BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion
 
PYSPEED
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-26-2011, 11:42 AM   #23
E90SoFlo
Banned
 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Naples, FL

Posts: 2,675
iTrader: (9)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith. View Post
I'd argue that Freedom from religion IS enlightenment.
I'd argue that if you don't want religion do what the gay's do, try to justify everything.
E90SoFlo is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 11:53 AM   #24
carve
Major
 
carve's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: usa

Posts: 1,098
iTrader: (0)

Lots of "no true Scotsmen" fallacies in here.

If you believe Jesus was the messiah, you're a true Christian. End of story. It doesn't mean you're a good one- just that you are one.

It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people do turn to religion after they go to jail, out of desperation.

When you think this life is a blip on the radar of your eternal existence and, more importantly, you think everyone elses life is too, you lose respect for life. It's just a game that you ultimately pass by believing the right stories and apologizing to God (NOT the vicitm) when you do something wrong. You decide what is right or wrong based on whatever you think God says, encouraging a might-makes-right attitude. This can also lead to rationalizations for all the atrocities God endorses, such as slavery, or the stoning of rebelious children, and the condemnation of victimless crimes, like blasphemy or homosexuality. I'll even include the core basis of the religion as immoral: punishment of offspring for the faults of their ancestors, human sacrifice, scapegoating, infinite punishment for finite transgression (and TORTURE no less) and the promotion of that which is unknown or even known to be false as fact (a little something we call fraud, and that I call "pissing in the fountain of knowledge").

When you think this is your only chance to exist, and the only chance for everyone else to exist, life becomes extremely precious. You're motivated to make a contribution to happiness and knowledge, leave the world a little better than you found it, behave in a way you'd have others behave to live in the kind of society you want to live in. You base your moral and ethical decisions on how the outcomes of your actions affect the well-being of others. Well, at least that's what you do if you're a true atheist



Quote:
Being Atheist I find really sad, Because you will never receive the happiness I do from the "religion", or the benefits I receive from it. Which really is sad, because if you did you would understand how awesome it really is.
Believe it or not, I understand the sense of awe you can have (I get it myself from time to time contemplating nature), and I appreciate the built-in social circle. I just care too much about whether my beliefs are true. I feel very sad that you have to believe that which is not evidently true to make friends and find happiness.

Last edited by carve; 08-26-2011 at 02:55 PM.
carve is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 12:04 PM   #25
Mr Tonka
Tonka.... Mr. Tonka
 
Drives: Exceptionally well :)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tampa, FL

Posts: 1,164
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith. View Post
Makes sense.. the less intelligent you are the more you rely on religion for your answers in life.
Ironic that you make a ignorant statement to try and prove your superior intelligence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith. View Post
I'd take it a step further and say childlike.
Funny that you think that avoiding porn addiction or resorting to fowl language is childlike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SoFlo View Post
I'd argue that if you don't want religion do what the gay's do, try to justify everything.
That statement doesn't help your argument.....
__________________
-Joe


"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." — Frédéric Bastiat
Mr Tonka is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 12:07 PM   #26
Mr Tonka
Tonka.... Mr. Tonka
 
Drives: Exceptionally well :)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tampa, FL

Posts: 1,164
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
Lots of "no true Scotsmen" fallacies in here.

If you believe Jesus was the messiah, you're a true Christian. End of story. It doesn't mean you're a good one- just that you are one.

It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people do turn to religion after they go to jail, out of desperation.

When you think this life is a blip on the radar of your eternal existence and, more importantly, you think everyone elses life is too, you lose respect for life. It's just a test that you ultimately pass by believing the right stories and apologizing to God (NOT the vicitm) when you do something wrong. You decide what is right or wrong based on whatever you think God says, encouraging a might-makes-right attitude. This can also lead to rationalizations for all the atrocities God endorses, such as slavery, or the stoning of rebelious children, and the condemnation of victimless crimes, like blasphemy or homosexuality.

When you think this is your only chance to exist, and the only chance for everyone else to exist, life becomes extremely precious. You're motivated to make a contribution to happiness and knowledge, leave the world a little better than you found it, behave in a way you'd have others behave to live in the kind of society you want to live in. You base your moral and ethical decisions on how the outcomes of your actions affect the well-being of others. Well, at least that's what you do if you're a true atheist





Believe it or not, I understand the sense of awe you can have (I get it myself from time to time contemplating nature), and I appreciate the built-in social circle. I just care too much about whether my beliefs are true.
haha you crack me up!
__________________
-Joe


"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." — Frédéric Bastiat
Mr Tonka is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 12:10 PM   #27
Wraith.
Captain
 
Wraith.'s Avatar
 
Drives: ED '11 Z4 35is
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle

Posts: 789
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SoFlo View Post
I'd argue that if you don't want religion do what the gay's do, try to justify everything.
Huh?
Wraith. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 12:17 PM   #28
solefald
Nigerian Prince
 
solefald's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 F25
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego, CA

Posts: 2,171
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
'11 BMW F25  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SoFlo View Post
Sorry about my miss spelling of the word Their and then. Wasn't a english major. But THANK YOU SO MUCH for showing me how poor of a speller I am by misspelling one word on the IntErWebS
Notice how I am from another country, and yet with English being my second language I can still spell better than you do.... without even going to college in US.
Btw, its "an english major"

Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SoFlo View Post
(Before I get called out, I do call myself a Christian, I do go to church and I'm very active in my church, I am not a perfect human, and I do sin, I do try my best to stay away from sin)

I don't know where you think that if you're not a Christian you are going to go to hell, or that we think of you less then moral.

I do think that if you live as "Christian" like as possible, You will live a pretty good life. Do good for yourself, and for others, Don't sin (do bad). And repent (say I'm sorry) for your mistakes. You will never get forgiveness (From yourself or others) If you don't ask for it.

Being Atheist I find really sad, Because you will never receive the happiness I do from the "religion", or the benefits I receive from it. Which really is sad, because if you did you would understand how awesome it really is.

The Religion has been made a mockery of because of all the people that will call themselves a "Christian" then go home and have affairs and watch porn while cussing at there tv. Thats not a Christian, Being Christian is not something you can just say "I'm a Christian" Its something you have to Prove to yourself and to others.

Actions always speak louder then words.
You are contradicting yourself. First you say that you sin, then you say that being Christian means that you "Don't sin (do bad)". Soooo, you are not a good Christian then?
Also I can't help but notice how you put "Do good for yourself" ahead of "for others, Don't sin". Are you putting yourself ahead of others and ahead of not committing sins? How selfish and un-christian like of you.

Now, about saying sorry for your mistakes... Are you saying that atheists are unable to do so and it's a quality that only Christians possess?

Don't be sad for us. We get our happiness and benefits from our lives, friends and families. We do not need someone to tell us what is right or wrong, because we are able to figure it out on our own.

Christian people having affairs and watching porn and cussing at their tv are just Christians who are being Christians to the best of their abilities... just like you. Didn't you say that you also commit sins? So, does that also make you a person who contributes to the mockery of the religion? It sure seems to me that way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
I get a couple of things from this:
or, and this is the most likely, people who make what seem to be troll posts about religion are actually looking for enlightenment. Yup, that must be it.
No, its not it. My post has nothing to do with trolling and has nothing to do with so-called enlightenment. I can guarantee you that whatever you call an "enlightenment" will not happen to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SoFlo View Post
I'd argue that if you don't want religion do what the gay's do, try to justify everything.
Ah! There we go. The good Christian-like behavior. When it doubt, bring up the gays to make your point! Speaking of which, don't you know that some Christians having gay children?


Btw, "gay's" does not work in the context of your sentence. The word you are looking for is "gays".
__________________

Last edited by solefald; 08-26-2011 at 12:44 PM.
solefald is offline   Vatican City State
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 12:24 PM   #29
Mr Tonka
Tonka.... Mr. Tonka
 
Drives: Exceptionally well :)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tampa, FL

Posts: 1,164
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by solefald View Post
Notice how I am from another country, and yet with English being my second language I can still spell better than you do.... without even going to college in US.



You are contacting yourself. First you say that you sin, then you say that being Christian means that you "Don't sin (do bad)". Soooo, you are not a good Christian then?
Also I can't help by notice how you you put "Do good for yourself" ahead of "for others, Don't sin". Are you putting yourself ahead of others and ahead of not committing sins? How selfish and un-christian like of you.

Now, about saying sorry for your mistakes... Are you saying that atheists are unable to do so and it's a quality that only Christians possess?
Just to be fair....

(all in good fun)
__________________
-Joe


"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." — Frédéric Bastiat
Mr Tonka is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 12:25 PM   #30
solefald
Nigerian Prince
 
solefald's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 F25
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego, CA

Posts: 2,171
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
'11 BMW F25  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
Just to be fair....

(all in good fun)
yep, i fixed that already but you quoted me too fast
__________________
solefald is offline   Vatican City State
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 12:31 PM   #31
Wraith.
Captain
 
Wraith.'s Avatar
 
Drives: ED '11 Z4 35is
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle

Posts: 789
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
Ironic that you make a ignorant statement to try and prove your superior intelligence.

Funny that you think that avoiding porn addiction or resorting to fowl language is childlike.

That statement doesn't help your argument.....
and you my friend cannot follow a line of thought from one line to the next. As quoted from S&C "But if I understand you correctly, you are saying that watching porn and cursing are sins, and I find that both silly and stupid." I was simply responding to how childlike that perception is in the greater scheme of things. Now you adding childporn addiction and your internal struggle to resist a swear word.. well that sounds like a personal problem.

As for your response to my first statement.. you're assuming that I haven't done time. Maybe i have first hand knowledge, that I was the underrepresented minority.

SoFlo: "I'd argue that if you don't want religion do what the gay's do, try to justify everything."
Get back in the game man, that statement was weak and didn't do you any favors.
Wraith. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 12:32 PM   #32
Mr Tonka
Tonka.... Mr. Tonka
 
Drives: Exceptionally well :)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tampa, FL

Posts: 1,164
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by solefald View Post
yep, i fixed that already but you quoted me too fast
hahaha I figured you'd catch at as soon as you hit submit.

You KNOW i'm reading everything I type like 5 times now!!
__________________
-Joe


"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." — Frédéric Bastiat
Mr Tonka is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 12:50 PM   #33
ScotchAndCigar
Banned
 
ScotchAndCigar's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 128i space gray vert
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England

Posts: 817
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
Funny that you think that avoiding porn addiction or resorting to fowl language is childlike.
I think we have a Freudian slip here. Nobody said "porn addiction", the statement was that watching porn and cursing were sins, and while a few adhere to this, most do not. Do we all sin everytime we watch a PG-13 or R rated movie? Do we sin when we curse in our everyday adult conversations, or in these forums? Most think not.

Personally, I could care less if you watched porn 24/7, as long as it didn't affect me. But there IS a sinner here, it's E90 with his comment about gays. Hey, if you want to believe something for yourself, go for it. But you don't have the right to infringe upon others' rights, that's a sin.
ScotchAndCigar is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 12:57 PM   #34
Mr Tonka
Tonka.... Mr. Tonka
 
Drives: Exceptionally well :)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tampa, FL

Posts: 1,164
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith. View Post
and you my friend cannot follow a line of thought from one line to the next. As quoted from S&C "But if I understand you correctly, you are saying that watching porn and cursing are sins, and I find that both silly and stupid." I was simply responding to how childlike that perception is in the greater scheme of things. Now you adding childporn addiction and your internal struggle to resist a swear word.. well that sounds like a personal problem.

As for your response to my first statement.. you're assuming that I haven't done time. Maybe i have first hand knowledge, that I was the underrepresented minority.

SoFlo: "I'd argue that if you don't want religion do what the gay's do, try to justify everything."
Get back in the game man, that statement was weak and didn't do you any favors.
I just found it funny that you chose the phrase "child like" to describe someone who thinks it's good to avoid watching porn and avoid using fowl language. No idea how you stumbled in to typing that last bit.

My first statement has no assumptions attached to it. Don't know or care if you've done time or not. The answers to those questions are quite irrelevant to this topic. The small number of people in this conversation makes any first hand prison knowledge or lack there of meaningless in regards to statistics. Your statement is ignorant because it implies that the more religious a person is, the less intelligent they are as well. I would assume that any intelligent person, Christian or Atheist would tell you that is not a true statement. There are plenty highly intelligent Christians and there are plenty of Atheists who are much less intelligent in the world.

It does sadden me to see any person, proclaimed Christian or not use the term "gays" in a sentence. (even in the incorrect possessive form ) The perceived spirit of that statement, in my opinion is wrong coming from anyone.
__________________
-Joe


"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." — Frédéric Bastiat
Mr Tonka is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 01:24 PM   #35
Wraith.
Captain
 
Wraith.'s Avatar
 
Drives: ED '11 Z4 35is
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle

Posts: 789
iTrader: (0)

No, you are correct.. my apologies. Makes sense now why i initially thought that an odd thing to say. My office is getting a little to busy now for me to keep contributing adequately.

So back to the core statement. Yes, I feel that any intelligent person who needs to rely on a piece of fiction, written and re-written throughout the centuries by whoever was in power at the time, is fooling themselves. I guess in a way it would be a great feeling to give up all to a higher power, like a warm cozy blanket.

Last edited by Wraith.; 08-26-2011 at 01:37 PM.
Wraith. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 01:34 PM   #36
HungHingHK
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: E92
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Socal

Posts: 47
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by solefald View Post
Have you?
I have. not long enough for me to convert but definitely long enough for me to realize what prison can do to people in ways you can never imagine
__________________
2008 BSM E92 335i.
HungHingHK is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 01:51 PM   #37
Wraith.
Captain
 
Wraith.'s Avatar
 
Drives: ED '11 Z4 35is
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle

Posts: 789
iTrader: (0)

Anyway, I need to get back to work.

Everyone please keep believing whatever makes you happy and that doesn't impinge on others... And thanks for the banter.
Wraith. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 02:18 PM   #38
Mr Tonka
Tonka.... Mr. Tonka
 
Drives: Exceptionally well :)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tampa, FL

Posts: 1,164
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
I think we have a Freudian slip here. Nobody said "porn addiction", the statement was that watching porn and cursing were sins, and while a few adhere to this, most do not. Do we all sin everytime we watch a PG-13 or R rated movie? Do we sin when we curse in our everyday adult conversations, or in these forums? Most think not.

Personally, I could care less if you watched porn 24/7, as long as it didn't affect me. But there IS a sinner here, it's E90 with his comment about gays. Hey, if you want to believe something for yourself, go for it. But you don't have the right to infringe upon others' rights, that's a sin.
No slip. Some people can't handle their porn. I'm sure that you're aware that a porn addiction doesn't start until someone watches some porn. For some, it's something they really struggle to give up. I happen to believe that watching porn a little or a lot can be damaging to a current relationship or future relationships. I view some free internet port like 99.99% of all other guys in this country. Maybe more than some, but likely less than most; either way i know that it has an adverse affect on my marriage, very small adverse affect, but adverse nonetheless.

I do believe it's a sin, but i also think it's wrong outside of a "religious belief". I think the negative affect it has on kids of this generation is enormous. The perceived value of females by males is steadily dropping and the perceived value of females by females is likely even lower. .... clearly this is an entirely separate topic. My point is that the perpetual cycle of having demand for young girls to take their clothes off for money is only making it easier for young girls to partake in taking their clothes off for money. One question, would it be affecting you if your daughter were making a living from doing porn? That's not a loaded question or anything, i'm just curious to know if you think you could disconnect from other peoples rights enough to be ok with your daughter doing that.

Our world has gotten so much smaller with the advent of the web. If you think that other peoples casual porn use or heavy porn addition doesn't affect you, you're mistaken. Any industry that large affects us all in some way shape or form. Indirectly in most cases, but it will affect yon in some way.

With regards to cursing, i believe that with it being more commonplace for kids as they grow up, it can lead to the lack of self expression which can lead to low self esteem which can lead to depression. If nothing else it certainly pleads to a lack of vocabulary. Almost invariably, when someone uses fowl language as part of their everyday speech, you'll find that person has a difficult time fully expressing their feelings and everyday thoughts. These things can and in most cases will affect their lives as they grow into an adult. I personally find it stimulating and refreshing when hanging out with my friends that don't curse. We almost always have more intellectual conversations than with our friends who tend to curse a lot.
__________________
-Joe


"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." — Frédéric Bastiat
Mr Tonka is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 03:22 PM   #39
ScotchAndCigar
Banned
 
ScotchAndCigar's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 128i space gray vert
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England

Posts: 817
iTrader: (0)

I agree with much of what you say; the porn industry is pretty messed-up, and the people involved are pretty messed-up, and no, I would not want my daughter involved. However, that doesn't mean watching it is a sin, and it's not necessarily bad for marriage, but that's not the point. Also, what you say about bad language has some truth as well, but again, we're deviating from the point.

I was aiming more for the Christine O'Donnell "no masturbation" pledge, as an example of bogus sin. There are a lot of things that are perfectly healthy and/or normal, which many religious people want you to believe is sinful. But my point was that these are all internal personal decisions, things that an individual can decide for themselves, which should not affect others.

But morality is about having the fortitude - without any self-interests dangling in front of you about the afterlife etc. - to do the right things by your fellow man. And that does not need to be attached to any specific religion.
ScotchAndCigar is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 03:34 PM   #40
Mr Tonka
Tonka.... Mr. Tonka
 
Drives: Exceptionally well :)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tampa, FL

Posts: 1,164
iTrader: (0)

We're on the same page.
__________________
-Joe


"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." — Frédéric Bastiat
Mr Tonka is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 04:41 PM   #41
ScotchAndCigar
Banned
 
ScotchAndCigar's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 128i space gray vert
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England

Posts: 817
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
I get a couple of things from this:

-Atheists are a statistically insignificant part of the general (and prison) population.
-The correlation between religious beliefs/training and doing prison time is so strong that sooner or later, all who believe must be headed for jail.

..wait a minute...

-Maybe it means people of religious "training" who don't follow their training, end up in jail.
or
-Atheists are overrepresented in the prison population
or
-People lie about religion and atheism

or, and this is the most likely, people who make what seem to be troll posts about religion are actually looking for enlightenment. Yup, that must be it.
Another brilliantly sarcastic and insightful post from oldarmy.
Where would we be without his sardonic wit?
ScotchAndCigar is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-26-2011, 06:10 PM   #42
carve
Major
 
carve's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: usa

Posts: 1,098
iTrader: (0)

carve is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:51 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST