch says to me (i.e. female officer) "I KNOW YOUR EXHAUST IS ILLEGAL AND YOU KNOW IT TOO. THE NEXT TIME I PULL YOU OVER I'M GOING TO TOW YOUR CAR AWAY!!!".

Stupid bitch didn't know shit because my exhaust was 100% LEGAL.

I would fight this for sure because this guy is full of shit.

He sounds like a jealous guy who pulls over nice cars.

I'd actually like to know his name in case he was the same prick that pulled me over!
Yeah, this will be my exact approach once the court date comes up. Plus I'm going to ask for a copy of the audio and video footage from the incident with the officer.
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      01-23-2012, 04:57 AM   #69
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Sorry to bump this thread...but what was the outcome ?
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      01-23-2012, 08:26 AM   #70
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First weekend with a car, I was driving through a neighborhood near my house and got stopped by a mounted police man (very funny I know.). First word out of his mouth was "oh it's a spoiled kid with a spoiled car." after asking him why I was pulled over he kept telling me not to be a smart ass (I was being extremely polite. After about 10 minutes he tells me I semi ran a stop sign. Confused I asked him what that was and he said it was that I stopped with my front wheels touching the white line. He gave me a ticket for that and a ticket for not having the new insurance (hadn't come in the mail since car was delivered Friday night and I was pulled over sunday morning.). So fought both tickets in court, got them thrown away and cop was placed on probation as it was not the first complaint about him mistreating people.
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      01-23-2012, 09:33 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimSimma View Post
So on the way to dropping my kids off at the daycare this morning I got pulled over by the police. I knew I didnt do anything illegal so I wasnt sure of the cause.

When the cop approached me he mentioned that I have an improper muffler on my car that's too loud. (I have an Active Autowerke's exhaust on my '08 M3). I asked him how he knew it was too loud. I asked if there was a sound level that my car had surpassed and if he had a decibel metre to in fact deem my car to be too loud. He responds by asking if I can hear any of the other cars passing by. I mention yes and he says that they're not as loud as me. I respond by asking how do you compare a V8 engine to a 4 cylinder car. He doesnt respond but asks me for my information.

After 10 minutes he returns with 2 tickets....one for improper muffler ($110) and one for unnessary noise ($110). He tells me my options which are to "fix" my muffler and the tickets can be tossed or I can proceed to fight them in court which I plan on doing. He finishes by saying, and I quote "I know you have a nice car and like your nice car and I too have a nice sporty car that I like. I have a 1991 Camaro. But I dont need to hear your car. If I see you again I cant write you the same tickets but I will summons you to court where you can do jail time".

WTF!!! At this point I mention that I've lived in the area for over 7 years, have passed numerous police without issue and havent so much as received an infraction in my car of any kind. He says that I havent seen him before and that if he sees me again he will summons me to court.

The kicker is, that this same cop pulled my wife over in her Lexus IS250 for going through a stop sign less than a month ago (which she too is fighting) and he kept mentioning to her stuff about her "nice" car.

So, my question to you fellow M3 owners:

- Have any of you ever received such tickets for your aftermarket exhausts? If so, how did you handle it?
- Have any fellow Canadians (in the Toronto area especially) ever encountered such tickets?
- Should my wife and I file a formal complaint with his division for his behaviour and comments or will this open a can of worms with other cops coming down on us as they do tend to protect their own?

Any feedback you can provide would be appreciated.

Cheers.
It's an old post I know. This cop sounds like a real Cowboy if you ask me. Back in Feb of 2009 I had a cop pull me over in his shit box Camery, yah that's right his family car. He proceeds to write me up for Careless Driving I'm like what did I do I was just driving home with my wife & daughter minding my own business.

This idot told me to get out of the car where he proceeds to theaten me with calling a marked car and having me taken in however since I was with my family he would show some mercy on me (gee thanks assshole).

In the end I hired X Coper and took this Cowboy to court and all charges were dropped. I guess so since I did nothing wrong. Cost me $$$ for the lawyer but saved my ass pionts and insurance increase.

Where in Toronto did you get nabbed? I was heading West bound on Kingston Rd near Bellamy when this happened to me.
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      01-24-2012, 02:17 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by SimSimma View Post
Thanks for the input KJ.

The officer was from 11 Division and I got pulled over at Annette and Keele.

My wife and I are both fighting our tickets with this officer and have requested court dates. Last Wednesday, we met with the officer's Inspector of the Division. We came in with the approach that we werent there to try to get out of the tickets as we plan on fighting those through the proper channels in court. We explained that we were there to bring it to his attention that we were concerned on how we were treated as citizens and that we had issue with the conduct of one of his officer's.

The Inspector gave us kudos for coming in and chatting to him as he recognized that it's not an easy decision to do. He also mentioned that as citizens we have every right to voice our concerns with any officer we encounter. He said that we could file a formal complaint with the police board but we didnt feel we needed to go down that road.....yet. We explained both our situations in detail. He took notes, said he would have to review the audio and video footage, speak to the officer and get back to us with his findings which could take a month.

I mentioned that I didnt appreciate being threatened in front of my children to do jail time over an exhaust. He agreed that, while the officer was correct that I technically could be summonsed to court for breaking the law repeatedly, it is extreme for an officer to threaten jail time for an exhaust. He said there's no way that would happen.

So the Inspector finished by giving us his card and saying that we have nothing to fear in our neighbourhood and that if we ever felt threatened or targetted by any officer to give him a call directly.

So, after this meeting we feel better about reporting this incident to a superior. Time will tell what he finds or comes back with. Regardless, we will press on and fight these charges in the court.

Once I hear back from the Inspector I will post his response to our situation.

Thanks again for those that have responded with support and feedback.
+1

Very mature and civil aproach, much respect to you and your wife. Good luck at trial!
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      01-25-2012, 08:24 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimSimma View Post
So on the way to dropping my kids off at the daycare this morning I got pulled over by the police. I knew I didnt do anything illegal so I wasnt sure of the cause.

When the cop approached me he mentioned that I have an improper muffler on my car that's too loud. (I have an Active Autowerke's exhaust on my '08 M3). I asked him how he knew it was too loud. I asked if there was a sound level that my car had surpassed and if he had a decibel metre to in fact deem my car to be too loud. He responds by asking if I can hear any of the other cars passing by. I mention yes and he says that they're not as loud as me. I respond by asking how do you compare a V8 engine to a 4 cylinder car. He doesnt respond but asks me for my information.

After 10 minutes he returns with 2 tickets....one for improper muffler ($110) and one for unnessary noise ($110). He tells me my options which are to "fix" my muffler and the tickets can be tossed or I can proceed to fight them in court which I plan on doing. He finishes by saying, and I quote "I know you have a nice car and like your nice car and I too have a nice sporty car that I like. I have a 1991 Camaro. But I dont need to hear your car. If I see you again I cant write you the same tickets but I will summons you to court where you can do jail time".

WTF!!! At this point I mention that I've lived in the area for over 7 years, have passed numerous police without issue and havent so much as received an infraction in my car of any kind. He says that I havent seen him before and that if he sees me again he will summons me to court.

The kicker is, that this same cop pulled my wife over in her Lexus IS250 for going through a stop sign less than a month ago (which she too is fighting) and he kept mentioning to her stuff about her "nice" car.

So, my question to you fellow M3 owners:

- Have any of you ever received such tickets for your aftermarket exhausts? If so, how did you handle it?
- Have any fellow Canadians (in the Toronto area especially) ever encountered such tickets?
- Should my wife and I file a formal complaint with his division for his behaviour and comments or will this open a can of worms with other cops coming down on us as they do tend to protect their own?

Any feedback you can provide would be appreciated.

Cheers.
Does Toronto have a law similar to California's "Trial by written declaration"? If so, you might want to go this route.

Otherwise I'm not sure how you can go about things. I suspect that in order to "prove" that you fixed it you'd need some sort of measure in dB. Is there a threshold in the Canadian law? If there is, perhaps a shop can verify that you are below that?

Maybe taking it by a local station to get it signed off and having the officer there verify that it isn't "too loud"?
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      01-25-2012, 08:33 PM   #74
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Its interesting to read the responses to my issue. I guess on these forums it's difficult to express tone of the situation and every nuance of how everything went down.The officer pulled me over within 25 yards of me passing him....I noticed him and clearly wasnt revving my engine excessively. I barely got out of 1st gear before his cherries came on so he didnt even get to hear my car for no more than a few seconds.

Me getting an aftermarket exhaust is totally on me....I get that. It's the risk I take. But his tone about my "nice car" and the way he mentioned the same thing to my wife in a seperate instance seems like he's profiling by class. The way he also threatened me in front of my kids that I will be summonsed the next time he sees me and could receive jail time seems extreme and inappropriate....over what, an exhaust????!!!!

Anyway, I've spoken to my next door neighbour who is a retired officer and he agrees that the officer I encountered is out of line. He suggested that we file a complaint directly with the Inspector of the officer's division which we will do on Tuesday after the long weekend.
Only you know precisely what happened so I'll take your version. I agree with you that reporting it is the correct thing to do. Most officers are doing their best while performing a difficult job. There are a few that need to be reprimanded or canned. This officer appears to be one of those.

I don't worry too much about reporting an officer and getting harassment. I have enough patients who are current/former officers and a few DAs/ADAs to help run interference if someone gets out of line. Just make sure that you realize what the report can mean for you. If you aren't at least a "bit connected", it might end up being a bigger headache than it is worth.
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      01-26-2012, 03:16 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by SimSimma View Post
So on the way to dropping my kids off at the daycare this morning I got pulled over by the police. I knew I didnt do anything illegal so I wasnt sure of the cause.

When the cop approached me he mentioned that I have an improper muffler on my car that's too loud. (I have an Active Autowerke's exhaust on my '08 M3). I asked him how he knew it was too loud. I asked if there was a sound level that my car had surpassed and if he had a decibel metre to in fact deem my car to be too loud. He responds by asking if I can hear any of the other cars passing by. I mention yes and he says that they're not as loud as me. I respond by asking how do you compare a V8 engine to a 4 cylinder car. He doesnt respond but asks me for my information.

After 10 minutes he returns with 2 tickets....one for improper muffler ($110) and one for unnessary noise ($110). He tells me my options which are to "fix" my muffler and the tickets can be tossed or I can proceed to fight them in court which I plan on doing. He finishes by saying, and I quote "I know you have a nice car and like your nice car and I too have a nice sporty car that I like. I have a 1991 Camaro. But I dont need to hear your car. If I see you again I cant write you the same tickets but I will summons you to court where you can do jail time".

WTF!!! At this point I mention that I've lived in the area for over 7 years, have passed numerous police without issue and havent so much as received an infraction in my car of any kind. He says that I havent seen him before and that if he sees me again he will summons me to court.

The kicker is, that this same cop pulled my wife over in her Lexus IS250 for going through a stop sign less than a month ago (which she too is fighting) and he kept mentioning to her stuff about her "nice" car.

So, my question to you fellow M3 owners:

- Have any of you ever received such tickets for your aftermarket exhausts? If so, how did you handle it?
- Have any fellow Canadians (in the Toronto area especially) ever encountered such tickets?
- Should my wife and I file a formal complaint with his division for his behaviour and comments or will this open a can of worms with other cops coming down on us as they do tend to protect their own?

Any feedback you can provide would be appreciated.

Cheers.

Where in Toronto are you from? I live north of the city but I have had some funny encounters with the police. I used RaceStart and took the car up to 90km/h in an 80. The cop pulled me over and said that was 'reckless' I told him I didn't know I couldn't accelerate that quickly! He let me go with a warning. Another time I was cruising with my brother and got pulled over for no reason. When I asked why I go pulled over, the officer said routine traffic stop. I told him I would like my license back so I could go on my way. He let me go but was very ticked off. And finally I had someone call the police and say I flashed a gun at them, and that I was a shady criminal threatening them and they had proof! I studied engineering and am anything but and don't even know where I would even be able to get a weapon. (Of course they had no proof, some people just don't appreciate others driving nice cars) The police came to my house and were very harsh. Yes my car is black with black rims but its the noise that makes people uneasy I guess. Long story short, just like you I find the cops in Toronto so ridiculous and although I have been pulled over multiple times, Ive never been ticked for these stupid things. My C63 is loud to say the least... If I ever get one of these I would do the somethings you spoke of! Good for you going into the police station and stating your opinion!
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      01-27-2012, 10:28 AM   #76
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You deserved to get pulled over for having that fart can on a M3.
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      01-27-2012, 10:38 AM   #77
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Yep, that's one reason I'm buying the PE. If all else fails, I can say it's OEM therefore it must be street legal.

Of course the PE is quieter than other back sections, so this may not Ben an issue for it anyway.
That doesn't guarantee it'll be legal. There are manufacturers which sell aftermarket exhaust systems which are not legal to use in all states.
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      01-27-2012, 12:13 PM   #78
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I have a dosimeter in my car for this specific reason. I've also walked up to his police car and tested it at 95 db. GG officer. I've taken my cars to court. The police officer never shows up and I get my tickets waived.
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      01-27-2012, 01:27 PM   #79
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What a douche...
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      01-27-2012, 05:42 PM   #80
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I am sooooo tired of hearing how cops put their lives on the line every day to protect all of us helpless "civilians" from the scum of the earth. Do you realize that being a cop is one of the safest jobs on the planet? Do you realize that the vast majority of cops killed on the job are killed in traffic accidents? You want to talk about people that put their lives on the line to help the average person? Try farmers, fisherman, minors, truck drivers, oil rig workers, iron workers, electricians or people in the construction trades. Every one of those is more dangerous than being a cop. If you don't believe me try the

US Bureau of Labor Statistics.

The majority of cops are decent, hard working, honest folks. However, there is a not insignificant number of douche-bags wearing badges and carrying guns out there. So there is nothing wrong with people coming out and complaining when they've been treated like crap by someone who's job it is to serve and protect.

Citizens elect leaders to make laws in the interest of the citizens.
This includes laws that protect you from attack, burglary, etc.
Police are supposed to uphold the law, meaning prevent attack, burglary, etc.

I'm annoyed to no end seeing things like the 'Virginia Tech shootings', with a crowd of cops standing around outside the building, doing NOTHING to stop whoever is inside. Waiting out the perpetrator until he gives up or kills himself... while [in the meantime] he could be killing more people. Some sacrifice...
They're trained to first protect themselves. Helping citizens is secondary...

You call the cops because people are trespassing, dumping trash on your property, and they say 'they don't have time to deal with it'.

You go to them because someone defrauded you. You give them the transaction details, the perpetrators name, address, bank account, etc, and they say 'they don't have time to deal with it'.

But what do they have time for? Writing speeding tickets...

Like getting pulled over and having a gun pointed at you for going 15 over (on a highway/byway)?
Nice to know that they'd rather risk our lives (with a trip/stumble that could make them set off the gun), than risk their own approaching a citizen they should be protecting. (Looks more like they would sacrifice citizens before sacrificing themselves...)

Ever stopped to ask for directions, and have them turn on you for 'interrupting' their chat? Making out like you're lucky they tolerated it...

Or asked a cop at a roadblock if you can get by to go to your house that's a few hundred feet past, and had them go off on your for 'threatening their life', because 'you could be approaching them for anything, including to kill them'? (Psycho...)

What a F'ing waste of air those people.

And then they want a pat on the back for their 'sacrifice'.
They signed up for the job. They get PAID to do it. That's not sacrifice, that's a job that they AGREED TO THE TERMS OF. This isn't conscription, no one is forcing them to do it. If they don't like it, they're welcome to switch jobs to something else. If they don't like it, they should have thought ahead before making life decisions.

Literally, HALF of my interactions with cops were plain getting harassed.
The other half were decent people (50/50 is NOT good odds).
Every time I've asked them for help, I'd get told to get lost or they harassed me for it.

Friggin' criminals have not been as much of a problem for me...

AND I never argued with a cop.
Always yes sir, no sir, etc.
Always polite to them, even when they're turning colors screaming at me with psycho rages.

Funny extra, ex gf who liked to date cops... stories about them flying off the hook, kicking down her door, breaking into her place at night, etc. She ended up buying a gun to protect herself.

-scheherazade

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      01-27-2012, 05:48 PM   #81
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Delete (refresh re-posted).

-scheherazade
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      01-27-2012, 05:51 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
Citizens elect leaders to make laws in the interest of the citizens.
This includes laws that protect you from attack, burglary, etc.
Police are supposed to uphold the law, meaning prevent attack, burglary, etc.

I'm annoyed to no end seeing things like the 'Virginia Tech shootings', with a crowd of cops standing around outside the building, doing NOTHING to stop whoever is inside. Waiting out the perpetrator until he gives up or kills himself... while [in the meantime] he could be killing more people. Some sacrifice...
They're trained to first protect themselves. Helping citizens is secondary...

You call the cops because people are trespassing, dumping trash on your property, and they say 'they don't have time to deal with it'.

You go to them because someone defrauded you. You give them the transaction details, the perpetrators name, address, bank account, etc, and they say 'they don't have time to deal with it'.

But what do they have time for? Writing speeding tickets...

Like getting pulled over and having a gun pointed at you for going 15 over (on a highway/byway)?
Nice to know that they'd rather risk our lives (with a trip/stumble that could make them set off the gun), than risk their own approaching a citizen they should be protecting. (Looks more like they would sacrifice citizens before sacrificing themselves...)

Ever stopped to ask for directions, and have them turn on you for 'interrupting' their chat? Making out like you're lucky they tolerated it...

Or asked a cop at a roadblock if you can get by to go to your house that's a few hundred feet past, and had them go off on your for 'threatening their life', because 'you could be approaching them for anything, including to kill them'? (Psycho...)

What a F'ing waste of air those people.

And then they want a pat on the back for their 'sacrifice'.
They signed up for the job. They get PAID to do it. That's not sacrifice, that's a job that they AGREED TO THE TERMS OF. This isn't conscription, no one is forcing them to do it. If they don't like it, they're welcome to switch jobs to something else. If they don't like it, they should have thought ahead before making life decisions.

Literally, HALF of my interactions with cops were plain getting harassed.
The other half were decent people (50/50 is NOT good odds).
Every time I've asked them for help, I get told to get lost or they harass me for it.

Friggin' criminals have not been as much of a problem for me...

AND I never argued with a cop.
Always yes sir, no sir, etc.
Always polite to them, even when they're turning colors screaming at me with psycho rages.

Funny extra, ex gf who liked to date cops... stories about them flying off the hook, kicking down her door, breaking into her place at night, etc. She ended up buying a gun to protect herself.

-scheherazade

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      01-27-2012, 05:58 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by DOOBEE View Post
The civic guys ruined this for us... And it sounds like long weekend BS.
SRT-8 has factory straight pipes.
Stock C6 makes the loudest civic sound like a mouse.
Any Harley will 'deafen you to death'.

We all can make fun of ricers... but really, there's just plain discrimination between brands of cars/bikes.

If you've got American-muscle, you're gonna get 10% of the attention that cars much quieter ever will.

-scheherazade
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      01-27-2012, 08:42 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post

If you've got American-muscle, you're gonna get 10% of the attention that cars much quieter ever will.

-scheherazade
This is very true, I drive a C5Z with full exhaust, headers, cam, intake, etc. and any attention I get from cops for the noise has always been positive. Now when I used to drive a Mazda 6 with the only engine mod being and intake and modded resonators I got pulled over 3 times.
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      09-20-2012, 07:12 PM   #85
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Just an FYI re: Toronto ByLaws, if someone wanted an explanation straight from the Act/Chapter.

Quote:
Generally speaking noise falls into two categories:
Quantitative: Which means that the noise is limited to a pre-determined level, usually measured in decibels and;
Qualitative: Which means that the noise is a disturbance to a person, usually a resident, at their residence.
Currently, section 75 of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act (the Act) requires every motor vehicle (the definition of which includes a motorcycle) to have a muffler in good working order and in constant operation to prevent excessive noise. It also prohibits a driver at any time to cause a motor vehicle to make any unnecessary noise, including the alteration of a muffler.
In addition, section 195 of the Act states:
"That if any bylaw passed by a municipality to regulate noise, fumes or smoke created by the operation of motor vehicles is inconsistent with the Act, the provisions that create the inconsistency shall be deemed to be repealed".
In Toronto Noise issues are addressed under Toronto Municipal Code Chapter 591 Noise. Section 3 prohibits specific types of noise and paragraph (C) states:
"The operation of a vehicle, engine, motor, construction equipment, or pneumatic device without an effective exhaust, intake-muffling device or other sound attenuation device of a type specified by the manufacturer, which is in good working order, and in constant operation."
Both of these pieces of legislation treat noise from vehicles as Qualitative.
A bylaw that prohibits noise beyond a specified decibel range is inconsistent with the current provisions of the Act (and would be considered to be repealed) because under the Act even a noise that is below this threshold may be considered unnecessary or excessive and would be an offence.
Source: http://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgeb...001438900.html
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      09-20-2012, 09:25 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by spyderco10 View Post
In my experience most cops are actually pretty reasonable, unless you start arguing. I've been pulled over for various things over the years. In all cases I was respectful and admitted my wrongdoing and most times I was let go with a warning. The worst thing you can do is to argue your case and try to prove he's wrong and you're right. I don't think this has ever worked in the history of man, where the driver wins an argument, and the cop admits you're right and lets you go.

If you want to argue, save it for court. If you want the best shot at avoiding a ticket in the first place, be agreeable and don't argue. Police demand respect and submission, as they should because they are tasked with enforcing the law. And if you agree with them, then they got no further beef with you. Police put their lives on the line every single day to protect you and me from the scum of the earth, and they deserve our utmost respect and appreciation. I'm tired of reading posts that bash police. For those of you who hate cops, next time you're in trouble and need help, don't call 911. Just my .02
Agree about the job the police do, but that doesn't give them the right to treat everybody like a hardened criminal. The issue people have, myself included, is that if you are a victim of police abuse, verbal or otherwise, what are you supposed to do to defend yourself?

Since there are a number of LEOs on the forum, maybe one of you can chime in here. What is an ordinary decent citizen supposed to do if a police officer becomes abusive?
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      09-20-2012, 11:22 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderco10 View Post
In my experience most cops are actually pretty reasonable, unless you start arguing. I've been pulled over for various things over the years. In all cases I was respectful and admitted my wrongdoing and most times I was let go with a warning. The worst thing you can do is to argue your case and try to prove he's wrong and you're right. I don't think this has ever worked in the history of man, where the driver wins an argument, and the cop admits you're right and lets you go.

If you want to argue, save it for court. If you want the best shot at avoiding a ticket in the first place, be agreeable and don't argue. Police demand respect and submission, as they should because they are tasked with enforcing the law. And if you agree with them, then they got no further beef with you. Police put their lives on the line every single day to protect you and me from the scum of the earth, and they deserve our utmost respect and appreciation. I'm tired of reading posts that bash police. For those of you who hate cops, next time you're in trouble and need help, don't call 911. Just my .02
Agree about the job the police do, but that doesn't give them the right to treat everybody like a hardened criminal. The issue people have, myself included, is that if you are a victim of police abuse, verbal or otherwise, what are you supposed to do to defend yourself?

Since there are a number of LEOs on the forum, maybe one of you can chime in here. What is an ordinary decent citizen supposed to do if a police officer becomes abusive?
I've asked these questions before and get very little feedback. Liberty and freedom are usually given up for safety and security and that is when fear and resentment rule the day... Welcome to the 21st century
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      09-21-2012, 12:58 PM   #88
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In california, its illegal to modify your exhaust system to amplify noise. There is a secondary section if the sound is over 96 db for vehicles under 6,000 lbs, excluding motorcycles..... Sorry for the tickets....
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