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      09-12-2011, 07:22 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alms211 View Post
You must not know many that have owned them. Take a look in the for sale section on NAGTROC, Cars.com, autotrader, etc. There are plenty out there for sale for such a "limited production" car.... as some say

The car has fantastic performance numbers but there is so much more to a car than a lap time, a 1/4 mile or stoplight to stoplight race. I'm not knocking the car. I actually like it.............but not enough to buy one.
A lot of those are older cars. Those who buy a new GTR often have the $$ to change cars frequently. Many changed to a 2012. If it was all about numbers, critics and pros who drive the car wouldn't express how much they enjoy the car. In fact it was just ranked #2 on Motortrend's Best Driver's Car, only behind the 458.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...t_drivers_car/

ABOUT MOTOR TREND'S BEST DRIVER'S CAR

"What makes a great driver's car? Is it brute performance? Or gut-wrenching grip? What about balance and finesse, and the quality of the interaction between man and machine? We argue that a great driver's car has a chassis and powertrain and brakes and steering that enable the enthusiast driver to confidently explore the limits of its performance envelope, as well as his own. On top of all that, the best one also contains an X factor, a little something extra that elevates the breed.
Best Driver's Car is not a race. Numbers aren't everything. To get the fullest picture possible for each competing vehicle, we perform our normal battery of performance testing and real-world driving as well as racetrack performance. Yet, while on-track performance is just one piece of a larger puzzle, it's without question the most fun. Join us each day as we introduce the contenders, with track results and impressions by master driver Randy Pobst, all leading up to the crowning of the 2011 Motor Trend Best Driver's Car."
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      09-12-2011, 08:34 PM   #134
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I just saw the new top gear episode comparing the Jaguar XKR-S to the GTR. The GTR obliterated the 540HP jag on all counts. It also looked great in blue.

While it would be great with a manual offering, I regard the GTR as a more extreme version of the M3, perhaps with a little bit more towards the track and less so towards the luxury.

I cannot wait for the opportunity to test drive one.

On a side note, I know a guy who has a GT-R and HAD a track prepped E92. He wasn't the most experienced driver and after a few hot sessions in the GT-R, he jumped into the M3 and put it into the wall and totalled. It was on the entry to a relatively slow speed corner. I think he didn't adjust his driving style to rear wheel drive and take into account braking distances between the two cars.
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      09-12-2011, 08:38 PM   #135
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Kind of off-topic but people shout realize that super-fast cars like Lamborghini's and GT-R's must be auto/DCT cars in order to make the as safe and as fast as possible. I mean a manual transmission car wouldn't be very safe for driving if it's got 700 hp and 600 lb-ft torque. The shifters and clutch would constantly fuck up.
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      09-12-2011, 08:54 PM   #136
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McLaren F1, Pagani Zonda are two cars I can think of that comes only manual. What you're saying is true if your previous car is an automatic Civic.

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Kind of off-topic but people shout realize that super-fast cars like Lamborghini's and GT-R's must be auto/DCT cars in order to make the as safe and as fast as possible. I mean a manual transmission car wouldn't be very safe for driving if it's got 700 hp and 600 lb-ft torque. The shifters and clutch would constantly fuck up.
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      09-12-2011, 10:19 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by erio View Post
You believe the m3 handles better and the GTR has numb steering? Please elaborate on your short comment that is without question totally false. Have you driven it on the track or just formed an opinion based on a test drive and comments by those who are in denial because a Nissan outperforms and is 20-30k more expensive than a well equipped BMW M3? Please explain how it handles better than an AWD car that's in a completely different league performance wise. This goes against reviews from professional drivers and my personal experience as I own both. They are both great cars in their own way, but it doesn't make much sense to compare them. They serve different purposes.
People have their own opinions and I have mine. Ive driven a gtr and I think it's a piece of crap. I don't care how fast it is, it feels and sounds like shit from behind the wheel.
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      09-12-2011, 11:05 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
McLaren F1, Pagani Zonda are two cars I can think of that comes only manual. What you're saying is true if your previous car is an automatic Civic.

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Originally Posted by BMW//M View Post
Kind of off-topic but people shout realize that super-fast cars like Lamborghini's and GT-R's must be auto/DCT cars in order to make the as safe and as fast as possible. I mean a manual transmission car wouldn't be very safe for driving if it's got 700 hp and 600 lb-ft torque. The shifters and clutch would constantly fuck up.
No, this is what Lamborghini has said.
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      09-12-2011, 11:38 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by BMW//M View Post
No, this is what Lamborghini has said.
Maybe his first car was an automatic Civic?
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      09-12-2011, 11:40 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by KKM3 View Post
People have their own opinions and I have mine. Ive driven a gtr and I think it's a piece of crap. I don't care how fast it is, it feels and sounds like shit from behind the wheel.
And I've owned two and think its a great car. In nearly 30,000 miles I haven't even had so much as a hiccup from them.
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      09-13-2011, 12:57 AM   #141
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And I've owned two and think its a great car. In nearly 30,000 miles I haven't even had so much as a hiccup from them.
I'm very happy for you. To all m3 owners who want to change up, I highly suggest looking into a CPO Porsche 911 997.2, preferably the c2s coupe. I bought one after owning 4 m3's and couldn't be happier. The level of performance, refinement, feel, prestige, looks, and sportiness, are unparalleled IMO. Don't make the mistake of downgrading to a Nissan purely for performance stats. Buy a used CPO Porsche and u will fall in love with it. I guarantee it.
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      09-13-2011, 06:25 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KKM3 View Post
I'm very happy for you. To all m3 owners who want to change up, I highly suggest looking into a CPO Porsche 911 997.2, preferably the c2s coupe. I bought one after owning 4 m3's and couldn't be happier. The level of performance, refinement, feel, prestige, looks, and sportiness, are unparalleled IMO. Don't make the mistake of downgrading to a Nissan purely for performance stats. Buy a used CPO Porsche and u will fall in love with it. I guarantee it.

A GTR is not a downgrade by any means. I have had a 997.1tt and prefer the GTR hands down. I'm honestly bored with the same old Porsche design. I have driven 997.2s several times and in my opinion it's not much faster or refined compared with the M3. It's not much of an upgrade if you ask me. I actually prefer the M3.
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      09-13-2011, 06:31 AM   #143
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All of this back and forth is so hilarious.

The Nissan is a budget supercar. Those of you trying to compare a sport GT (the M3) to a supersport (GTR) just because the prices are relatively close are completely lost on what this car is. It is these debates why Nissan brought this car out. To once again shake and rattle the world of performance driving.

The GTR is not an upgrade or downgrade to the M3. It's the equivalent of owning a 328i then getting a 370Z. You're just moving to a completely different sports car group. You make trade-offs and you gain better abilities. This is why there is so much debate and confusion.

Most of you making this comparison are trying to treat the cars as if they are in the same category. They are not. Now the Porsche GT3 vs GTR vs Lambo vs Ferrari is a more accurate comparison in which you can truly appreciate the trade-offs Nissan made to break this group wide open. But to say the M3 is an overall better car is to show preference to a type of car category, not the cars themselves...
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      09-13-2011, 07:54 AM   #144
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I saw the gtr on top gear and it was faster than the ferrari gto around their track. Thats an amazing car for what its worth. The supercar giants will be heading back to the drawing board.
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      09-13-2011, 08:23 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KKM3 View Post
I'm very happy for you. To all m3 owners who want to change up, I highly suggest looking into a CPO Porsche 911 997.2, preferably the c2s coupe. I bought one after owning 4 m3's and couldn't be happier. The level of performance, refinement, feel, prestige, looks, and sportiness, are unparalleled IMO. Don't make the mistake of downgrading to a Nissan purely for performance stats. Buy a used CPO Porsche and u will fall in love with it. I guarantee it.

And you don't know what you're talking about. So typical of the conservsation to move to used cars when talking about a GTR.
Any Porsche in the same category as a a GTR is at least $30k higher.
And how is performance "unparalleled" when you just admitted the GTR is superior? BTW, I've owned an 325Xi, M3, X3, M6, X5 and X6M too. So don't blather on like I'm ignorant of BMWs. They're nice but frankly I have many more issues with my Bimmers than I have with my Nissans.
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      09-13-2011, 08:38 AM   #146
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I can't help but think that if Nissan were to slap a Infiniti badge on the GT-R, and artificially inflates the price by $50,000 to give potential buyers the illusion of grandeur, a lot of trash talking would disappear...
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      09-13-2011, 09:06 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KKM3 View Post
Don't make the mistake of downgrading to a Nissan purely for performance stats.
There is a difference between being a badge whore and car enthusiast.
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      09-13-2011, 09:40 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
There is a difference between being a badge whore and car enthusiast.
+10000 I've never cared about badges or status .. If the car is fun - I want to drive it! ... The GTR for me, is a special car...
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      09-13-2011, 10:44 AM   #149
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You'll never convince brand fan boys, regardless of the facts. I love cars, all of them (fast ones...), and want to try as many as possible (as finances allow... ) I don't particularly car for the styling of the GT-R or the interior all that much, but its resume speaks for itself. It is one of those cars that is a milestone in terms of performance for price. WGAS about "prestige" and all the other poseur shit, I have to laugh at those people.
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      09-18-2011, 10:17 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erio View Post
You believe the m3 handles better and the GTR has numb steering? Please elaborate on your short comment that is without question totally false. Have you driven it on the track or just formed an opinion based on a test drive and comments by those who are in denial because a Nissan outperforms and is 20-30k more expensive than a well equipped BMW M3? Please explain how it handles better than an AWD car that's in a completely different league performance wise. This goes against reviews from professional drivers and my personal experience as I own both. They are both great cars in their own way, but it doesn't make much sense to compare them. They serve different purposes.
You are missing the point I and several others are trying to make. There is absolutely no question that the objective performance of a GTR blows the doors off an M3 in all aspects from acceleration, to cornering, to stopping and everything in between.

For me, however, beyond a certain level of performance, I start to look at other factors in my decision to buy a car. The subjective feel of the driving experience, in many aspects becomes an increasingly important factor.

With regards to the steering, the M3's steering provides a greater "wired into your nervous system" feel than the GTR's steering. And no, the GTR isn't "numb" in comparison to some other cars, but it does not have the feel of the M3's either. Unfortunately, this is simply one of the compromises of AWD.

Compare even the steering feel of an AWD Porsche to it's RWD counterpart. You sacrifice a little steering responsiveness for the benefit of added traction.

In a car with as much power and torque as the GTR, you really do need AWD to get all that power to the ground effectively. I think a dual-clutch transmission is also beneficial when driving a car with so much muscle. However, some of the sensory experience is lost when you go to AWD, as it is when you go from manual to automatic (regardless of the underlying mechanism).

The GTR is a performance bargain at what it costs. But to get that performance bargain, you need to sacrifice somewhere, and the GTR sacrifices in its level of finesse and refinement. And...I'm not even bringing the styling into this as it is a subjective factor. It is really no different than a car like a Mitusbisho Evo or Subaru Sti that is just taken to a much higher level. Your last sentence makes the most sense. The M3 and GTR do serve very different purposes, and I agree that it makes little sense to compare them, although you can compare a few of the individual aspects.

For $90k, I'll take a used Aston Markin Vantage. Or even a built-to-order, fully loaded M3 with a little cash to spare
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      09-18-2011, 12:10 PM   #151
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You are missing the point I and several others are trying to make. There is absolutely no question that the objective performance of a GTR blows the doors off an M3 in all aspects from acceleration, to cornering, to stopping and everything in between.

For me, however, beyond a certain level of performance, I start to look at other factors in my decision to buy a car. The subjective feel of the driving experience, in many aspects becomes an increasingly important factor.

With regards to the steering, the M3's steering provides a greater "wired into your nervous system" feel than the GTR's steering. And no, the GTR isn't "numb" in comparison to some other cars, but it does not have the feel of the M3's either. Unfortunately, this is simply one of the compromises of AWD.

Compare even the steering feel of an AWD Porsche to it's RWD counterpart. You sacrifice a little steering responsiveness for the benefit of added traction.

In a car with as much power and torque as the GTR, you really do need AWD to get all that power to the ground effectively. I think a dual-clutch transmission is also beneficial when driving a car with so much muscle. However, some of the sensory experience is lost when you go to AWD, as it is when you go from manual to automatic (regardless of the underlying mechanism).

The GTR is a performance bargain at what it costs. But to get that performance bargain, you need to sacrifice somewhere, and the GTR sacrifices in its level of finesse and refinement. And...I'm not even bringing the styling into this as it is a subjective factor. It is really no different than a car like a Mitusbisho Evo or Subaru Sti that is just taken to a much higher level. Your last sentence makes the most sense. The M3 and GTR do serve very different purposes, and I agree that it makes little sense to compare them, although you can compare a few of the individual aspects.

For $90k, I'll take a used Aston Markin Vantage. Or even a built-to-order, fully loaded M3 with a little cash to spare
I have driven both cars extensively. I think the steering in the GTR, esp. the newer model, is at least as good as the m3. It's ATESSA AWD system is RWD biased sending most of the power to the rear wheels unless needed. It feels very RWD in nature. Some changes in the suspension also account for the better road feel.

I agree that some of the sensation is lost but that's simply the nature of a higher performance car on a the road. You are not going to get the same sensation at similar speeds as you have more control in a car that's more stable. One could also argue that a Mazda miata has more road feel. That's just because it's lighter and has lower limits. One could say a lambo or 911tt-s doesn't have as much "wired to your nervous system" or whatever you call it....as you do with a GTR. I don't see anyone one here complaining about how those cars take away the road feel and they chose an M3 "instead." The gtr gets picked on simply because it's price isn't as far from a new M3 compared to those other cars, it wears a Nissan badge, and performs on a much higher level. "Mitsubishi Evo taken to a higher level".....riiiiight...I don't think so I guess a lexus LFA is an IS-F taken to a higher level.

Why would you get a Vantage? They are more for badge fanatics or those who buy simply for the looks/styling alone....not a true enthusiast car by any means in my opinion. Different strokes for different folks. It's more a top down boulevard cruiser. They do sound nice. Again, another car that serves a completely different purpose. I personally like the 911s over a Vantage.

Last edited by erio; 09-18-2011 at 12:39 PM.
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      09-18-2011, 12:41 PM   #152
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Sorry but my advice is that life is short and if you can afford it and really want it then buy the damn GTR and have fun!
I agree.

If you want ultimate fast car of these two then no contest. They are indeed very different prospects. Relevant comp for the GT-R is 911 TT. The GT-R is a triumph of engineering to its function: max attack.

I love my M3 for being a wonderful all-rounder: comfy enough for DD; but press a few buttons, change rubber etc and it's good enough for a great outing on a track. For me it's a nicer place to spend time over long distance.

Maybe the analogy is this: there's that hot blonde you fall for and have a passionate affair with, and for that time she consumes your mind. But there's also the cute girl who makes you laugh; has a neat pair of legs; normal boobs; and she's working on her Masters. She's the one you marry as a keeper. It's nice to have the fling, though

FWIW, I'm one of those who like the GT-R, admire its purpose and the design- in its context - is consistent with both its history and purpose. Same for the M3.
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      09-18-2011, 12:59 PM   #153
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They are 2 completely different cars. It has always appeared to me that the M3 was a bumped up 3 series. You get all the features and comforts of the 3 series, now with more power, handling and appearance. (Even though M division tells you differently haha)

The GT-R is a purpose built performance car. Designed only with performance in mind. Interior and creature comforts are all in the car as a last minute thought. The leather inst even real , but the interior is still better than anything american. Not up to BMW standards of course. It is a car built on the soul mind set of blowing your mind. Every time I drive it, I still cant believe it is actually made by Nissan.

The GT-R will never appear to badge fanatics. Why do I know this? Because I also own a GT-R. I will tell you that no one on the GT-R forum owns a Aston Martin or a Bentley. lol Maybe a few exist, but I have never seen them! The surprising thing on the GT-R forum is that a majority of owners that have GT-Rs came from Vipers, Ford GT's, Z06's, Turbo Gallardos GT3's ETC. The extensive garages of users on there blows my minds. Especially the guys in the middle east!

There are very few people that make the switch from an M3 to GT-R. Why? Because most of them are looking for a daily driver. The GT-R is not a daily driver. Its is still brutal. I wont discuss refinement, interior, looks. My Carrera GT has the most basic stripped interior you could imagine, but some people seem to think it is "out of this world" because of exposed carbon fiber. Me, I would rather have leather, but that was not what the car was designed for.

The GT-R does something my Carrera GT, Ford GT, and R8 will never do, inspire you to drive it harder to the point you break it. It inspires so much confidence that you can literally push the car to 110% of its capability without any fears. Perhaps that is why people say the car is numb. It doesnt try to bite your head off or put you in the wall. The Carrera GT and Ford GT will do that! Those are cars I feel I have never been able to drive at more than 50%-75% their potential. I am the limiting factor in their performance. Nissan has overly refined the performance of the GT-R to make it so neutral and compliant that some purists will say it is numb.

I honestly believe the M3 is more deceptive in its "handling" The BMW's all have heavy steering feel. That is BMW. From my M3 to 750, they all have heavy steering and that reminds you of a very tight and grippy track car. Every person that has driven my M3 seems to comment about it in the first 5 minutes when pulling out of a parking lot.

If you can afford it go for it! Too many people on here say they would buy "this or that" for the money. New, Used, whatever it may be, no one elses opinion matters until you get in the drivers seat and how it makes you feel. I personally would never own an Aston Martin, Maserati, Jag, 911 (other than a GT3), or any car with a soft top. I think you can tell by my tastes
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Last edited by Optherion; 09-18-2011 at 01:04 PM.
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      09-18-2011, 04:01 PM   #154
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Apparently the GT-R isn't a very exciting car to drive; it's very performance orientated and all the reviews about it call it "serious." I don't really like serious, I like fun. That's why I'm getting an M3.
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