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      08-19-2011, 04:23 PM   #23
nuzey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Mike @ Powerchip here - let me answer some questions:

The tune is 100% transparent. Meaning it is impossible for the dealer to determine that you have a tune. To them it looks like 100% factory software. In my 7+ years in this field, I have NEVER had a customer declined warranty service with our tune. And this includes more serious repairs that were always covered under warranty without a hitch. I've seen engines replaced, turbos replaced, etc.. all with the tune still in there, and after the repair work is done the dealer has delivered the car back to the customer with the tune still there!

As far as the CEL light coming on while the tech was in the car - Our tune does not turn off the CEL light. If the customer request the CEL be removed for high flow cats, we ONLY remove checking for that particular function. This means that any other faults will cause a check engine light. The check engine light coming on in front of the tech was factory programming and is not due to the tune. Not to mention, if you had the Stage I tune your emissions programming was left stock, as only the Stage II variant removes the cat checking functions.

In fact, before the E9x M3's came out, there was a problem with FACTORY software where the CEL would be illuminated at random points, and no faults were stored. This happened to my car twice, and was fixed in subsequent BMW software revisions. I brought it to the dealer and complained about it and of course they said that no faults were found.

ISTA/P xx.x is the software level of BMW's packaged installations. It in a sense matches up with the software integration level. The latest ISTA/P dealer software is ISTA 42.2.0.0 to my knowledge. This should being your integration level to E89X-11-03-511. The integration level my car came with (called plant integration level) was E89X-07-12-515. Although I was already at E89X-09-06-510 due to previous updates between my purchase and the latest update.

The newest ECU program number is 7846396 which is part of ISTA/P 42.2.0.0

You have no reason to fear the the dealer will detect you have a tune, even with your CEL illuminated. It will interface with the dealer/BMW systems in the exact way as a factory stock tune, and there are no hints or tips that would indicate you have software other than you verbally admitting it to them (Which you should never do!).

If in fact you wanted your CEL to be turned off all together, we can do that. However, I strongly caution against this programming as there is no reason to mask problems that may arise other than the cat efficiency checking.

A couple other things to note:
1) The tune DOES NOT raise fuel pressure! Nothing in our code changes that. Tuners simply alter "maps" such as fueling maps, timing maps, vanos control maps, throttle response maps, etc.. Nothing in there would have a direct influence on fuel pressure. Chances are your sensor went bad, which caused an incorrect reading to be sent to the ECU, and this is why the pressures were off.

2) Everyone that says "you're lucky the dealer didn't find out about the tune": Not to be rude, but you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Please chime in when you know more about the technical aspects of this situation.

3) Flashing cars back to stock (unless you use factory dealer equipment or the equipment that I have from BMW AG), even with evolve, ESS, whoever - STILL LEAVES TRACES! There are patches that are applied to be able to write to the factory ECU. When you flash back to stock all off the mapping goes back to stock, but there are still changes present. However, this isn't an issue as I mentioned as there is no way for them to "check" your code. This is WAY over the dealers head. I flashed my sunroof module with the latest software version, and it literally crippled the dealers computer. It said my module was failed and had to be replaced. The dealers systems are by no means expert systems. In fact, they work within a very small framework that doesn't allow them to do ten percent of what I can do with my factory tools from Germany.

4) You can have a tune and your warranty. Every BMW I've owned has had software (E36 M3, E46 M3, E60 M5, E90 M3, even my E32 7 back in the day) - all dealer maintained without any issues whatsoever. I have never had even ONE customer denied coverage. I don't see any reason to put the car back to stock before warranty service. It's a waste of time since there is nothing they can see anyway. Now if they are raising a fuss or are suspicious of you, then that might be a good reason to go back. But regardless, it will still leave traces that are also undetectable by the dealers.

Hope this helps, and please feel free to ask any clarifying questions.
Of course I denied when they asked me if I tuned the car, because I believe they will never find out. Yeah I have no clue about the technical issues, I just know they did program the car and it felt slightly different than before. So you think my car's sensor was the one causing the CEL right? I am not sure on this so please by no means I am blaming you Mike. I had always believed that the tune will not cause a CEL because it never happened before to me. It happened right when I was in the dealership and they popped the "Do you tune your car?" question. That was why I became curious. I know lots of people have both the tune and warranty and I know I can have them too but I just think I am the unlucky guy. Do you think those codes they put in the car removed the tune? In your opinion, is the tune still in the car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
the interesting thing is the only way you say you knew it was detuned was by engine idle sound and doors not unlocking. nothing mentioned about performance or driving feel
Yes. I don't go to track nor speed. I drive normally like other cars on the street within speed limits. Of course I do let the beast in my car out once in a while but the last time I did that was months ago. All I know was that the exhaust note changed. My car always had this loud and aggressive tone after reaching 3k rpm (that's when I usually shift). After I got the car back from the dealership, I shifted normally by listening to the exhaust note but to find it was way above 3k rpm, like about 5k rpm when I shifted to next gear. So now I have to adapt to a different tone from the exhaust at 3k rpm in order to shift like how I used to.

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Originally Posted by ///M Ryder View Post
Ask your tuner to re-flash your car or find a Dinan dealer......problem solved............Phil
I might just go to Dinan
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      08-19-2011, 04:33 PM   #24
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This is why I don't do performance mods. Sorry for your trouble, OP - but I think you have to factor this as the 'cost of doing business'.
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      08-19-2011, 04:33 PM   #25
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Problem Solved!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuzey View Post
I shifted normally by listening to the exhaust note but to find it was way above 3k rpm, like about 5k rpm when I shifted to next gear. So now I have to adapt to a different tone from the exhaust at 3k rpm in order to shift like how I used to.)
This is simply my own observation, and I sincerely do NOT mean any offense by this... but I do believe you are driving the wrong type of BMW. Based on your own description of your driving style, I'd like to whole-heartedly recommend that you trade-in your M3 for a 335d.
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      08-19-2011, 04:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Alexander View Post
This is simply my own observation, and I sincerely do NOT mean any offense by this... but I do believe you are driving the wrong type of BMW. Based on your own description of your driving style, I'd like to whole-heartedly recommend that you trade-in your M3 for a 335d.
I am a student in a college town where stop signs are everywhere. Doesn't make sense if I keep going fast and slowing down looking like a retard trying to show-off. If I go on the highway, then yes I do go fast, but I don't like going highway with my M3 because I take good care of it. I have a Honda CR-Z if I want to go on the highway. Can we stay on topic? It's my own choice if I want a M3 or a 335. Thanks and cheers.
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      08-19-2011, 05:31 PM   #27
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To all the people telling him to get a 335, etc, etc... MOVE ON.

it's a waste of space here. Who cares how he found out he car drove differently. Who cares if it putts around town at 20 mph in an M3 to drive .4 miles to work. Thats not the issue at hand.

OP: Part of my post was not directed at you. I know you are just trying to understand what happened earlier. Part of it was geared toward those who said "You're luckly they didn't find your tune" - It's expected that they will not find your tune.

The CEL was certainly caused by the malfunctioning sensor.

You car is definitely back to stock now. The fact that they programmed CAS means they programmed every other control unit, erasing anything you had in your DME (engine control unit), and the other modules.
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      08-19-2011, 05:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
To all the people telling him to get a 335, etc, etc... MOVE ON.

it's a waste of space here. Who cares how he found out he car drove differently. Who cares if it putts around town at 20 mph in an M3 to drive .4 miles to work. Thats not the issue at hand.

OP: Part of my post was not directed at you. I know you are just trying to understand what happened earlier. Part of it was geared toward those who said "You're luckly they didn't find your tune" - It's expected that they will not find your tune.

The CEL was certainly caused by the malfunctioning sensor.

You car is definitely back to stock now. The fact that they programmed CAS means they programmed every other control unit, erasing anything you had in your DME (engine control unit), and the other modules.
Sigh this really made my day worse. Thanks for confirming though. So nobody had this issue before? I thought sometimes the dealer flashed your unit back to stock when they try to diagnose any problem. Now I might just go back to stock. Do you happen to charge the customer again if this happened to them? I might want to get it flashed again lol. Really want to get that exhaust note back. I never know the difference between tune and stock is that noticeable
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      08-19-2011, 06:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
OP: Part of my post was not directed at you. I know you are just trying to understand what happened earlier. Part of it was geared toward those who said "You're luckly they didn't find your tune" - It's expected that they will not find your tune.
Hi Mike. Your input is appreciated, especially considering you know more than 99% of us here on this issue. I do have a question. You seem very confident that the dealer would not find evidence of a tune. Why is it that both Evolve and ESS have suggested that if there was a major issue with the engine and BMW investigated that they would be able to detect a tune. Maybe the distinction is that the dealer could not find it unless they had BMW involved? Anyway, if you could clarify it would be appreciated as other tuners don't seem to be as confident (or at least won't put it in writing here) that you would never have a warranty issue.
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      08-19-2011, 06:28 PM   #30
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Quote:
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I somehow fail to see the big deal here... Sound like you have a bad sensor (no big deal.. I'm rocking one right now myself ), and you need your car flashed again. What's the big bummer here?
No biggie, just frustrated, wanted to tell you guys dealerships can detune your car to stock and if they need an extra day, say no! lol. I also wanted to hear what Mike has to say about the issue.

Quote:
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Hi Mike. Your input is appreciated, especially considering you know more than 99% of us here on this issue. I do have a question. You seem very confident that the dealer would not find evidence of a tune. Why is it that both Evolve and ESS have suggested that if there was a major issue with the engine and BMW investigated that they would be able to detect a tune. Maybe the distinction is that the dealer could not find it unless they had BMW involved? Anyway, if you could clarify it would be appreciated as other tuners don't seem to be as confident (or at least won't put it in writing here) that you would never have a warranty issue.
I vaguely remember how but I think he does it differently than other tuners out there. Something about detuning it to unlock BMW ECU before doing the flash is what most tuners do which is traceable
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      08-19-2011, 07:56 PM   #31
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Just get a reflash and enjoy your car
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      08-19-2011, 08:14 PM   #32
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      08-20-2011, 12:46 AM   #33
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I guess to play it safe, a Dinan flash would be the way to go?

What companies offer a re-flash in case BMW Service brings a cars tune back to stock?
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      08-20-2011, 01:09 AM   #34
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I guess to play it safe, a Dinan flash would be the way to go?

What companies offer a re-flash in case BMW Service brings a cars tune back to stock?
How is that safer? Dinan will warranty your engine if something happens as a result of their parts, but the dealership will not. You'll end up in essentially the same place as the OP, since the dealer is just as likely to void your warranty with Dinan as they are with Powerchip or any other brand.
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      08-20-2011, 01:14 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Hi Mike. Your input is appreciated, especially considering you know more than 99% of us here on this issue. I do have a question. You seem very confident that the dealer would not find evidence of a tune. Why is it that both Evolve and ESS have suggested that if there was a major issue with the engine and BMW investigated that they would be able to detect a tune. Maybe the distinction is that the dealer could not find it unless they had BMW involved? Anyway, if you could clarify it would be appreciated as other tuners don't seem to be as confident (or at least won't put it in writing here) that you would never have a warranty issue.
Thank you.

To answer your questions:

If there is a major issue, it's always good to go back to stock. However, it's very unlikely that they would ever find an ECU tune as the culprit for whatever problem is at hand.

What the OP experienced - a sensor error, is by no means a major issue. It happens all the time on bone stock cars.

If BMW was involved and they did suspect foul play (which there is no reason to in the first place), there is potential that they could find out about it. It's not easy though and would require time and money investment on their part. It's sort of like chasing a goose. Unless there is something directly pointing to a flash, there is no reason to suspect it. A check engine light coming on is obviously normal operation if something called for it to illuminate.

My CEL came on a few weeks ago and it turns out something hit my post cat 02 sensor under the car. Even though my car is programmed to ignore readings from that sensor, the sensor still has to be in good shape and intact or it will still throw a CEL.

CEL's are supposed to be set for a reason, and the tunes retain all of this programming. Now, a different story all together, is a strange code being thrown, or an internal DME fault code which would indicate foul play. There are checks that the ECU goes through and if those checks are failed it will almost be a dead giveaway. Anything else is well within operating spec and you would want the light to come on if something is awry. Usually the dealer will just flash the ECU when they have no clue how to fix it, which wipes the tune out anyway.

The only car I've heard of having it's warranty voided was a car in Singapore. The guy had a tune that he would not disclose and dropped a valve on the track. They refused to pay for the engine in this case.

However, in the US, I honestly can't see something like this happening unless there was a clear indication that the tune caused issues. And if it worked for the first week, it will probably work for the life of the car. There is always the chance that incorrect programming could cause errors in different climates or conditions, but if you leave it to a professional, that should never happen.

Going back to stock is an added layer of protection, but it's not really back to stock. There are flash counters that will be incremented, potentially a UIF write, and the program side of the ECU is locked from OBDII access, so to get around stuff like that you would need to bench program (BDM) the ECU. And that will leave physical signs of tampering which is even worse..

Also, the piece of mind that people get with a Dinan tune is a joke.. It's the same thing as with any other aftermarket tuner. It's ridiculous to say that a tune caused an issue with a car unless the programming is off. Drastic changes will cause this, and tuners that don't know what they are doing and hunt around and go "Oh, maybe this is it, let me try to modify this", instead of having the proper files which indicate what these locations actually do, and how they affect other ECU functions.

Downgrading to an earlier software version is more of a giveaway, however, this can be a difficult one too for them to notice depending on whether or not the UIF is written to the car. The UIF is a 'directory' of software revisions the car is programmed with. I can write files all day long without writing the UIF and it will appear that the original software version was still in there even though the code has been modified. It comes down to how much BMW wants to invest in denying a claim. If there is no reason to suspect a tune (as there shouldn't be), warranty coverage shouldn't be an issue.

OP: If you'd like to be re-tuned on our latest software version which contains some new power adders, let me know. The cost will simply be the re-flash fee, and you will get the latest and greatest programming. Totally up to you. I can check the software versions and make sure everything is up to date (ista 42.2). If something is not up to date, I can update it to the latest BMW version. The good thing about it is that I can do it selectively, which the dealer can not do. It's either all or nothing on their systems. There is a programming part and a coding part. Even if the dealership programs one module, they have to code the rest of the car. So if they programmed your ECU, the CAS gets recoded anyway which is why you lost your door locking functions. See the coding list in my signature.

Hope this helps..
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 08-23-2011 at 08:37 AM.
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      08-20-2011, 04:50 AM   #36
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That is great explanation and much appreciated.
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      08-20-2011, 09:55 AM   #37
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Thanks Mike.

Yeah I would guess BMW always programmed the car to stock if they can't find out what happened to the car. It's one of their trial and error solutions. Unfortunately enough, I am the victim in that.

Mike, I will have to see about reflashing my car because I have to transport the car soon to Vegas. Maybe I will see you in Cali in a few weeks time?

On a side note, I never know Dinan tune will void your warranty too? I thought it is supported by BMW.
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      08-20-2011, 10:22 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuzey View Post
Sigh this really made my day worse. Thanks for confirming though. So nobody had this issue before? I thought sometimes the dealer flashed your unit back to stock when they try to diagnose any problem. Now I might just go back to stock. Do you happen to charge the customer again if this happened to them? I might want to get it flashed again lol. Really want to get that exhaust note back. I never know the difference between tune and stock is that noticeable
This can really happen anytime there is any problem. Example: my wife's 328ix had one headlight misaligned. They could not fix it with the computer. So they submit a PUMA case to Germany. They reflashed her entire car - everything. So even in the case of something simple, you may end up with your car getting programmed for 8 hours. Her programming actually failed a couple hours in, and they had to restart it - car was at the shop from 8-5. On the plus side, she got cool new navigation software : )

I have a evolve tune and some custom coding I did myself. I always know there is a chance I will have to re-do the work if the dealer needs to reflash the car.
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      08-20-2011, 10:34 AM   #39
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Do you guys think I can prevent them from flashing the car back to stock if I tell them not to? This is because I don't want them to screw up my custom codings such as door unlocking and the coded LCI tail lights. I think my LCI tail lights are now back to blinking again when I start the car

I am sure the dealership knows I coded the car because of the doors unlocking by itself. But I think this is fine since they never made a big deal out of it? I had serviced my car there for at least 5 times now and they were okay with it. It was only the latest visit that made them suspect I did a tune because of the faulty sensors
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      08-20-2011, 11:01 AM   #40
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Sure, why not... I tell my tech not to touch the software - no problems.
Thanks, I will do that in the future.
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      08-20-2011, 12:13 PM   #41
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisesoul View Post
Sounds like they reflashed it with factory software. Install the software again!
I don't know if I have to pay to program it again. I might just live with it. Sigh.
I think its $150 to get it flashed back once you're in the system for paying the full price previously
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      08-20-2011, 12:51 PM   #42
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So this is really not funny. My trunk can't be opened now. When I tried to unlock, it made two/three clicking noises and it can't be opened. Now my dashboard tells me that I did not close the trunk completely. Anyone has this issue happened to them before? If it helps, I am using Vorsteiner trunk, don't know if it can cause this issue. Might try to video it and put it here. I am going to call my SA and have it checked again
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      08-20-2011, 01:10 PM   #43
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I forgot dealer is closed at this time. Got to wait till Monday to have it resolved I'll always tell the dealer from now on not to do anything to the software. I hope you guys do the same too.

Here's the video:
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      08-20-2011, 03:02 PM   #44
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What if you try the physical key? It's up above the license plate.
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