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      08-20-2011, 07:08 PM   #1
gthal
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HPDE insurance?

I know this has been discussed before but I thought I would put up a thread in case someone knows something that is new.

Is anyone aware of an insurance company that provides HPDE/track day insurance in Canada? All of the options you find online either are not available in Canada or shady. Although my insurance company has verbally told me that I'm OK at a driving school, I would like to get back up insurance for HPDEs and also start participating in non school events.

Does anyone know of anything?
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      08-20-2011, 07:25 PM   #2
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Haven't used them but someone I know in the insurance industry recommended these folks: http://www.kandkcanada.com/
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      08-20-2011, 07:28 PM   #3
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Haven't used them but someone I know in the insurance industry recommended these folks: http://www.kandkcanada.com/
Yeah, tried them but it didn't work out. I can't remember if it was lack of appropriate insurance or a crazy high cost... something tells me it was like $2,000 for a weekend
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      08-21-2011, 12:41 PM   #4
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I've been looking into this as well. I found this link: http://www.myautomotivehookup.com/Ho...Insurance.html and will give them a call tomorrow to find out the details. Based on what it says on the website, it isn't the greatest deal with a $500/day premium and $5,000 deductible for only $25,000 in coverage. Seems like they have some multiple day coverage that would be better value. The coverage is through a company called Ermis (i've personally never heard of them before).
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      08-21-2011, 06:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizzle View Post
I've been looking into this as well. I found this link: http://www.myautomotivehookup.com/Ho...Insurance.html and will give them a call tomorrow to find out the details. Based on what it says on the website, it isn't the greatest deal with a $500/day premium and $5,000 deductible for only $25,000 in coverage. Seems like they have some multiple day coverage that would be better value. The coverage is through a company called Ermis (i've personally never heard of them before).
I tried them on Jewlz's urging and got the royal runaround and to insure for Mosport it was over $500/day with a $10000 deductable with a max of $50000 coverage.I did not think this was a very good deal.I have a friend in the Hi Po marine business that has been trying get something together at a more reasonable cost and we did have a meeting with a British underwriter but that went noplace.
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      08-21-2011, 07:02 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I tried them on Jewlz's urging and got the royal runaround and to insure for Mosport it was over $500/day with a $10000 deductable with a max of $50000 coverage.I did not think this was a very good deal.I have a friend in the Hi Po marine business that has been trying get something together at a more reasonable cost and we did have a meeting with a British underwriter but that went noplace.
Doh! I really was hoping that this Ermis lead would go somewhere...

I'm going to call the broker that takes care of my D&O insurance, and see if he knows any other players in this field (or who might be interested).
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      08-21-2011, 07:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizzle View Post
Doh! I really was hoping that this Ermis lead would go somewhere...

I'm going to call the broker that takes care of my D&O insurance, and see if he knows any other players in this field (or who might be interested).

Ermis is getting a quote together for me now. I will update everyone with the result but it looks like less than promising based on the above comments. I will say they have been very responsive to email so far.
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      08-22-2011, 03:47 PM   #8
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FYI. My broker is an affiliate of Jones Brown, and is looking into what they can offer. He mentioned that they have done some 'non-traditional' motorsport coverage, and he'll find out if they're open to doing a small group. I'll let everyone know more when I do.

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      08-22-2011, 06:05 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by shizzle View Post
FYI. My broker is an affiliate of Jones Brown, and is looking into what they can offered. He mentioned that they have done some 'non-traditional' motorsport coverage, and he'll find out if they're open to doing a small group. I'll let everyone know more when I do.
Very much appreciated!!!
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      08-25-2011, 12:47 PM   #10
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I've been able to make a fair bit of progress on this front. Jones Brown does provide the kind of coverage that I think we're looking for. Basically, they provide coverage for HPDE, lapping events and some timed events. It is designed to cover damage to the vehicle on the track where regular car insurance may not be available.

In our preliminary conversations, the premium does seem high - 25% deductible with a $1,000 minimum premium for an individual with no cap on the value of the vehicle since the premium is based on the stated value. That being said, prior experience and having a group apply should help bring down some of the costs. I don't how many events the cost above covers. I am assuming its three since that is what I discussed with them to this point. The insurance will be valid throughout North America.

I'll be back in Toronto next week, and should have hard numbers to share with everyone then.
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      08-25-2011, 01:00 PM   #11
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I very much appreciate this info and look forward to hearing more.

I did hear back from Ermis. Insurance was 1% of the value of the car per track day if there is an instructor in the car. Plus a large deductible. So, the quote I received was as follows:

Insured value $85,000
Deductible: $10,000
Premium: $850/day with a 50% discount for the second day of a weekend.
Instructor must be in the car

There is a discount for multiple days. If more than 10 then it is $500 per day rather than $850.

However, based on this, it seems very high. Almost high enough to just self insure

Plus, I get nervous dealing with a company via email in France because I can only imagine the pain of filing a claim if something ever did happen!
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      09-01-2011, 12:51 PM   #12
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I heard back from Jones Brown, and the numbers are pretty high.

The amount insured is $75,000, with a deductible of $7,500 for each and every loss (you are not limited to one loss). For 12 events in North America, the premium is $9,000 and there is a no claim discount of 15% which gets applied to the next year. There is no requirement to have an instructor in the car.

I listed my experience as beginner/intermediate, anyone with more experience can expect a *slight* discount in the premium. All claims are done through Jones Brown, so claims are done with a Canadian company.
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      09-01-2011, 01:17 PM   #13
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I have a question, do you guys compete on track days, or are they just DE/Lapping days? For the latter, I understand there's a peace of mind knowing you're covered. But the trade-off to me is largely unbalanced. Unless you're not respecting your own limit, and what your instructor is teaching you, is this even necessary? But if you race competitively, then disregard my question, but then the quotes you're provided probably is going to change, too.
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      09-01-2011, 05:37 PM   #14
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I have a question, do you guys compete on track days, or are they just DE/Lapping days? For the latter, I understand there's a peace of mind knowing you're covered. But the trade-off to me is largely unbalanced. Unless you're not respecting your own limit, and what your instructor is teaching you, is this even necessary? But if you race competitively, then disregard my question, but then the quotes you're provided probably is going to change, too.
I personally only do HPDE/lapping events, no racing. However, the insurance I looked into does cover timed events if you choose to do it (I wanted to have only HPDE/lapping coverage, but they treat this all as racing).

I agree that as someone who only does HPDE/lapping events, the premium is excessive (I personally won't get it at that price). If it were a couple thousand as opposed to nearly $10,000, I would get it as a peace of mind thing. I agree that if you follow what the instructors teach, and you don't push your limits excessively, you reduce the risks. That being said, accidents can occur even when you're careful. I think gthal and I took this on as an exercise to see if there was reasonably priced insurance for folks like us.

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      09-01-2011, 06:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunnn View Post
I have a question, do you guys compete on track days, or are they just DE/Lapping days? For the latter, I understand there's a peace of mind knowing you're covered. But the trade-off to me is largely unbalanced. Unless you're not respecting your own limit, and what your instructor is teaching you, is this even necessary? But if you race competitively, then disregard my question, but then the quotes you're provided probably is going to change, too.
I think that even if you respect your own limits and listen to instructors, accidents can and do happen. Other participants who do something wrong, mechnical issue with the car, loss of concentration for a few minutes, etc... I would say that there is an "issue" at almost every HPDE I have attended. Most result in nothing serious (i.e. they simply run off on the grass) but things do happen. Admittedly, I have seen it happen more in the advanced run groups than beginner/intermediate because they are pushing closer to the limit.

Although I agree that at HPDE's where you are NOT timing yourself you would likely be covered by insurance, the issue is it is a little unclear. In the US, the insurance companies will often state that you are not covered if an accident happens on a track regardless as to whether it is a HPDE/lapping/race, etc. IMO, it is only a matter of time before the Canadian companies follow suit. The other issue is that even if you are technically OK, it doesn't mean the insurance company won't give you a very difficult time. There was an issue at a Porsche HPDE and the insurance company tried to deny coverage. It went to court and the driver ultimately won the case but I can only imagine it was not a cheap exercise.

For me, I don't like the uncertainty but there aren't any good options. Having said all of that, I think most people who know a lot about this would suggest you "should" be OK as long as you are not racing/timing. The Atlantic BMW club are very, very careful with how they set up their HPDEs to include class time, instructors, control passing and any timing/taping results in expulsion. This is done to protect against the insurance risk.

I call my insurance company each year and tell them what I plan to do and get them to note it on my file that we chatted and they OK'd me.
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      09-01-2011, 06:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizzle View Post
I personally only do HPDE/lapping events, no racing. However, the insurance I looked into does cover timed events if you choose to do it (I wanted to have only HPDE/lapping coverage, but they treat this all as racing).

I agree that as someone who only does HPDE/lapping events, the premium is excessive .. folks like us.
Quote:
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Although I agree that at HPDE's ...

I call my insurance company each year and tell them what I plan to do and get them to note it on my file that we chatted and they OK'd me.
Guys, by no mean did I mean to offend the idea of insurance for track days. It's great that Gthal is looking into this for the community. I just didn't understand the risk/reward in insurance for HPDE/Lapping events. That's why I asked my previous question. You don't really have to follow your instructors to be safe, you just have to respect the car and take steps at a time. Most of us here are probably smart enough to not chase the better driver in a slower car. I'm obviously not going fast enough or pushing the car enough in the events to care about insurance, but the moment I decided to track the responsibility is on me. The premium on its own is not that bad, I suppose, but the deductible is ridiculous, unless I plan to write-off my car every time, the damage is almost worth paying out of your own pocket.
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      09-01-2011, 07:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Guys, by no mean did I mean to offend the idea of insurance for track days. It's great that Gthal is looking into this for the community. I just didn't understand the risk/reward in insurance for HPDE/Lapping events. That's why I asked my previous question. You don't really have to follow your instructors to be safe, you just have to respect the car and take steps at a time. Most of us here are probably smart enough to not chase the better driver in a slower car. I'm obviously not going fast enough or pushing the car enough in the events to care about insurance, but the moment I decided to track the responsibility is on me. The premium on its own is not that bad, I suppose, but the deductible is ridiculous, unless I plan to write-off my car every time, the damage is almost worth paying out of your own pocket.
Sorry if my response sounded terse, I definitely didn't think you were being offensive - your question is perfectly valid. I think we all agree that the risk/reward for insurance on HPDE/lapping events *isn't* there. But there would have been no way to know this unless we actually went out and gathered the info. From my side, I was hoping my broker would be able to put a package together for a group that had a reasonable risk/reward, but it just wasn't there.

I seem to recall Jaypod telling a story about how a camera came off the hood of a car and caused a fair bit of damage to another. In both the Mosport DDT events I went to last month someone did go off the track (thankfully there was no damage in either incident). It's the stuff that's out of my control that would make me want to have insurance regardless of how 'safe' I may perceive my own driving to be.

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      09-01-2011, 07:11 PM   #18
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I appreciate people taking the time and effort to do some research and post the results here. I had not seen a concrete answer before, and now it's here.
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      09-01-2011, 07:13 PM   #19
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I can't imagine that would happen with any insurance companies, especially in Ontario. Every year they complain about the decrease in profits, when it's still in the billions. Oh, don't get me started about the ridiculous premium increases every now and then. I think what triggered my question is more on the fact that I have so much hate for Insurance companies. The thought of them doing anything remotely nice just blows my mind.
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      09-01-2011, 07:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizzle View Post
Sorry if my response sounded terse, I definitely didn't think you were being offensive - your question is perfectly valid. I think we all agree that the risk/reward for insurance on HPDE/lapping events *isn't* there. But there would have been no way to know this unless we actually went out and gathered the info. From my side, I was hoping my broker would be able to put a package together for a group that had a reasonable risk/reward, but it just wasn't there.
+1

For me, I just wanted to see if there was an affordable option to cover any risk that there would be an issue. If someone told me I could pay $250 for a weekend for HPDE insurance, it would absolutely be worth the piece of mind. At the prices available, it is too expensive relative to the risk for sure!!
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      09-01-2011, 07:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
For me, I don't like the uncertainty but there aren't any good options. Having said all of that, I think most people who know a lot about this would suggest you "should" be OK as long as you are not racing/timing. The Atlantic BMW club are very, very careful with how they set up their HPDEs to include class time, instructors, control passing and any timing/taping results in expulsion. This is done to protect against the insurance risk.
It's funny you mentioned the BMW club. In Ontario, the Trillium club now doesn't allow in-car video cameras now for insurance purposes!

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      09-02-2011, 11:08 PM   #22
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Just found some interesting info that indeed your street car insurance will indeed cover you at properly organized HPDE trackdays in Ontario.The insurance company also lost the appeal.

Carnell et al. v. Aviva Canada et al.
[Indexed as: Carnell v. Aviva Canada]


105 O.R. (3d) 429

2010 ONSC 6359

Ontario Superior Court of Justice,

Mullins J.

December 2, 2010*

Insurance -- Automobile insurance -- Exclusions -- Insured losing control of his vehicle while par-ticipating in driver education event at racetrack -- Event designed to teach participants to drive at higher speeds in controlled environment -- Racing and timing devices prohibited -- Insured not using automobile in race or speed test at time of accident.

The insured owned a modified Porsche. He was participating in a driver education event operated by the Porsche Club of America at a racetrack when he lost control and rolled the vehicle. Section 4.2 of Statutory Conditions -- Automobile Insurance, O. Reg. 777/93 prohibits use of an automobile in a race or speed test. The insured applied for a declaration that he did not fall within that exclusion at the time of the accident.
Held, the application should be granted.
The driver education event was designed to teach participants to drive at higher speeds in controlled environments. Racing and timing devices were not allowed, and there was no start or finish line. A race is a test between rivals. Factors common to a race are as follows: vehicles operating at high speed, in close proximity, over a fixed distance; abrupt lane changes; blocking; bold manoeuvres; jockeying for position; and high-risk passing. At the time of the accident, the insured was not en-gaged in a competitive activity that met the definition of a race, nor was he seeking to test the speed of his vehicle.

Cases referred to
Blackstock v. Insurance Corp. of British Columbia, [1982] B.C.J. No. 1480, 138 D.L.R. (3d) 563, 38 B.C.L.R. 339, 15 A.C.W.S. (2d) 387 (S.C.); Gore Mutual Insurance Co. v. Rossignoli, [1964] 2 O.R. 274, [1964] O.J. No. 758, 45 D.L.R. (2d) 216 (C.A.); [page430] McGuiness v. Canadian Gen-eral Insurance Co., [1976] B.C.J. No. 82, 66 D.L.R. (3d) 161, [1976] I.L.R. 1-740 at 106 (S.C.); Mildner v. Saskatchewan Government Insurance Office, [1962] S.J. No. 85, 40 W.W.R. 86, [1962] I.L.R. 1-076 at 367 (Q.B.); R. v. Flannery, [1982] O.J. No. 1885 (C.A.); R. v. Machado, [2010] O.J. No. 387, 2010 ONSC 277, 92 M.V.R. (5th) 58
Statutes referred to
Insurance Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. I.8 [as am.]
Rules and regulations
Statutory Conditions -- Automobile Insurance, O. Reg. 777/93 (Insurance Act), s. 4.2

APPLICATION for a declaration that the insured did not fall within the statutory exclusion at the time of the accident.

Bruce Jaeger, for applicants.
Andrew Davidson, for respondents.




[1] MULLINS J.: -- The applicants seek a declaration determinative of the applicant's claim for $51,250, pursuant to the terms of an automotive insurance policy issued by the respondent. The en-titlement depends upon the interpretation of whether or not the activities of the applicant Johan Carnell, at the time the loss, fall within the exclusion expressed in s. 4.2 of Statutory Conditions -- Automobile Insurance, O. Reg. 777/93 (Insurance Act). This prohibits use of the automobile in a race or speed test. The parties ask this court to determine the question on the basis of the material filed, there being no material issues as to fact.
The Facts
[2] The applicants owned a 1986 Porsche 911 coupe. The vehicle had been purchased in 1996 and modified in 2001, such that it was rebuilt to 3.3 turbo Porsche specifications. With the modification, the vehicle had an estimated output of 450 to 500 horsepower.
[3] On July 24, 2009, Mr. Carnell, while participating in an event at the Mosport International Raceway, lost control and rolled the vehicle. The vehicle was a total loss.
[4] Mosport International Raceway is promoted as a world renowned racetrack, designed to chal-lenge a driver's control over his car. It is a facility which permits high-speed operation of motor ve-hicles and features abrupt elevation changes combined with camber changes.
[5] The applicant is a member of the Porsche Club of America. The Porsche Club of America operates driver education events at the Mosport International Raceway and has done so since 1988. [page431] The applicant was operating his Porsche on the Mosport track during one of these events.
[6] The stated purpose of the events according to the Porsche Club of America is to deliver edu-cation and opportunity for the driver. It fosters safe and enjoyable exploration of a driver's skills and the performance characteristics of their automobile.
[7] According to the driver education handbook of the club, drivers are required to have helmets and have numbers on their car. Various flags are utilized regarding track conduct, including a checkered flag.
[8] The applicant describes the driver education events as closely monitored programs in which participants learn to drive at higher speeds in controlled environments.
[9] The events have rules regarding driving activities to address the safety of the participants and their cars. Racing is not allowed. Timing devices are not permitted. The events have no timing, scoring, start or finish line. Participants drive in designated groups of those considered to share the same level of skills. The type of vehicle is not a consideration in selecting the group, only the driver skills.
[10] The programs are designed to allow participants to learn and practise advanced driving skills. As the skill of the driver improves, the driver may progress to more advanced groups.
[11] The events are monitored by instructors, who are trained by the Porsche Club of America. Passing is only permitted in designated zones and only after the car ahead signals to the other ve-hicle that it may pass and on which side of the vehicle they should pass. The events are monitored by event officials to ensure the rules are being adhered to and to redress any breach of the rules.
[12] Mr. Carnell was participating in an instructor's session at a Porsche Club of America Driver Education event being held on the weekend when the loss occurred. He was driving between 90 and 100 kilometres per hour. It was 15 minutes into a 20-minute session. His crash occurred with no other vehicles in sight.
The Law
[13] The terms "race", or "speed test", are not defined in the Insurance Act. Each term may be considered to have different meanings. Mildner v. Saskatchewan Government Insurance Office, [1962] S.J. No. 85, 40 W.W.R. 86, [1962] I.L.R. 1-076 at 367 (Q.B.), cited by the respondent, says that a race is a contest [page432] involving speed, whereas a speed test connotes merely a test of speed. In Mildner, the driver was attempting to determine the maximum speed at which he could navigate the track, while taking practice laps before a race. There were no other vehicles on the track. In McGuinness v. Canadian General Insurance Co., [1976] B.C.J. No. 82, 66 D.L.R. (3d) 161 (S.C.), the plaintiff was considered to be in a speed test, as he was trying to determine the maximum speed at which his car could travel a measured quarter-mile.
[14] Blackstock v. Insurance Corp. of British Columbia, [1982] B.C.J. No. 1480, 138 D.L.R. (3d) 563 (S.C.) was cited to illustrate the significance of the event taking place on a racetrack or drag strip.
[15] Factors common to a race are vehicles operating at high speed, in close proximity, over a fixed distance; abrupt lane changes; blocking; bold manoeuvres; jockeying for position; and high-risk passing.
[16] A race is a test between rivals, according to R. v. Machado, [2010] O.J. No. 387, 2010 ONSC 277; Gore Mutual Insurance Co. v. Rossignoli, [1964] 2 O.R. 274, [1964] O.J. No. 758 (C.A.); and R. v. Flannery, [1982] O.J. No. 1885 (C.A.).
[17] Counsel agree that the rule of interpretation to be applied to an exclusion within an insurance contract is that it is to be strictly and narrowly interpreted.
[18] I conclude that Johan Carnell was, on July 24, 2009, when he crashed and rolled the vehicle insured by the respondents, exercising his driving skills in an environment which was, by design and intended purpose, such as to challenge his skills and the performance attributes of his vehicle. He was not, however, engaged in a competitive circumstance that would meet the definition of a race, nor was he seeking to test the speed of his vehicle, when and where he lost control and crashed. I find, therefore, that his conduct does not fall within the exclusion from coverage. The applicants are entitled to indemnity under the contract of insurance.
[19] Counsel may make submissions as to costs within 30 days.


Application granted.

Here is the appeal

http://kentglowinski2010.wordpress.c...inski_ontario/
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